Cleo’s Comments (group member since Apr 12, 2016)

Cleo’s comments from the Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages group.

How are you doing with this, Kendra, or anyone else who is reading it? Are you finding it enjoyable? Tedious?

I tried to read a tale in Middle English, made it through a number of pages and changed to a current translation. Now I've read it once through I might try to tackle it again in Middle English if I ever have the time, that is. It was certainly doable but just takes work.

I read this awhile ago but I still have "notes" so if anyone is reading and wants to discuss it, I'm game! :-)

Way to go, David! Ancient Greece is probably my favourite time period although I've slowed down with my reading of it. I loved Herodotus, Thucydides and Ovid (although he was technically a Roman we won't hold it against him, lol!) I'm trying to get through The Republic but stalled on it and I've gone on to other books at the moment.

I hope you do live that long! Happy reading and welcome!

Kendra wrote: "Cleo, those are some interesting observations! I definitely think that not having explored the historical context, I am missing much of the subtle commentary. I do think a second read would be illu..."

I was just listening to a Great Course on The Divine Comedy and they are talking about the connections between Purgatory and the Inferno. Unless you read soooo carefully you really miss what Dante is doing. I've read The Inferno three times and I'm still missing things.

Gini wrote: "Still working thru the Bauer book, but have arrived at poetry, at last. I've tried The Inferno several times already, but never made to the last ring. So I'm very interested in what you all have to..."

Oh my goodness, I can't wait to get to poetry. I'm kind of stalled in the history section. Have fun!

Thanks, Sandy! I'm on overload at the moment but I'll mark it for the future!

I finished the Inferno a number of weeks ago and have started on Purgatorio.

The scope of Dante's poem is so vast that I think it takes a number of readings to get your bearings. This was the second time for me; the first time I just tried to learn about the historical context. The poem itself is multi-layered and Dante is not only speaking generally but specifically. Sins encountered in Hell, Dante sees in himself (or Virgil alludes to them) and while he is enlightened, I guess I see it as sort of a training ground for him. You can see his development throughout his journey. There is also a huge political context. It's interesting to note as you read through, how Dante meets both Guelphs and Ghibellines in Hell ..... while he is intellectually aware of the political climate, he now more focuses not on party authority but the condition of people's hearts. He also examines how destructive factional politics can be to a community. There's more and probably much that I missed but I certainly noticed the above with my second read.

I found that some of the people wanted to be remembered but most wanted to be forgotten. However, family and your family name was important in those times so I can see the connection.

What struck me most was a continual thread ....... often the soul in Hell was there not necessarily for what he did, but his refusal to take responsibility for his actions. They would not admit their guilt and ask for forgiveness and are often blaming someone else. It was something that really stood out for me.

Well, I must rush but I hope I've helped illuminate it a little more. We have to remember that it's a poem and while it is a story, you almost have to read it differently. Also, apparently Dante was a master with language and you completely miss his wonderful craftsmanship if you can't speak Italian. Bummer, isn't it? :-)

I just finished reading it with a friend so I'll be able to jump into the conversation. If you can read Italian, Elizabeth, you are sooo lucky! Dante's use of the language is part of the enjoyment of the poem, I hear.

I would suggest Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

The Aeneid is a good one to read after The Iliad and The Odyssey. Ovid's Metamorphoses also has some of the hero's from those books.

And if you wanted more Greek, you could look at the playwrights. Aeschylus' The Oresteia: Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides or Sophocles The Theban Plays. The former ties into The Iliad.

I'd love to hear what you choose!

You've very welcome, Howard! I'm glad all my lists haven't made your head spin. ;-) I absolutely LOVE Beowulf .... I think I've read it about 4 times and hosted a read-along of it one year on my blog. It's one of my favourites!

Kendra, just so you know, I put up the next February book and I'm going to put it in a new folder called 2019 Group Reads. The title was too long for a new folder and it would be good to keep all the 2019 reads together. Hope that works for you!

That's how it's supposed to work, Howard. Right now there is a City of God discussion going. Welcome to the group and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on some of these reads!

Thanks Sandy! I would love to take it but everything is inadvertently ramping up for me and I don't think I could manage it. Lovely thought though. Perhaps one day .....

Sorry for the late answers. I'm working on a deadline for a client so my time is more limited than I'd like! :-)

Elizabeth wrote: "Looked up Asherah a bit more. Apparently she was the wife of El and in some areas Yahweh, and then also relatedly the wife of Ba'al. And she was celebrated as some kind of pillar or tree of life next to an altar ..."

I think these theories are reasonably recent based on some statues found on an archeological dig. She's not linked to Yahweh from any historical Christian documents that i know of.

Elizabeth wrote: "That this gets translated to morals is where I'm scratching my head. ..."

The first word that comes to mind is "fruit". Lol! So does your fruit tree bear good fruit or withered fruit or no fruit at all. Simplified, sex in a pure context can breed giving and trust and loyalty and lasting pleasure and joy and stability and commitment, etc. etc. (good fruit) which adds to a person's life and happiness. Sex in an impure context can breed instability, momentary pleasure, mistrust, self-loathing, insecurity, unhappiness, etc. etc. (bad fruit) From a purely logical perspective, I think perhaps man was trying to get as close to the former as possible but being imperfect did not necessarily put a perfect structure in place. Very simplistic, but there you go! ;-)

Elizabeth wrote: " Controlling women's sex lives is also about retaining control of your children and property, so you can see it as a moral extension of a property concern. Rome certainly was very patriarchal. ..."

I know more about Greek culture than Roman but there were certain similarities. The Greek were all about protecting their citizens and community as a whole. So contrary to what we can think coming from a modern mindset, the intent wasn't to "control" but "protect". If their actions exhibit a control it's most often can be secondary.

Elizabeth wrote: "But actually I don't have evidence for this. I just don't know! And I find myself scratching my head over it...."

Not sure if this helps:


2 Kings 23:
"Then the king sent, and all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem were gathered to him. And the king went up to the house of the Lord, and with him all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the priests and the prophets, all the people, both small and great. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant that had been found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood by the pillar and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all his heart and all his soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people joined in the covenant. And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second order and the keepers of the threshold to bring out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels made for Baal, for Asherah, and for all the host of heaven. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron and carried their ashes to Bethel. And he deposed the priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to make offerings in the high places at the cities of Judah and around Jerusalem; those also who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and the moon and the constellations and all the host of the heavens. ..."

Elizabeth wrote: "how they also encourage their followers to immorality, I find myself considering sex and sexuality. I mean Augustine *really* has a problem with it. Once you stop thinking of sex as inherently wrong, a lot of his reasoning falls away...."

I don't believe Augustine saw sex as inherently wrong. I'm going out on a limb to say what I think he would have believed BUT I think he would mean sex is wrong under certain circumstances and outside of God's ordained view of it. Sex was/is meant to be pure but it is man who has twisted and bent its meaning. Augustine experienced both "living the good life" and later living a life based on faith so he would have valuable insights into both.

Elizabeth wrote: "We are so far away in culture, but where does this all come from? I'm just kind of baffled. ..."

Augustine was steeped in Plato and Plato often condemned drama unless it completely mirrored the society which you were trying to create. Plato didn't even like Homer. So that's probably part of Augustine's outlook. I would also say, on a holy day of purification, why would you want to include obscenity, filth and impurity? The Romans had some pretty over-the-top celebrations so his comments don't surprise me.