Victorians! discussion

This thread is to discuss the section of the novel chapters titled “Marie Melmotte Hears a Love Tale” through “John Crumb.” Please limit spoilers to this section of the reading only.

The story lines are beginning to really blossom in this section of the story. It is interesting that, in this section, Lady Carbury and Melmotte go a bit static as characters while the evolution of several of the other characters takes place.

I think Georgiana Longstaffe's story will be interesting, certainly Roger's, and Felix it seems is now forced to use his brain (for good or evil we know not yet). And I am beginning to see that Marie Melmotte and Dolly Longstaffe will have a voice.

This story is dealing with many of the same factors in society than my other two Trollopes were, but this story has so much more of a biting quality than those did. It is certainly captivating.

The transitions of thought of society in this book are so interesting. The view of the newly wealthy were changing for the upper class because they needed loans and money connections. The more conservative members of old family at odds with their family who were accepting the "new money." The newly wealthy beginning to find their own ways into society and not needing the connections of "old society" and the titled as much. What an interlaced story!

SarahC wrote: "The transitions of thought of society in this book are so interesting."

This reminded me of the Titanic movie and how people looked on "Unsinkable" Molly Brown. She was "new rich", and it seemed like most people looked down on her.

I do find it interesting in this second section how much people think the Melmottes are horrible people, but they sure don't mind their money! Perphas that is part of the commentary we are supposed to gather reading between the lines of the title of the book?

Yes, I think before the novel is over, we won't even have to read between the lines to see Trollope's views on the fickleness of society and the ways of the "new" vs. the "old."

Yes, "the way we live now" as maybe a catch-phrase even. And we actually hear it directly from none other than Matilda in chapter 30. She herself is feeling miffed, although forgiving, but still not quite right with "Mr. Melmotte's Promise." She can't help longing for a real friend, possibly Roger? But Roger..."was old-fashioned, and knew nothing of people as they are now. He lived in a world which, though slow, had been good in its way; but which, whether bad or good, had now passed away."

This story is so identifiable and it brings up a timeless question -- we move with the times, with the changes, we take up new ways. But how often do we ask if we actually NEED the changes we embrace?

It reminds me of the question I discuss with friends often -- now that we live in the big box store, Walmart society, is this what we really wanted? Did we need so much stuff and were we so under-supplied by smaller, regular stores in decades past? We were so swayed by the "practicality" of one-stop shopping and now we have no neighborhood stores? We were lured away by money and "savings." So maybe those who are circling around Melmotte are so lured by the money too, but don't realize what they are giving up.

And isn't it interesting that Melmotte is continuously referred to as a brute, vile (by Paul), and "the general enemy" (by everyone in his own household)?

Have you noticed how Trollope portrays some of the characters as using such bad grammar? The Melmottes especially, but even Felix and his crowd. Showing how much they lack any refined ways maybe?

Good observations Sarah -- I for one will pay more for American products, and it saddens me to see how many jobs we've lost and continue to lose so we can get cheap stuff. Too many people don't see the connection!

Below are three observations from Chapters 17-33.

1. Felix is living up to his role.
It seems Felix is fully embracing the idea of the new English gentleman, which inludes spending money he doesn't have, having a mistress on the side, and he believes deception is ok. I prefer Roger's example.

2. Mr. Melmotte isn't a fool.
Mr. Melmotte clearly understands Felix doesn't have any money and cannot offer his daughter anything in the marriage other than a title. He knows Felix isn't in this for love, and it doesn't seem Mr. Melmotte really loves his daugther either.

3. Marie may be a good fit for Felix
I was really surprised that Marie wants to elope with Felix and steal her father's money! It seems Felix is the one dreaming about how much it would be, estimating at least L50,000. Do you think she really has access to the money, or is she just trying to trap Felix into marriage?

I have not finished this section, but I must say that Felix is becoming more odious as the novel progresses. Does anyone see a resemblance to Dorian Gray? Felix seems totally narcissistic to me.

I will come back later and read all the comments....

I havent read Dorian Gray, Marialyce, but I love when we see parallels within characters and stories.

Kyle, I believe that Marie does have that money, (although complications can always arise I am sure.) Because almost immediately the plot turns so that Felix is offered the choice to drop Marie and take up Melmotte's helping hand. I think Melmotte realizes she is really sold on Felix, will run away, and she does have access to the hidden money. You are right, every bit of it reads like a business deal. Felix has no real emotion for Marie, nor does Melmotte -- she has been used as a tool to weave himself more into the circle and now he is beginning to control the circle and doesnt even really need Marie.

I do have to add that the railroad scheme seems like a Ponzi tactic to me. Does anyone else think of Madoff as they read through this, but on a lesser scale?

Yes, very much, Marialyce, and I think it shows that Madoff didn't invent the game either! I imagine this has gone on so much in history, I think Madoff just amazingly got away with it in modern times with supposed so many "checks and balances," right?

Yes, I was thinking along those lines also. Especially when they stated intention of the company wasn't really to build a railroad but to float the stock. Somebody is taking in a lot of money each time stock is bought.

Very intriguing that this way of thinking went on long before "modern" times. don't you think?

As I've already said it intrigues me the fact that, as we read this, the stock exchange all over the world is going catawampus, all up side down. It is as if it does not follow "real" economy any more; and I think this is what Trollope is trying to write here.

Of course he was not a fool. As SarahC wrote - it is exactly the passage I had underlined in my book!!! - Roger..."was old-fashioned, and knew nothing of people as they are now. He lived in a world which, though slow, had been good in its way; but which, whether bad or good, had now passed away."
They're not able any more to rule this changing world, but the new leading class is no better at all...

I liked john Crumb; all in white because of his work. He is what he does.

Yes, Laura, John seems to be the most human of them all. I am hoping his character continues in the next sections.

There was so much happening within these chapters as Trollope kept on enlightening us with all of the characters' faults and traits. As I said above, Felix is a cad. He is despicable even with his dealings with Ruby. (making a date and then knowingly not showing up!) I am certainly looking for him to get his comeuppance.

I do think too, that Marie does have access to her father's money. I will be interested in seeing how she does (or if she does) acquire it. I also hope that she finds out about Felix. In so many ways, I can see why he has turned out the way he has with Lady Carbury as his mother.

One of the things which I am finding interesting about this story is the way in which deals with the question of gender and the struggles of women for more independence and how women are left so much more vulnerable and at the mercy of men.

It seems that most of the women we encounter in this story do each in thier own way have thier own streak of rebellion within them and strive for independence but how thier efforts are oppressed both by the world they live in and the men in their lives, either fathers, husbands, potential husbands, suites, and so forth.

In the case of Marie while Mr. Melmotte acknowledges that his daughter does not need his permission to marry he does hold his money over her head as a way to keep her prisoner by refusing to give her his money if she should marry agasint his wishes. And while Felix is not whom she thinks he is, and she is better off not wedding him, her father truly is not interested in her own well being, but simply wants to use his daughter as a pawn for his own advancement.

And Hetta though she does stand up for herself against Roger and refuses his frequent proposals, admitting that she does not love him and thus cannot marry him, at the same time she does being to be made to feel as if she does have some obligation to accept him and she is tempted to go agasint her own feelings and agree to be his wife. Because of the way he does keep pressing her, it makes her begin to feel guilt over the fact that she does not love him.

I also found the chapters dealing with Mrs. Hurtle to be quite interesting, she strikes me as being a very interesting woman becasue of all the mystery that is cast around her and I was quite struck by her expression to Paul in which she told him that a man does have the freedom to forget his love by becoming lost within the affairs of the world but a woman does not have the liberty to do that.

Throughout the story it seems there are several instances of women who are struggling agasint the authority and dominance of the men whom rule thier lives.

Even Lady Carbury begins to acknowledge that she is wrong to keep indulging her son and yet becasue of her bond to him as his mother she admits her own weakness in her in ability to cut him loose as she knows she should.

Kyle wrote: "SarahC wrote: This reminded me of the Titanic movie and how people looked on "Unsinkable" Molly Brown. She was "new rich",..."

Here we have not only new rich but even a few Americans to throw into the mix. Paul's other girlfriend (sorry, I'm bad with names) reflects on more than one occasion that the English are obsessed with money and position, but that the ones who are the most socially acceptable are the most boring. That reminded me of the time I went to my aunt's country club for a family party. It was 2005, but Trollope could have been looking over my shoulder.

This is getting to be my favorite Trollope novel, and I've read most of them.

I'm really starting to think that Felix and Marie deserve each other. Melmotte clearly sees right through Felix and knows that he only wants to marry Marie for her father's money. I think he is against the marriage more to protect his money than he is to protect his daughter though.

It's an excellent book. My first Trollope but definitely not my last.

Anna wrote: "I'm really starting to think that Felix and Marie deserve each other. Melmotte clearly sees right through Felix and knows that he only wants to marry Marie for her father's money. I think he is a..."

I think that is unfair to Marie she is misguided in her love for Felix, but I do not think she is truly that bad. In some respects I do admire her for standing up to her father in not wanting to simply accept the match he had chosen for her, which he did purely for his own benefit. Though Felix is not a good choice for her, I do not think she deserves the life of misery he would likely bring just because she is a besotted young girl.

Yes, maybe you are right and I was a bit harsh on Marie. I guess we all made impetuous decisions in our youth.

Can we view Marie and Ruby in the same way though? Both have refused the man their father/grandfather has chosen for them. Are they right to have done that considering the period in which they are living? I don't have an answer to these questions and would be interested to hear what other people think?

Trollope's focus on the "now" in English soceity leads me to believe young women could choose their husbands, but this decision may have severe reprocussions. For example,

* Ruby's grandfather initially withheld the L500 he had promised.
* Melmotte threatened to withhold his monies - although we learn he really didn't have any.
* Georgiana's father threatened to completely cut her off from the family if she chose to marry Mr. Breghert.

I forget their names, but there was also the story of the other English lady eloping and marrying a Jewish man, which actually seemed to turn out well. I do think other English families looked down on her some, but she seemed to be faring well.

I don't know, Anna, about the "rightness" of their decision to go against their father's wishes as to who they marry. Of course, we always have to consider the time in which they lived and the very dire consequences should they be successful in their wishes.

I do not think these fathers were the type to relent or not follow through on their threats. Both of them would, I believe, have written off their daughter/granddaughter without blinking an eye. It was very courageous of these women to have been so unbending. It was interesting to read how much of what they withheld would be money since neither one of them seemed to have an ounce of love for their offspring.

So do I believe it was the times? Definitely....The man ruled the roost and what he said was binding or else...

Even today, in our "modern" times, we do hear of families who turn out a child who does not conform to their wishes matrimonially.

Anna wrote: "Yes, maybe you are right and I was a bit harsh on Marie. I guess we all made impetuous decisions in our youth.

Can we view Marie and Ruby in the same way though? Both have refused the man thei..."

I do think they have the "right" to stand up from themselves and rebel against an unjust system. Though it would not have been viewed as such in the period in which they were living.

Even Mr. Melmotte acknowledges that in truth he can do nothing to actually force her to marry whom he wishes. But can only make threats to try and scare away other suitors and cow her into submission to his will.

So women did have some right in the choosing or refusing of the men whom they married. And a woman could not in fact actually be forced into a marriage completely against her will.

Now unfortunately both Maria and Ruby's attempters for impendence, and standing up for their rights risk leading them into unpleasant situations because they have been lead astray by the same man who will do neither of them any good.

But I do not think they are wrong for refusing to meekly go into marriages which would bring them no love even if that is what the time period expected of them.

Kyle said: "I forget their names, but there was also the story of the other English lady eloping and marrying a Jewish man, which actually seemed to turn out well. I do think other English families looked down on her some, but she seemed to be faring well."

I think the only reason that woman fared well was because her husband really does have a lot of money. If he didn't, god help her.

I have enjoyed following a male author write about women's difficulties in finding suitable mates -- the differences and similarities with Jane Austen, but also with Thomas Hardy, who tended to deal with women mostly of quite dissimilar backgrounds. The closest similarity I have encountered is probably with Thackeray's Vanity Fair.

The first chapters with Lady Carbury describing her shenanigans with the various publishers was like straight out of a sexual harassment tutorial, long before they would have been considered such and in forms that are debated yet today as to the extent they are such.

I thought it was odd that "running away" with Marie Melmotte is discussed more than once as an option for Felix, especially since Lady Carbury is the first to suggest it! It would never occur to me that "running away" with someone could be a strategic maneuver with the goal of financial gain. Completely bizarre. I also think it's sad for Marie that no gentleman wants her because he loves her. The strange part that if an arrangement is successfully made for her to marry Lord Nidderdale, she may be considered fortunate. Would she find a husband if she were not the daughter of a wealthy man? It's sort of complicated. She's a fool for not seeing through Felix, yet I sort of feel bad for her, and at the same time think that in the end she may be ok, all because of what people assume her father to be.

I think, Kristen, that what she said is true, and I also believe that Marie is a very headstrong young lady and will do what she wants. They both seem to think that her father will forgive her and all will be well eventually.

Her success in a marriage proposal certainly had to do with money and I agree that is pretty sad. Then again, everything seemed to revolve around money and class.

I am having a hard time staying interested in this novel. I haven't quite been able to figure out why. Is it moving too slowly? Do I feel as if I "know" the plot? Would I rather be reading about 21st century characters? I think I like the writing; I don't think that is the problem. Maybe just the wrong fit for me right now, but I had similar problems with The Warden ; I have started it and set it aside, much as I am tempted to do with this one.

What is keeping the rest of you interested and reading?

It is a little slow, especially in the first 17 chapters. Not much happens. It's all character development, etc. Even in this section, I feel that we are still in the set up part of the plot. There's not a lot of action, it's mostly the characters' thoughts. I thought it started to get more interesting in the few chapters following ch. 33. Maybe the pull for me is that with most of the characters relying on Melmotte's assumed wealth and greatness, it seems inevitable that everything will come crashing down. Maybe it's the whole "watching a train wreck" thing?

I thought the most enjoyable thing about the book was that many of assumptions we are encouraged to make about various characters in the first half turn out to be wholly or partially false. I liked that Trollope develops complex characters from what at first seem to be stereotypes.

Thx for the input, Kristen. I will hang in there for awhile longer. I have skimmed through to Chapter 33 (enough to be willing to read the comments here) and am back several chapters now reading more closely. I'll see what happens in the section after 33 before making a go/no go decision.

Bea wrote: "I thought the most enjoyable thing about the book was that many of assumptions we are encouraged to make about various characters in the first half turn out to be wholly or partially false. I like..."

That's encouraging, too, Bea.

Bea wrote: "I thought the most enjoyable thing about the book was that many of assumptions we are encouraged to make about various characters in the first half turn out to be wholly or partially false. I like..."

Yes, the characters are becoming more rounded out.