Kendra’s Comments (group member since Aug 26, 2016)

Kendra’s comments from the Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages group.

I'm resigning myself to the fact that I probably won't be able to catch up date-wise in The Story of Civilization with where we are in TWEM. Next month, we will begin reading Augustine, who dates back to around 400 AD. The third book in TSOC series, covers history up to 325 AD, and I'm not even finished with the second book. When I consider it's taken me about a year to read each book in this series so far, catching up seems impossible.

But, ultimately, I'm okay with that. I'm choosing to prioritize this group/reading list over others. I'd read it all eventually...

"The concise biographies of famous Greek and Roman men (Parallel Lives)" --or simply, Lives -- "written by the Greek philosopher and priest Plutarch under the early Roman Empire are true classics in the literature of Western civilization. Following the Renaissance’s rediscovery of ancient Greek literature, his Parallel Lives inspired leading authors and thinkers. Montaigne, Shakespeare, Dryden, Rousseau, and Emerson––all were avid readers of Plutarch. The public loved Plutarch, too: from the founding of this country until well into the nineteenth century, a translation of Plutarch’s Parallel Lives was the second most likely book to be found in American homes, following only the Bible. Plutarch’s biographies were regarded as essential reading for young people because they revealed in dramatic fashion just how much character mattered in moral choices.

Plutarch writes biographies focused on individual character, not the details of history. Therefore, he explores his subjects’ characters and their responses as free and responsible individuals to moral challenges, whether posed by small things or momentous events. Plutarch concentrates on crucial moments in their lives at which they face difficult decisions. When right and wrong are not obvious in these situations, Plutarch is not reluctant to judge his subjects, but in the end he expects his readers to shoulder the task of evaluating the wisdom of the choices his subjects make. Plutarch’s goal in his biographies is to present readers with examples of conduct to imitate and to avoid in their own lives. Plutarch’s Parallel Lives therefore has important insights into liberty and responsibility." Online Library of Liberty.

In Lives, we've finally crossed over into A,D.! Seeing where we started, that alone is an accomplishment. This book is a hefty tome and since we've only allocated one month to it, I don't expect most of us to read every word. However, I'm not going to chose selections for us to read, either - I'll leave that up to personal choice.

Personally, I'm going to try and get through as much as possible in volume 1, and then see if I'm interested enough to attack volume 2. Remember, we can always return and keep the discussion going at a later date!

Bill, that does look super interesting! I'll have to check it out. Thank you for sharing.

Yes! It seems like there's a little variety of titles used but it is the same content. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the book, Cleo!

Cleo,
That is a really interesting point! A lot of greed and desire does come from comparison and wanting what (or more than what) others have. It would be interesting to step back and ask ourselves, "What do I need and want to live a happy life?" without the influence of comparison/ cultural expectations (as much as possible).

I just wanted to share - in full - the ode that I connected to most.

Book II Ode X
Better will you live, O Licinius,
not always urging yourself out upon the high seas,
nor ever hugging the insidious shore
in fear of storms.

He who esteems the golden mean
safely avoids the squalor of a wretched house
and in sobriety, equally shuns
the enviable palace.

The tall pine most often is shaken
by the winds, and lofty towers tumble
into greater ruin, and lightning strikes
the highest mountain peaks.

Hopeful in adversity, fearful
in prosperity, the well-armed souls
confronts its fate. Though Jove inflicts upon us
unwelcome winters

He also takes them away. Ill fortune now
will not be always so. Sometimes Apollo
awakens the mute Muse with his harp,
not always by

drawing his bow. In difficult times
bold and valiant show yourself! Yet wisely
reef your sails when they are swollen by
too fair a wind.


This one really stuck out to me because in America today, we have such a culture of gain. We try to make as much money as possible, gain the most status, get the nicest things. And I've wrestled with my own sense of ambition and what my true intentions and desires are. I want to aim for that "golden mean" - not too much but not too little.

I think, actually, the idea of the "American dream" is that golden mean. Whether it's attainable still is a discussion for another day, but I think it's still a good desire.

"De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things) is a first-century BC didactic poem by the Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius (c. 99 BC – c. 55 BC) with the goal of explaining Epicurean philosophy to a Roman audience. The poem, written in some 7,400 dactylic hexameters, is divided into six untitled books, and explores Epicurean physics through poetic language and metaphors. Namely, Lucretius explores the principles of atomism; the nature of the mind and soul; explanations of sensation and thought; the development of the world and its phenomena; and explains a variety of celestial and terrestrial phenomena. The universe described in the poem operates according to these physical principles, guided by fortuna ("chance"), and not the divine intervention of the traditional Roman deities." Source: Wikipedia

This will be our last science book before we pass through almost 1600 more years.

Up next on our list is Horace's Odes! Here is where we make the leap from Greek to Roman literature, a major milestone on this reading journey, I would say!

"Life is brief and death is coming, so enjoy each moment. Horace's odes are organized around this philosophy; they tend to begin with a scene from nature or from society (a great banquet, a drinking party, a forest at dawn) and to progress from this concrete image to a brief argument that explains why (and how) the reader should enjoy what each day brings, without dreading the future. The odes aren't united by any one subject; Horace addresses, in turn, various women, virgin maidens, his friend Septimus, and gods ranging from Calliope to Bacchus. He writes of the weather, nature, ('All the farm beasts on the green ground/ Gambol, and with time to spare/ The world enjoys the open air'), farm life, the meaning of Roman citizenship, festivals, feasts, and love. But his philosophy of carpe diem ('pluck the day', seizing whatever it brings without apprehensions) shapes every poem. The pragmatic advice is given in full knowledge that death is inevitable, but Horace doesn't see this as a cause for mourning. Rather, the unstoppable approach of death becomes a moral center for his work: Accept your morality and always act in the knowledge that time is short." - Susan Wise Bauer The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had

If anyone is not up for reading the entirety of the Odes, Bauer lists a sample of the most noteworthy:

Book I: Odes 1 - 9, 17, 30
Book II: Odes 19-20
Book III: Odes 1-6, 13
Book IV: Odes 1, 7

Happy Reading!

It is a new month and that means it's time for a new book! This month we move onto our second science book: Physics by Aristotle.

"Aristotle had a lifelong interest in the study of nature. He investigated a variety of different topics, ranging from general issues like motion, causation, place and time, to systematic explorations and explanations of natural phenomena across different kinds of natural entities. These different inquiries are integrated into the framework of a single overarching enterprise describing the domain of natural entities. Aristotle provides the general theoretical framework for this enterprise in his Physics, a treatise which divides into two main parts, the first an inquiry into nature (books 1–4) and the second a treatment of motion (books 5–8). In this work, Aristotle sets out the conceptual apparatus for his analysis, provides definitions of his fundamental concepts, and argues for specific theses about motion, causation, place and time, and establishes in bk. 8 the existence of the unmoved mover of the universe, a supra-physical entity, without which the physical domain could not remain in existence." From The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Let's get reading and pondering the world we live in!

After finishing this book, here are a few of my thoughts.

The big idea that Aristotle keeps returning to is Art, and specifically Poetry, being imitation. Poetry-as-imitation is in our nature - it's instinctive. Children learn how to do things from a very young age through imitation and so, are natural-born poets.

At one point Aristotle says, "The poet being an imitator, like a painter or any other artist, must of necessity imitate one of three objects, -- things as they were or are, things as they are said or thought to be, or things as they ought to be." I might also add a fourth - things as they ought /not/ to be (as many more recent apocalyptic fiction might demonstrate).

A differentiation that Aristotle provides is the poetry expressed the universal, history the specific. Additionally, in comparing Tragedy vs. Comedy, he calls tragedy the higher form of are -- it seems that comedy has always been looked down upon.

I found these to be some interesting nuggets to chew on in my brain. I'd be interested in hearing what stood out to the rest of you in this book.

I sure am glad to have such a small little book this month! I've got so much going on that these 50 or so pages are about all I can handle.

I'm only a little ways in but it is interesting to read one of the first attempts to analyze and categorize poems and plays. Aristotle makes an interesting point that much of poetry sprung up naturally. It's not like one man sat down and and said, "we're all going to write in this meter and with this structure". It all developed more unintentionally than that.

I also love the context and understand this whole reading project creates. When Aristotle mentions Aeschylus, Homer, and Aristophanes, I know exactly what he is referring to because I read all of them previously.

Another aspect I found interesting was how even back then, trajedy was viewed as more respectable and mature than comedy. People have been looking down on comedy since its invention, it seems.

Kenia, you have done such an amazing job building this space to read and discuss these great books. Thank you for bringing this community together! I'm looking forward to your continued insights whenever you join in and good luck on your book!

I'm a little over halfway through and, honestly, this is not what I was expecting. It's crazy to think that I have heard so much about The Republic but, in reality, I knew so very little.

Socrates ideal State is very interesting, although I'm doubtful. I resonate with his understanding that this State is not likely to exist in its pure form because humans are not entirely good.

I'm currently on a cruise through Europe and it's interesting to compare this "ideal" with the realities of government in Russia, Finland, and (modern day) Greece.

Additionally, Socrates' ideal State includes everyone doing just one thing and I think I would personally hate that. I'm very much the kind of person who wants to try a million different things, and would if I had the time. So, as much as I admire dedication to one skills, I don't think I would thrive in that situation.

What does everyone else think? Do you like Socrates form of government? Do you think it's possible? Are there parts you disagree with?

I'm excited to get started on this! What's even more exciting is that I will be bringing this along with me on a trip to Europe I'm taking later this month that ends with a couple days in Athens. Reading Plato is Athens is going to be an interesting experience.

I think out of all the plays we've read so far, this is my least favorite. I can't say I laughed much - although when I began to describe the plot to my roommate who asked what it was about, explaining it was funnier than reading it. The best part, in my opinion, was when one of the characters came in trying to sell laws to the birds.

My copy is of the complete plays of Aristophanes but I honestly don't think I'll be reading many more of them.

I know it's a challenge, Kenia, but keep going! I'm sure you've reached it by now but I found that the book moved a lot quicker for me once Herodotus really started telling the story of the war as a narrative. It became cohesive and intriguing. I'm really glad I ended up buying The Landmark Herodotus for the sake of the maps and notes on the same page - I found myself tracing the movements on the maps with a pencil as I read about them. But I still have a little bit left to go so I will likely be doing the same thing as you with Thucydides - progressing through it while still continuing down the list.

I just thought I'd quote this bit about this rad warrior queen.

"I shall mention Artemisia. I find it absolutely amazing that she, a woman, should join the expedition against Hellas. After her husband died, she held the tyranny, and then, though her son was a young man of military age and she was not forced to do so at all, she went to war, roused by her own determination and courage... Of the entire navy, the ships she furnished were the most highly esteemed after those of the Sidonians, and of all the counsel offered to the king by the allies, hers was the best." 7.99

Also, I absolutely loved the way Herodotus reported about the Spartans and the story of Demaratos telling Xerxes that the Spartans will fight, even if they are outnumbered 1,000 to 1. Xerxes laughs it off and thinks it unbelievable that they will fight, especially without a tyrant to strike fear into them. But Demaratos says there is one thing stronger than the fear of a ruler - the power of law.

It has me wondering, is law and convention/tradition/family expectations stronger than authority? Isn't a certain amount of authority required to ensure people follow laws? I'm reading The Federalist Papers and discussing the formation of the Constitution and someone made the point that none of these writings/laws held any power until the people consented to them and agreed to live under their authority. The reason democracy has worked is that there is a certain amount of consent given by the people (and those who refuse to consent, aka break the law, are reprimanded by the others who do). And with that consent, there is a level of power and responsibility over the country by each individual. Those who have a level of power over their government feel compelled to protect it, whereas, those who have to power feel no responsibility to fight against invaders unless they believe they will suffer in response. It's actually quite logical - internal motivation (loyalty, responsibility, pride) is much stronger than external motivation (fear, demands, force).

Here's an interesting tidbit I noticed: Herodotus seems to spend a lot of time reporting history from the standpoint of the Persians. Being a Greek himself, I wouldn't have expected him to do that. It often seems like even in events involving Greece, they seem to only linger in the background, whereas the Persians are front and center.

Kenia wrote: "My plan is the same! I have a few pages left to finish Book 4 in Herodotus. Starting next week I plan to power through it to finish (I have a short philosophy book I need to prioritize this weekend for a book discussion on the 22nd). Then I'll start Thucydides in April.
I'm right there with you Kendra! :-D ."

Good luck! You got this!

I plan to join in April. I'm wrapping up Herodotus this month, but I'll jump into Thucydides right after that. I've learned with these large history tomes that you just kind of have to power through!