The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

It is time for the next section. And I hope this week discussion will be as entertaining and fruitful as the previous one. I only want to remind you that this week we are reading SIX (6) chapters though page-wise it is roughly the same amount.

It is quite obvious that I am trying to read the section ahead, and this week it has been one of the most entertaining sections not only in the novel (we have not read that much to declare this boldly) but in the whole recent history of the Dickens Project.

Let’s start from the very beginning. The kind angel Gabriel is a real humanist and altruist – he is concerned both the young injured man, Mrs. Rudge, and the weak-minded Barnaby. We, the readers, are more and more titillated by the fact that Mrs. Rudge admits her connection with the ominous man, but we are left in the dark about the nature of their relationship. I also immensely enjoyed reading the passage about Barnaby’s dreams. This is again an element of Gothic Romanticism in realistic world of Charles Dickens. As far as I know, and I am far from being a connoisseur, Romantics were very fond of describing those borderline states of mind (‘liminal’ universe– dreams, nightmares, bouts of madness and insanity, incantations, drug intoxication, visions, etc.) So the quirky and preposterous dreams of Barnaby can be ascribed to the same type of human experience. It was a very un-Dickensian passage but immensely enjoyable.

And I also think that some of our speculations were answered, at least the ones about the raven. Barnaby is an owner of the most mysterious raven, black and ‘verbally prophetic’. Does it act and sound familiar? :-)

Well, what do you think about the scene describing the secret (oops!) Society of ‘Prentice Knights? It might be a hilarious passage, but I am afraid, and it is just a speculation, this society might have serious ramifications for the plot. Their jokes and meetings are not as naïve and immature as they seem to be. And look at our ‘beloved’ Simon; he is one of the most important members of this secret assembly. Indeed, still waters run deep.

And Miggs, enamored by and gaga over Sim, ever vigilant Miggs, what a character she is, what a treasure-trove. With that, and with an expression of face in which a great number of opposite ingredients, such as mischief, cunning, malice, triumph, and patient expectation, were all mixed up together in a kind of physiognomical punch, Miss Miggs composed herself to wait and listen, like some fair ogress who had set a trap and was watching for a nibble from a plump young traveller. Dickens keeps giving us a gem after a gem of verbal portraiture. This chapter, in my humble opinion, is one of the best examples of a humorous touch that Dickens mastered as a novelist.

Now the other two chapters again pose more questions that give definite answers. Well, at least we meet Mr. Chester, Sr., Mr. Haredale (long time no see), and a certain Hugh, who might or might not play a role in this mysterious story. And as far as I understand, this chapter is also important because it shows us the time span – it was nearly SIX month ago when Mr. Chester, Jr. had spent a night at the Maypole.
Ok, dear Dickens project folks and followers, now it is your turn. Share your ideas, links, speculate as much as you want, ask each other questions, and please post the examples of beautiful writing from the novel (well, this last request is totally up to you :-)).

Zulfiya wrote: ". And as far as I understand, this chapter is also important because it shows us the time span – it was nearly SIX month ago when Mr. Chester, Jr. had spent a night at the Maypole. ..."

I am starting now a little from the back, but was wondering about the timeframe, especially as you, Zulfiya, are pointing out the time. Do we really know that Edward Chester spent the night at the Maypole before he was attacked? I am just a little surprised about him leaving so late at night to go home if he had spent the night before in a bed there.
I must admit I am, generelly speaking, a little surprised about the frequency of travelling between London and the Maypole.
It must have a very special reputation or connection to certain people, e.g. Barnaby, that they are going to an inn in the countryside so often.

Hedi, let me re-read and check. I myself was surprised to read Mr. Willet's remark on Saturday. :-) Deductions, deductions, literary detectives:-)

Zulfiya, you have already said so much. :-)
I fully agree with you on the character of Gabriel and the gothic side of Barnaby.
The raven might evolve to its own character, and to me a black raven has a very gothic touch as well.


What did you think of the description of Mrs. Varden with her constant mood changes and usually the opposite way than the rest of her society? I felt a little reminded of Mrs. Nickleby, who - as we learned - was a reflection of Dickens's mother. So when I was reading this, I only had one question in mind - what is it that Dickens has with these middle-aged women? Maybe he was a little traumatized by his own mother and projected her into each of his middle-aged female characters...



As I have just made a typo, another thing came to my mind related to Gabriel Varden. Zulfiya, you described his gentleness and caring side. His name - and I know this is a little imaginary and maybe completely wrong -could represent "ward". I was thinking about that, as well, as the Swedish word for "care" or "nursing" is actually "vard". :-)

Miggs, in contrast to Mrs. Varden, is again a much more independent and progressive woman. She reminded me of Sally in OCS, maybe because of her little "crush" (I think this is actually too great a word) on Sim and her little maliciousness, but also her trying to stand by herself and not being dominated by a man...
In the middle of chapter 7 I almost believed there is a certain parallelism between her in the Varden's house and the raven in the Rudge's house.

"Miggs groaned in sympathy - a little short groan, checked in its birth and changed into a cough. It seemed to say, 'I can't help it. It's wrung from me by the dreadful brutality of that monster master.'

The raven seems to have such a passive, but understanding and judgemental role as well.

However, in total, I am not sure whether I like Miggs (e.g. for having such an independent mind hating any patriarchialism) or dislike her (for her obviously little malicious ways). I was also a little astonished that on the one hand she hates all men, but on the other hand she seems to want the attention of the vain Sim.

A few more comments from my side:

I do not know who has read The Hunchback of Notre Dame, but reading about the Society of 'Prentices, I was reminded of the "noblemen" of the thieves at first. Sim - in all his vanity - seems to have a major position in this secret society, which by itself has to me also a little bit of a gothic, conspiritual touch.
The Freemasons and other secret societies were very popular in the late 18th and 19th century, as far as I know, including their rituals to welcome new members.

I was surprised about the obvious hatred and aggressiveness this group showed and fear the same as you, Zulfiya, do. These apprentices might play an important role in the plot.
It also became very obvious that Sim hates Joe and is willing to take agressive measures against him.

As we are brought back in chapter ten to the place where our read originally began, we are also brought back to the different characters that surround the Maypole.
I am curious to learn more about this animosity between Mr. Haredale and Mr. Chester that seems to have been the topic of the villalge's gossip for years maybe even decades. I think the gossiping in chapter 11 is hilarious, esp. when they are trying to visualize a duel with pistols and swords in the great room.

So far I cannot directly see any real link to the Gordon Riots yet, but maybe this will come soon.

In the end, we have so far encountered more mysteries and questions than answers. We have been introduced to some people (incl. a raven) briefly, but not enough to understand their potential as important characters for the plot. I am still not sure whom I would call the protagonist of the novel, maybe Gabriel Varden.

So, I do like the tension and mysteries and cliffhangers so far, but I am really getting curious to learn more and to see how it all fits together.

Here are the running titles for this week's chapters from the Charles Dickens Edition 1867-8:

Ch. 6: The Widow's Secret. How it happened. The Locksmith lies.
Ch. 7: Domestic Bliss
Ch. 8: Sim Tappertit. The 'Prentice's Glory. Solemnities of the 'Prentices Knights.
Ch. 9: Miss Miggs. Miss Miggs's watch.
Ch. 10: A Guest at the Maypole. The Maypole's Messenger. Barnaby's late.
Ch. 11: Hugh. Mr Haredale arrives.

I must admit, so far these titles do not signify much more than what is actually described in the chapters. However, as the chapters do not have titles, maybe they will become more insightful at a later stage of the novel.

Thank you, Hedi. These running titles actually give a certain feeling of order.

Now I have been bursting with comments and still forgot one:
What do you all think about Barnaby and his hallucinations/ apparitions/ dreams? Sigmund Freud was some decades later, but he might have liked Barnaby as an object of his research.
Zulfiya, you had mentioned the gothic elements of his dreams. It seems very interesting that Barnaby's fantasy does not seem to be limited to dreams, but also mingles with reality, as shown in the scene with drying clothes.

Hedi wrote: What did you think of the description of Mrs. Varden with her constant mood changes and usually the opposite way than the rest of her society? I felt a little reminded of Mrs. Nickleby, who - as we learned - was a reflection of Dickens's mother. So when I was reading this, I only had one question in mind - what is it that Dickens has with these middle-aged women? Maybe he was a little traumatized by his own mother and projected her into each of his middle-aged female characters..."

Mrs. Varden reminds me of Mrs. Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. Both at least attempt to control their husbands and households through "nerves" and fits of hysterics.

I've always thought that indulging in that type of behavior was one of the only ways these women had to express themselves and/or at least exert a measure of control over their own lives.

Amanda, you are right about Mrs. Bennet, too. When discussing Mrs. Nickleby, we talked about their similarities. I was thinking about her in this context, as well.

Hedi wrote: "Now I have been bursting with comments and still forgot one:
What do you all think about Barnaby and his hallucinations/ apparitions/ dreams? Sigmund Freud was some decades later, but he might have..."

Hedi, as far as Barnaby's dreams are concerned, they are so bizarre that I am afraid I will never be able even to try to decode them, but I think Dickens actually uses his dreams to tell us how confused his world is. I also believe that Dickens is a humanist; as far as I can see, he, like Shakespeare ,uses the characters that are, according to the cannons of the time, not acceptable as leading or supporting characters. Barnaby is one of examples of Dickens embracing the humanity in its diversity. And as Lynnm has already mentioned elsewhere in the Dickens Project, that is the reason why we like him as a writer. Or at least why I like him :-)

Hedi wrote: "Zulfiya, you have already said so much. :-)
I fully agree with you on the character of Gabriel and the gothic side of Barnaby.
The raven might evolve to its own character, and to me a black raven h..."

Miggs is such a peach, isn't she? I am also in two minds - she definitely entertains me, but she is not what you call a feminine character - there is a certain masculine tenacity about her. But the episode about her vigil was absolutely hilarious and a delightful reading material!

This is a terrific book with so much going on, I had to go back and write down the names and relationships of the various characters. I had forgotten Chester was the name of the young man who was attacked, for instance.

Pickwick was a humorous tale with dark inserts, this seems to be a dark tale with humorous inserts. I liked the line "The prospect of finding anybody out in anything would have kept Miss Miggs awake under the influence of henbane"

In Pickwick we saw a gathering of coachmen a bit like the apprentices' gathering. But that was more kindhearted. Dickens seems to be making fun of them and also showing their dangerous side, as people have perceived. Yet in other books he clearly knew how hard some apprentices' lives were (such as Oliver Twist). These apprentices apparently aren't really ill-used, they just think they are.

I often think of odd connections and what suddenly came to me is a song by Jim Croce "Workin at the Car Wash Blues" - the hero who is a good-for-nothing just out of jail thinks he should have a job with a corner office and a pretty secretary instead of washing cars. That seems to be the attitude of Sim and his associates.

Zulfiya wrote: "Barnaby is one of examples of Dickens embracing the humanity in its diversity. And as Lynnm has already mentioned elsewhere in the Dickens Project, that is the reason why we like him as a writer. Or at least why I like him :-) ..."

I fully agree with you. Dickens's ability to reflect all the different facettes of society and mankind as well as his humanity are the reasons I like his works so much as well.
I am just very curious whether Barnaby's character with his dreams and hallucinations will gain some kind of significance for the plot.

I just can't slow down and wait. This story has captured me. I'm already on chapter 16.

Christopher wrote: "I just can't slow down and wait. This story has captured me. I'm already on chapter 16."

Good job, Christopher!

Robin wrote: "This is a terrific book with so much going on, I had to go back and write down the names and relationships of the various characters. I had forgotten Chester was the name of the young man who was a..."

I am with you, Robin. It is a very terrific book so far, nothing much Dickensian in it plot-wise, and lots of moves and characters that are out of his usual scope (Well, Miggs is a pleasant exception. But even then, such quirky characters usually feature in his later novels)Besides, she is such a curiosity and a 'cherry-on-the-cake' character that her presence actually enriches the fabric of the novel.

Zulfiya wrote: "Thank you, Hedi. These running titles actually give a certain feeling of order."

You are welcome. If you all like them, I will post them every week.

About Barnaby, I think Dickens would have agreed with his statement that he has a better life in imagining the clothes as people or seeing pictures in smoke (funny, others say he has no "imagination") than in just seeing the world as it is. Any writer or artist sees more than is just on the surface and conveys it to us, that is the magic they perform. But Dickens makes Barnaby kind of creepy, as compared for instance to Smike, who is slow but angelic.

Barnaby is an outsider and a type like Fagin or Quilp, and his description could be considered offensive in the same way Fagin's is today. It's interesting that Dickens chose to make such a character central to the story.

I loved Chapter 9. Dickens lets go of the serious historical fiction theme and just has fun with Miggs and Sim Tappertit. The first paragraph is beautifully written and just quintessentially Dickens.

Miggs is a great character. She reminds me of O'Brien in Downton Abbey -- a tart tongue, manipulative and always in everybody else's business.

For me, Tappertit has taken a really unexpected turn. In the first five chapters he was just a comic supporting character. Tappertit took a much darker turn in Chapter 8 with the 'Prentice Knights (another secret society in Victorian Literature).

His lust for power and taste for violence actually comes off as quiet menacing. Tappertit is going to be an interesting character to follow.

Barnaby: I am finding him a much more interesting character as the novel progresses. I think that you'll find in later chapters the reasons for which Dickens made him the prime character. It is interesting that juxtaposition of Willetts views of him against his own imaginative of personality.
The scene: when I started this book, I was expecting some boring historical recourse of riots and other goings-on. However what little we have seen so far has been quite comical. This is not a Tale of Two Cities.

Christopher wrote: "Barnaby: I am finding him a much more interesting character as the novel progresses. I think that you'll find in later chapters the reasons for which Dickens made him the prime character."

Well, I've been pondering over this for a while now - why would a novel be named after a figure as marginal as Barnaby? Then again, the reader senses that he is not as plain as he seems at first. He may be shallow-witted, but he is not shallow, if you know what I mean ...

Robin, I agree with you on Barnaby being an outsider like Fagin or Quilp, but compared to those two characters, Barnaby seems to be "good". Maybe his character will really develop and not stay as plain as some of the other "good" characters we have encountered so far in Dickens's works. Or I am wrong and he turns into an evil monster? ;-) but at the moment I cannot believe that.

Amanda wrote: "I loved Chapter 9. Dickens lets go of the serious historical fiction theme and just has fun with Miggs and Sim Tappertit. The first paragraph is beautifully written and just quintessentially Dicken..."

I agree, I found Sim Tappertit rather alarming and he reminded me of Quilp in his disposition to dislike and to wish to punish those who crossed him or his friends in the slightest manner. He is deceptively foolish and I worry that his "enemies", so far including Joe his rival and Gabriel his employer, will underestimate or be completely unaware of the threat he poses.

On a much lighter note, I am really enjoying Dickens tendency to make his attractive women short and plump (Dolly) and his unpleasant women tall and thin (Miggs, Sally from TOCS):)

Frances, an apt observation about women and their physique :-)

Jo, I think Barnaby is not as simple as he is, or at least I think he will be influential later in the novel. Just predictions, but knowing Dickens, one can expect a twist or a plot line revolving around Barnaby.

The choice of Barnaby for the name of the novel seems a bit strange now, but as Zulfiya says, I don't think that Barnaby is as simple as he is being portrayed right now. And even now, we see that he knows exactly what is going on - he's always listening.

To play devil's advocate to some of the comments here, Sim Tappertit is the villain, but I wouldn't put him up there with Fagin or Quilp - at least for now. He definitely isn't a good guy, but his cause - apprentices having some rights against their workers - is good. Maybe Robin is right that these particular apprentices aren't as ill-used as many apprentices, but at the same time, really what are Tappertit's sins to date? That he is upset that he loves a woman who doesn't love him back? That he's vain? That he makes his own key? That he meets with other apprentices to stand up for their rights? That he manipulates a very silly woman? A bit slimy, yes; but horrid, no. Again, at least to date. He does have a potential to be a villain, and I think that's where the tension comes in regarding the character.

Can't wait to see what will happen in the meeting with Mr. Chester and Mr. Haredale.

And Dicken has a lot of threads in this book - he usually does, but seems more than most. It will be interesting to see how he brings them together.

Christopher wrote: "I was expecting some boring historical recourse of riots and other goings-on. "

Not picking on you, Christopher, but had to comment. :-) I never think of history as boring. History is exciting, and in order to understand today, we have to understand yesterday.

But with that said, Dickens would never just recount an historical event without including his wonderful array of colorful characters.

As others have said, I'm so surrprised after reading the first 11 chapters that this book has been ignored. I'm not going into favorites of Dickens so far - I tend to really like all his books - but its overall tone isn't that much different from the other novels we've read.

Lynnm wrote: To play devil's advocate to some of the comments here, Sim Tappertit is the villain, but I wouldn't put him up there with Fagin or Quilp - at least for now. He definitely isn't a good guy, but his cause - apprentices having some rights against their workers - is good.."

I was surprised at how badly Tappertit comes off in this section because of Dickens' legendary sympathy with the poor and working classes. (one of the best things about his novels, in my opinion. All of those politicians who love Ayn Rand should really be reading Dickens. They might learn something).

I thought Dickens would be more positive about the 'Prentice Knights. As others pointed out I'm sure apprentices were treated badly by their employers.

I was surprised that Dickens lampooned the idea of workers fighting for their rights by making Sim a kind of demagogue with a group of (sometimes literally) blind followers.

Amanda wrote: "Lynnm wrote: To play devil's advocate to some of the comments here, Sim Tappertit is the villain, but I wouldn't put him up there with Fagin or Quilp - at least for now. He definitely isn't a good ..."

Oh, modern politics! But birds of liberal mind flock together in the Dickens project. On the other hand, Atlas Shrugged should be read just to say: 'I have read this literary monster' And you are right, the poor in his novels are mainly decent and compassionate people who sometimes share the last they have (in our previous read the character was so poor that he could only give the flame of the fire for Nell and her grandfather)Anyway, I think we have unanimously come to a conclusion that this is not his typical novel :-)

I think that Dickens is full of odd characters and this is one of the charms of his books. I therefore would not classify Barnaby as similar to Fagin and Quilp. I would add Barnaby to the list of quirky characters that we collect as we read Dickens. Hugh is another such character - and his backstory as described by John Willet in chapter 11 is fascinating. I am sure that this will have significance in the future. (my Oxford World Classics edition has a wonderful line drawing of Hugh asleep)

I propose that Barnaby is a foreteller of things to come. I think that his dreams and his supposed description of the washing on the line are harbingers of the unrest that we anticipate.
'Look down there, do you mark how they whisper in each other's ears; then dance and leap, to make believe they are in sport?. Do you see how they stop for a moment, when they think there is no one looking, and mutter among themselves again; and then they roll and gambol, delighted with the mischief they've been plotting? Look at 'em now. See how they whirl and plunge. And now they stop again, and whisper cautiously together - little thinking, mind, how often I have lain upon the grass and watched them. I say- what is it they plot and hatch? Do you know?'
Mr Haredale interprets this to be about the washing, but imagine it instead to be a description of Sam's meetings. Does Barnaby follow Sam? Maybe everyone ignores the fool and that is why he can observe more of what is happening, unfettered by any prejudice.

I went down with food poisoning whilst on holiday and am still not up to the mark, hence my lack of participation in this wonderful, insightful discussion. The Raven may have more significance than we realise as they have lots of important meanings in literature:-

http://suite101.com/article/the-meani...

Barnaby's dreams would certainly have intrigued Freud and Jung Christopher. I was reminded of this portrait of Dickens by his illustrator Buss, entitled 'Dickens' Dream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dic...

As has been said, dreams are part of the gothic element of the novel and Victorians were fascinated by them. It was supposed to be auspicious to dream of white linen and washing white linen represents inner cleansing, the "washing away" of old ideas, attitudes etc.

Thank you, MadgeUK. That's a very good link. Ravens have been very influential in literature, and I think it all started with Dickens:-)
I hope you will fully recuperate in the nearest future. Food poisoning is exhausting.

MadgeUK wrote: "I went down with food poisoning whilst on holiday and am still not up to the mark, hence my lack of participation in this wonderful, insightful discussion. The Raven may have more significance tha..."

Madge, thanks for the links and I hope you are feeling better very soon again.