Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

It's April 1st and our book discussion this month is See Now Then: A Novel by Jamaica Kincaid. The discussion this month will be led by Michael. Here's a bio, review and interview for your pleasure:

Here's a rather extensive bio from the University of Minnesota:

http://voices.cla.umn.edu/artistpages...

NY Times book review:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/boo....

Here's a short but rather candid interview on NPR's All Things Considered (audio):

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/03/1730861...

Take it away, Michael!

Hello everyone and welcome to April!

Thank you Columbus for starting things off and for giving me the chance to lead the discussion this month. I will attempt to fill the worthy shoes of those who have gone before me! I have already started reading this book, and I think this group will have a lot to say about it!

Columbus has provided some great links. I have noticed that the great majority of biographical information (including the University of Minnesota piece) all stop in 2002, which is when she published her last book. This is frustrating, because I've read a lot of controversy about whether See Now Then: A Novel is autobiographical of the falling out with her ex-husband, which happened in the last 10 years.

Here is another interview article I liked, and it adds some of the recent biographical information to the mix:
NYT Article: Never Mind the Parallels, Don’t Read It as My Life

Also, here is a transcript of that NPR interview in case you prefer text:
NPR: Interview Transcript

Finally, an audio presentation that I haven't had a chance to listen to yet, but includes a reading from her book:
Audio of Symphony Space Book Reading, Discussion and Audience Questions

That's a lot of info!, but don't worry if you don't have time to review everything, I will quote any media that I refer to in the questions later in the month.

Before we get into the meat of the book, can I hear from any of you out there who are planning on participating? Has everyone been able to locate a copy of the book? Have any of you started (or finished!) reading it yet??

Looking forward to the discussion,
Michael

Finished! Really looking forward to discussing this most unusual book. I'm just curious to hear if this style of writing is typical for her, or, as in the case with Zadie Smith's NW, a new creative style she's experimenting with. Never read Kincaid before but heard wonderful things about her as a writer. A couple of years ago I attempted to read My Brother but after the first couple of chapters it really didn't catch on for me. So, would like to hear what others think.

Also, listening to and reading the interviews with Kincaid, I'm a little surprised at her shock or idea that one could believe this story is autobiographical. Especially when almost everthing about her storied marriage and family life appears to be within these pages. It comes off a bit disingenuous to me. Am I alone in feeling that way? is there a counter?

I am in. I downloaded the Kindle version. I am starting my read tonight.

Me too. I found a copy at my local library and began reading it tonight. I do plan on participating...at least bit more than I was able to last month. Looking forward to following the discussion!

Columbus - I echo both of your questions. I will humbly admit this is the first of Jamaica Kincaid's works I've read, so I am wondering the same thing about her writing style. So far it is proving challenging to me but also poetic and lulling.

I felt the same way about her interviews and her protests against the autobiographical nature of See Now Then (see the NPR interview for some examples of this). Elsewhere I read a quote that was something like "Why would (my ex-husband) be mad, it's not about him?" and it seemed a bit naive, but another quote was something like "It's true but it's also a lie, it would not hold up in court" I am more prone to believe that take on it (I apologize if these quotes are not exact, I can't seem to find them again). As a writer, maybe she focuses more on the fictional aspect, the creation, and the autobiographical stuff is more of a framework and so she thinks of it as peripheral. She admits to the parallels but seems more bothered by the phrases "autobiographical" or "it's about your life", so maybe she is starting with different definitions than what we are expecting.

Rebecca/Kanita - glad to have you in the discussion!

Anyone else out there reading who wants to check in?

I have read and enjoyed all of Jamaica Kincaid's work before this book.

I will be interesting in hearing thoughts of others - especially since many have so far mentioned that this is their first Kincaid book.

From reader/reviewers comments so far - there does not seem to be a middle ground - either you liked or you did not.

This was one of the books that I anticipating reading.
And started reading when the book first published.
Not sure what it was or if it was a combination of factors that I did not finish this book.This was before I knew it was to be the BOM. If I had picked up when it was BOM - I probably would have finished.

- Stream-of-consciousness is probably one of my least fav literary techniques so I have to be fully engaged in a storyline
- It seems there was a lot of repetitive phrasing in the beginning
- it felt like I was just reading words
- it could be this was not the book for me to read at this time - that has happened to me with a couple of books that I have picked back up at a later date
- Since I liked all of the author's previous work - I thought that not unusual that you occasionally not like one of the author's books. And I will read future books by this author.

Beverly wrote: "I have read and enjoyed all of Jamaica Kincaid's work except for this book."

Do you mean you haven't read this one yet? Or do you mean it is the only one you read and didn't enjoy?? :o

I didn't enjoy this book. It struck me an experiment which didn't work out. I respect failed literary experiments more than cookie cutter successes, but still, I hope Kincaid's next book is more like Lucy than See Now Then. I'm cutting and pasting my review below.

This book just did not do it for me. I am a fan of Jamaica Kincaid from previous novels so my hopes and expectations were high. Even had they been low, See Now Then still would have fallen short of them. Nothing that I disliked about it is unintentional. It wasn't a case of poor execution. Kincaid wrote this story in the manner that she did with purpose that simply did not appeal to me. The constant repetition of certain words/phrases did little to lull me in. This is a short novel, coming in at under 200 pages. If the repetition was minimized to a more customary amount, the word count of See Now Then probably would not even qualify for novella status. It would have to make due with categorization as a long short story. There is no plot to speak of. Kincaid's goal is not to tell a tale so much as to invoke a mood. The mood is that of hatred. A man hates his wife, his family, his life. We aren't told why specifically, except towards the end when we're informed that the wife was condescending and mean spirited to a waitress. I suppose there is no why. Once you fall out of love with someone and yearn to be with someone else, anyone else, you feel like a prisoner who of course loathes the jailer. But the narrative isn't about the event with the waitress or any other one in particular. It's about a woman being aware that the man she loves does not love her in return, and eventually he does something about it. And it's about the relativity of time, how Now and Then are basically one and the same, a point repeated ad nauseam. We know that the wife is aware that the husband is unhappy in their marriage from not much after the first sentence - a very long one, as the vast majority of them are, yet another characteristic that I didn't find endearing. The rest of the book serves only to reinforce this point. Gorgeous language can carry a non plot driven story a long way, but I wasn't so swept away by Kincaid's prose that I didn't notice or care that nothing was really happening. Not externally. Not internally. Not at all. I don't care to what degree this or any other novel may be autobiographical. I only care if I was absorbed by the tale, if I came to care about the characters. I was/did not. This is a subjective opinion, as they all are. You may love this book, and if you do, I promise not to hold it against you. :-)

Michael wrote: "Beverly wrote: "I have read and enjoyed all of Jamaica Kincaid's work except for this book."

Do you mean you haven't read this one yet? Or do you mean it is the only one you read and didn't enjo..."

Sorry Michael - I hit the post button before I finished my thoughts - I have edited the posting for more info.

Thanks Roy, Beverly & Lori-Linell. I feel comfortable now tackling one of her other books. I wanted to finish this book to discuss it with the group, however, if I were reading it on my own it would've been placed in either my "did not finish" or "to be continued later" pile. All of that being said, it didn't take long after starting to realize she's a writer of immense talent. It just appeared at times her desire to paint Mr. Sweet (who resides in the Shirley Jackson house - for the 80th time) as this demon soul (and who utterly despised her), that it just all got the best of her.

Roy: thanks for the review I thought it was spot on. And yes, it is just south of 200 pages but it appeared to be much longer.

This is my first Kincaid. Nothing is predictable or balanced at this point. I would say the reading has me cringing a bit so far. Do you think she wants us to remember who resides in the Shirley Jackson house and the banana boat? I can see pitching this book? Can we take another depressing book after reading Twelve Tribes? Honestly I read the first ten percent last night and I can remember a thing I read. YIKES.

Well, I'm still glad I read the book and there's still important things here in spite of the vitriol spewed throughout. Furthermore, I absolutely hate not finishing a book and I was determined to finish this.

Is there one particular book you would recommend by Kincaid for a Kincaid-novice? Novel or short story it doesn't matter. Maybe one more accessible -or not.

Also, my monthly NewYorker email arrived and there's a podcast with Edwidge Danticat reading 2 short stories by Kincaid - Girl and Wingless and discussing her and the stories. Like See now Then, these stories are devoid of a plot generally speaking. Just wonder if this is common to her other books as well.

Danticat on Kincaid:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs...

Enjoy!

Such passionate comments from everyone - I love it!! I guess it is a bit depressing that mostly folks are not enjoying it, but I definitely appreciate everyone's contribution to the discussion!

Roy - I liked your review and appreciated that you were very specific in your criticisms. I challenge one of the things you said, though, and that is that Mrs. Sweet does not know that Mr. Sweet hates her (at least in the "Now"s in the beginning of the book). On page 11, for example, we read "Mr. Sweet hated his wife, Mrs. Sweet, and as she looked out on this natural formation of landscape... she did not know it." It's repeated in different variations in the first two chapters. I'm pretty sure this is important to the piece, that Mrs. Sweet represents a love so pure and total, that she cannot even imagine that those she loves do not love her in return. I imagine this is going to have consequences for her.

I will say despite Beverly's love-it/hate-it comment that I am kind of in the middle on this one (30% read). I actually really love the prose, and I love the imagery. And although I agree with Lori-linell and Rebecca that the content seems depressing in general so far, there have been a lot of lines that have been laugh-out-loud funny for me, and I am finding that refreshing. (Your question about the house/boat was funny, too, Rebecca!) The lack of plot is a tough sell for me, and a lot of the language is becoming a bit repetitive. But I definitely plan on finishing it to see if the experiment works for me.

Thanks for the link, Columbus.

Show of hands - anybody actually liking the book so far??

I agree, it's laugh out loud funny in certain areas; lyrical and extremely witty in others. So, whether you like it or not there's still much to be discussed here. A kind of strange indictment on marriage, maybe?

I've read about six reviews of this novel so far and strangely if See Now Then: A Novel were to receive a comprehensive grade by critics so far it would be an A-. What does that say about us or them - if anything?

Michael wrote: "Such passionate comments from everyone - I love it!! I guess it is a bit depressing that mostly folks are not enjoying it, but I definitely appreciate everyone's contribution to the discussion!

R..."

Yes, what I did like about what I read was the imagery prose - really enjoyed how the author described the landscape.

And yes I do enjoy the author's prose and can see why if this is the first book you are reading by the author you feel in love with it. As I feel in love with her prose and writing style from her first book.

Columbus wrote: "I agree, it's laugh out loud funny in certain areas; lyrical and extremely witty in others. So, whether you like it or not there's still much to be discussed here. A kind of strange indictment on m..."

This I am judging this book on technique, prose, execution of the storyline, orginiality of storyline I would give it a high mark also from a technical pov.

I do not think it says anything particular about me (or other readers) as each reader has their own individual reading palate. This was not the first time that I have not agreed with the majority and there will always be books that others highly recommend that many not appeal.

I purposely did not read the reviews on the book before I started reading (normal for books where I am familiar with the author) but after I started reading and was not enjoying I did read some of the reviews to hopefully give me some insight that might help my reading and decided to pick the book up. But a couple of pages later it was still just words.

But for me that was not enough to finish this book as a "pleasure read" as the storyline did not appeal to me and along with the stream-of-consciouseness format. I had picked this book up and put it down before the book was even nominated in the polls.

Columbus wrote: "Well, I'm still glad I read the book and there's still important things here in spite of the vitriol spewed throughout. Furthermore, I absolutely hate not finishing a book and I was determined to f..."

Thanks for sharing this. And I am looking forward to Edwidge Danticats's new fiction release this summer. :)

I do remember that the short story mentioned above is part of one of Kincaid's earlier fiction releases - At The Bottom of the River.

I just want to say again (as has been mentioned before) I appreciate this forum where we can honestly discuss books/author in a very positive atmosphere - whether we agree or disagree.

I really appreciate hearing what others have to say about our topics - as I learn from them and helps me be a better reader.

Columbus wrote: "Well, I'm still glad I read the book and there's still important things here in spite of the vitriol spewed throughout. Furthermore, I absolutely hate not finishing a book and I was determined to f..."

What a difficult question on which other Kincaid book to pickup.

There are several things I find common among her fiction writing:
- lyrical prose that evokes the time & place she writes about
- the fiction pieces feel much fuller (longer) than the number of pages of the acutal book.
- the author outlook on the human condition/nature is very negative - but yet I felt compelled to continue reading. But surprisingly most of the time I did not feel depressed after reading (I did feel depressed after reading 12 Tribes of Hattie) but often felt that I learned something more about human nature.

But here are my suggestions - and others can also chime in.

At the Bottom of the River - If you are a big fan of short stories (and some of these are very short) and of language - then this might be the one for you

Annie John - while not my fav - this might be the most popular one and this is the one that is usually on school reading lists - coming of age of a young girl

A Small Place - if you like history and reading about the effects of colonialism

Mr Potter - this is about a man's life as told by his daughter

The Autobiography of My Mother - interesting tale of the evolution of a woman coming to terms with her actions

Lucy - also considered a coming-of-age story but the character is older and also tells with her realities of being a nanny in America as to what she was expecting.

Thank you, Beverly, for your thoughts and for this very thoughtful overview of her other works. Very enlightening. They all sound interesting so I will have to ponder which one to read next!

And I understand what you are saying about resonating with her "first" book. There are definitely other authors whose voices I love but I don't love all their creations. That may be what is happening for me with See Now Then. Although it is such a wild ride, I think it will definitely stay with me for a while.

Thanks so much Beverly. This is extremely helpful. Did you read My Brother?

This group has great discussions! I am in again this month.

I have a copy of the book from my library and have read a couple of chapters so far.

I generally prefer other styles to stream-of-consciousness, but, I am finding this book interesting, and, it is not a very long book. I do plan on finishing it.
I think that Jamaica Kincaid is someone that I would enjoy having as a friend.

Columbus wrote: "Thanks so much Beverly. This is extremely helpful. Did you read My Brother?"

Yes, I did read My Brother. It was not one my favs. it is NF and if I remember correctly I thought it was 'ok' and it was cathartic for the author. So I would not recommend for a first read.

There was much mention of Shirley Jackson/Shirley Jackson's house. I knew Shirley Jackson was a writer and that there is an award named after her, but I did not know really anything about her life so I had to google to see how this fit in with the storyline.

How did you feel about the Shirley Jackson mentions - did it add to your understanding?

Wow, you all are great - you're doing my job for me! Love the questions...

Columbus, on the "critics" vs. "us" question, I've noticed something on www.rottentomatoes.com. Sometimes an artistic experimental film will come out and, for example, the critic averages are 90%, while the audience averages are 50%. It is possibly a difference between reviewing art for art's sake, and reviewing art as a form of entertainment. That may apply here (although there are professionals on Goodreads, I would consider most of us "audience" and the Goodreads' average rating for See Now Then: A Novel is 2.64, perhaps a C-)

Beverly, I did indeed check the Shirley Jackson Page on wikipedia when I saw her mentioned. The fact that she actually lived in North Bennington, VT, the same city where Jamaica Kincaid and her family lived, was what started me down the "what is true what is fiction?" quest in my reading. I can't imagine Jamaica Kincaid actually lived in the same house - does anyone know? The population of North Bennington in 2000 was only 1,428, so who knows...

I think two facts from the bio are worth noting: 1) In one of her series, Ms. Jackson "presented a fictionalized version of her marriage and the experience of bringing up four children". This is some possibly self-referential winking by Ms. Kincaid that she is doing the same thing. And 2) Ms. Jackson and her husband, Stanley Edgar Hyman, "were known for being colorful, generous hosts who surrounded themselves with literary talents, including Ralph Ellison." This is, of course, self-referential within our group, since we read Ellison's Invisible Man back in February. It's a treat to picture him there at the Shirley Jackson house now that I almost feel like I've been there.

Beverly wrote: "There was much mention of Shirley Jackson/Shirley Jackson's house. I knew Shirley Jackson was a writer and that there is an award named after her, but I did not know really anything about her life ..."

Hi! First time joining the discussion here. I am not that far into the book, but my thinking about the repeated Shirley Jackson thing is that perhaps it relates to the type of books that Jackson was famous for writing. Maybe she wanted to imply that living in that house was akin to living in a haunted house of sorts. The people living there were only ghosts of their former selves. I don't know.. I am not that far along yet. I was also thinking maybe it ties in with the fact that Jackson wrote fictionalized stories about her children and family. Maybe Kincaid was alluding that she was doing the same thing.

Welcome to the discussion, Londa. Thanks for joining in!

You might guess that I like your fictionalized stories tie-in - great minds think alike, LOL. But I also like your thought of the haunted house - maybe all past-present-future versions of themselves are living in the same space? Or here's a thought - does the book read differently if we read it as a horror novel?

Good morning, everyone!

I thought I would share some thoughts on the discussion this month. I have been thinking of some questions and plan to post a number of them for the group as the month progresses. To add some structure to the chaos, I thought I would focus on the four main characters (hint, Persephone is not one of them) as we discuss chapters 1 - 4, maybe until mid-April. And then I would explore some thematic and story/content questions as we review the second half, chapters 5 - 8, later in the month, leaving some time for conclusions and wrap-up. Of course, everyone else should chime in as usual as you think of questions, and I may just sit back and watch if you all keep the ball rolling all month with your own questions! Does this idea seem agreeable to folks? Anyone have any counterproposals or friendly amendments to my proposal?

Also, I liked Rebecca's idea last month of creative homework, so I have an idea for all of you. My challenge is to see if you can write a review of the book using one long run-on sentence in the style of the book. Any takers? Please feel free to practice during our discussion!

That said, I would like to start out with a warm-up question since it is just a few days into April and there may be some stragglers out there getting things together and/or locating a copy of the book.

Question: As some of the comments have already implied, much has been made in reviews and interviews with Ms. Kincaid about how much or how little See Now Then: A Novel is autobiographical. (see the links at the start of the thread and also this review: www.wypr.org/news/writing-well-wronge...). In general, why might an author include parallels to their own life experiences in their writing? As a reader, do you think it is important to know about the connections between the fictional accounts and the author’s life? How does knowing the biographical details of Jamaica Kincaid, specifically, add or subtract to your experience of this book?

Wonderful Michael. I am full support of the above. I appreciate the corral of the thread too. I am pleased for the creative homework challenge.

Michael - Great thinking questions :)

While I did not finish the book - here is my one sentence review of the book.

A circuitous tale of rambling lyrical prose festering with matrimonial horrors resurrecting Shirley Jackson’s ghost.

Thanks, Rebecca and Beverly!

Beverly, that's hilarious. I can see this month is going to be entertaining.

I always like learning about an author before my first read of an author. It helps understand the writing style and often helps to understand what the author wants us to get out of their work.

I have often heard that authors should write what they know so what they know best is their life, cultural and the situations/events and can see this may be used in their writing. So is it autobiographical or coincidence really does not matter to me.

Beverly wrote: "... here is my one sentence review of the book.

A circuitous tale of rambling lyrical prose festering with matrimonial horrors resurrecting Shirley Jackson's ghost."

:)

I have tended not to know much about the authors I read as I am usually more focused on the content of the books, whether or not that relates to the author's life. In fact, I found myself getting quite distracted by Ms. Kincaid's biography while trying to get into See Now Then because of the background reading I did in preparation for the group discussion.

That said, it does seem important to me to be aware of authors' backgrounds at times, particularly when there is an historical or revolutionary context to the writing that makes the book more than just a piece of literature. For example, Ms. Kincaid's experiences as a child in Antigua seems relevant because it sounds like many (all?) of her books give voice to those experiences that are often not heard in mainstream literature. On the other hand, knowing about her husband's affair feels more like gossip to me than relevant.

Beverly mentioned that authors write about what they know, and that seems useful to me, especially if that makes their creation more authentic in some way. But I can see them getting lost in the details if they make it too personal, and based on Beverly's comments that may have happened in My Brother, and it is possible that is happening here, for example I am still not sure which is being served more by Mr. Sweet being such an ass - the story or Ms. Kincaid's sense of justice...

Many of Ms Kincaid's short stories appear to be autobiographical as well and I wonder if this is just cathartic for her. She appears to be so very traumatized by her childhood and quite bitter still about her marriage. Because of these strong influences, I think it's almost imperative or necessary to discuss her personal life as it relates to her books. See Now Then is so closely related to her own personal story that one would almost mistake it for a memoir.

Columbus wrote: "Many of Ms Kincaid's short stories appear to be autobiographical as well and I wonder if this is just cathartic for her. She appears to be so very traumatized by her childhood and quite bitter stil..."

I agree with you. And maybe Kincaid says they are not autobiographical as the characters may not be entirely her or those she knows. But certainly her childhood, adult life marriage seem to heavily flavor her novels.

Michael, I like your use of RottenTomatoes as an example. Unlike a lot of others, I do refer to critics for almost all things cultural. Not solely depending on them for decision-making but certain critics I just love to read. Personal faves are NYTimes Book Review & Downbeat magazine for jazz. See Now Then would probably avg: critics 92 / regular folk 59 from RT.

I don't have a favorite for books or music yet, but movies has been Roger Ebert for decades so you might guess I am very sad today. In Memory

Ok, back to the topic at hand. I'd like to start finding out what people think of the characters in the book, and hopefully ask a few conversation-provoking questions.

I'm not sure there are exactly "spoilers", per se, in this book, but try to keep your thoughts to the first 4 chapters. We can revisit characters if necessary when we discuss the second half of the book. (Okay, I admit it is hard to remember what is in each chapter because of the stream of consciousness, I'll forgive you if you go astray...)

==== SPOILERS FOR CHAPTERS 1 - 4 BEYOND THIS POINT ====

Let's start with Mrs. Sweet (not necessarily Ms. Kincaid). Some general questions:

What do you like and dislike about her?

What do you think are her main motivations in this story?

Michael, what I like about Mrs. Sweet is she appears to be fearless - something that others say frequently about Kincaid. I like the fact that she speaks her mind, appears to be rather strong (albeit a little emotionally-spent) and generally loves her kids (obviously one more than the other it appears). I like the fact that she is passionate about her gardening. I would love to sit with her and talk over a nice glass of Port or Brandy, but we could not be friends. She would just drive me crazy!

She seems determined to turn one against her husband. She knows he despises her, hates her guts and she wants you to know as well.

Columbus, those are great qualities. In addition to those, here are some I picked:

Her strong emotions, for example, p. 60: "... and seeing in his glorious features outstanding attributes, she wept, the tears flowing uncontrollably and in such volume, that she had to immediately gather them up and place them outside, making a pond..." (you're right, it would be tough to be friends with someone having those implied dramatic moods)

Her ability to find amazement in simple things (the rainbow on p. 22, for example).

I like her "plunge forward, or buck up" philosophy and how she used it to learn to drive and get a mortgage. (p.92)

I like that there is more to her than may appear, she has secrets, she has her private thoughts in the room off of the kitchen. (Although you could argue that she is making those thoughts public, she shrouds them in tales and seems to have more that she is holding back).

Oh and Yes, the story certainly seems to be biased against Mr. Sweet, even the thoughts he supposedly keeps to himself are damning. If this is Mrs. Sweet's point of view, her love does not seem to encompass forgiveness, at least in this case. I definitely want to revisit that in the second half.

Anyone reading this on an e-reader device? I would really like to know how many times the Shirley Jackson house is mentioned in the book. I so agree with Londa with the haunted/ghostly/horror aspect of this book that Shirley Jackson is most known for. Not considered your standard-variety horror but a horror like Invisible Man, maybe. Are there parallels there? Nothing scared me more than reading SH's short story The Lottery growing up. Still chilling even today..

I was reading the Kindle version but switched to the hardback. I tried to use the X-ray feature on the book but it will not activate. Hmm, interesting. it will work on most books.

Mrs. Sweet her resolve and her love of her children. She see seems to like the mug says stay calm and carry on. Her awareness of her surroundings. Attempting to coordinate the musicians several times for Mr. Sweet.

Weekends are busy for me with my kids, but I've got a quick minute so here's an update:

Columbus - I haven't read The Haunting of Hill House, (although this is an oversight and I've put it on my to-read list!) so I can't comment on parallels. But I've just read a section in Chapter 7 that reads like a horror scene to me, so maybe I'll bring that up when we get to it.

For anyone with an ebook (it's out on Nook, too), I'd also like to know what the most common adjective is that is used with "Mr. Sweet". It is always "Dear Mrs. Sweet", and "Beautiful Persephone", and "Young Heracles", but I've seen a couple different ones for Mr. Sweet, though I don't know if that is significant.

Rebecca - I'm glad you mentioned the musicians, because that is the quote I use for my next question:

From Page 51: "Mrs. Sweet set about her task. She planted field upon field of cotton and sugarcane and indigo and dispatched many families to the salt mines. Mrs. Sweet brought her produce to market as cash crops, as manufactured goods, as raw human labor, and made an outlandish profit and with her profit she then made lyres and people who could play them and then she built a concert hall, a concert hall so large that to experience it required the fanaticism of a pilgrim."

This passage seems to be obvious hyperbole, much like the passages where she knits Mr. Sweet a new heart and new testicles (p. 45), or even where she makes the sun shine so Heracles clothes stay warm (p. 42). But she also has a roster of mundane accomplishments: knitting and mending everyone’s clothes, preparing three course French meals, reaping royalty checks to pay their bills, and of course loving each and every thing about her family whether they love her or not, among other examples.

What do you think Mrs. Sweet’s amazing accomplishments are symbolizing? Do you think the more mundane accomplishments are also suspect, or do they create a backdrop for her exaggerations? Should we worry that Mrs. Sweet/Ms. Kincaid is trying to make herself look good?

I was wondering that to Michael but after reading a different passage.
"his wonderful mohter who had taught herself knitting from a book, and had taught herself to cook meals eaten in the many different regions of France from a book, who had taught herself how to be.

She seems talented no doubt but I am wondering how much she really loves doing them? I think Kincaid has created a Patty Perfect of sorts and I do think she must be
hiding behind them for reasons I am not sure yet. Maybe her marriage and husband being a BIG one.

I am trying to understand the hatred of Hercules by Mr. Sweet. I did pick up that Mr. Sweet says that Hercules fingers are to big for playing the lyre.

I have to disagree with Mrs. Kincaids statement on ages and ages of fathers not loving their sons. IMO and based on what I have experienced in my own family.

I look at my own father who struggles with my brothers its very difficult for him to love them. He mostly provides financially for my one brother. My other brother he despises because he is not dependent on him financially and that is the only way he knows how to show or give love because his own father despised him.

Also I am curious about their friendships with their perspective "friends"

I defiantly seeing good points discussion although I am not totally enthralled with the story and characters.

I was wondering if anyone is listening to the audio version of this book. It is narrated by the author. Since this is a very lyrical book I was curious if this made a difference in the reading experience.

Rebecca wrote: "She seems talented no doubt but I am wondering how much she really loves doing them?"

I think that's a good question. I don't know if you've finished Chapter 4 yet, but I thought the closing passage was quite revealing:

p.93-94: "Plunge ahead, buck up, and Mrs. Sweet did just that, as she gathered up Mr. Sweet's dropped clothes and the soiled bath towels and the sheets and the children's clothes... All this made her tired, in body and mind equally - the work of it, the imagining of it: ... and she went on in her ways, looking after her husband, tending her children, looking up at the moon (quarter, half, or full) to see if it was in a shroud of clouds (rain tomorrow, in any case), and feeling happy, whatever that is, Then and Now!"

So it seems tied to the "buck up little trooper" line that her mother drilled into her in St. Johns, and may have saved her life, and may be why she clings to it. Can it make her happy? She seems to imply that she may not be capable of any happiness but this, and if it makes her mind weary perhaps that is the reason for the hyperbole, it is a way to romanticize it. Does anyone read that differently?

I am happy to talk about Mr. Sweet. I don't know if Ms. Kincaid was implying that no fathers love their sons, just that there are ballads and epics written about those dysfunctional relationships. Certainly fathers also love their sons, IMO it would be nicer if we had more ballads (and Shakespeare plays) reflecting this. Does it say something about the male condition? Probably, but I won't try to tackle that here. I think there may be more to it than that in Mr. Sweet's case. I do like the example you bring from your own experience, Rebecca, and how it shows that love and hate are very complicated, which I think is what we are seeing in this book.

Here are a few quotes about his hatred of Heracles:

p. 26 "... and young Heracles was playing golf now... and Mr. Sweet did loathe all that the boy enjoyed and would never, ever take him to the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Massachusetts, but he would have taken him to the home of Dmitri Shostakovich if it was in Springfield, Massachusetts,... and he wanted another boy, who could sit still in the movie theater watching a cartoon, and not need Adderall... a boy who was alive even in stillness..."

p. 50 "And Mr. Sweet, on hearing this big and loud laugh, wished his son a safe passage to the edge of the universe in a faulty space capsule..."

p. 56 "...such eyes, said Mr. Sweet to himself, such eyes they would never see and so lead to an understanding of Beethoven's concertos and Mozart and Bach...

That last is the passage I think you are referring to, Rebecca, where he thinks Heracle's fingers were meant to hold a javelin instead of a lyre.

Do we think Mr. Sweet hates his son because he is loud, restless, and loves sports? Is it simply because these are not the things Mr. Sweet loves? Or is it something deeper?

I am "reading" the audio version of this book, from the public library. The wait-list for the hardback was really long, and the library doesn't have an ebook version of this book. It worked out really well for me, while riding in the car to Florida and back.

I did read Mr. Potter by this author, and it took me two or three tries to read the whole thing...and it was a short book.

The audio version is read by Ms. Kincaid herself. She has a lovely accent and I am enjoying her voice. Listening to her read is like sitting with her in a room telling her rambling repetitive stories of Mr. & Mrs. Sweet. After hearing the "Shirley Jackson House" so many times, I began comparing it to the nursery rhyme, "The House that Jack Built."

This is the house that Jack built.

This is the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

This is the rat,
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

And so on until...
This is the farmer sowing his corn,
That kept the cock that crowed in the morn,
That waked the priest all shaven and shorn,
That married the man all tattered and torn,
That kissed the maiden all forlorn,
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn,
That tossed the dog,
That worried the cat,
That killed the rat,
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.