Comments on Books White People Need to Read - page 2

Ghandi, MLK, Mother Teresa, you would not find them or any other great peace leader listing off "books white people’ need to read".

It is not fair to categorize an individual person's thinking in advance based on their race. Doing so is racism.

Nobody should like to see racism toward ~any~ group.

You talk an awful lot for someone who isn't saying anything... Seriously your repetitive "arguments" that completely ignore everything anyone else says are really tiresome. I'm done with you. Honestly every time you comment here it ruins my day a little.

Please be kind to people around you as they are all individuals. Please do not use personal attacks, because that hurts the sender (on the inside) more than it hurts the ones under attack. I am mixed race, so not defending myself, just trying to do some peaceful part against racism. Thank you for you consideration.

There is a difference between racial discrimination (what Athens is talking about) and racial oppression (what Lianne is talking about). They are both generally considered forms of racism.

From dictionary.com:
discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit

oppress: to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power

Having privilege (it simply means that one group has certain advantages above others) generally excludes oppression, but not discrimination. Anyone of any race in any society can be the victim of racial discrimination.

I think we can all agree that stating that one race is the source of racism and is the only one that needs to be aware of race issues is a form of racial discrimination, but it is not racial oppression. I am sure that was not the intent of this list, but out of respect for those who are offended, and to avoid further misunderstandings, I think it should be changed.

Hi Chelsea. I think you might be on to the disconnect here. Will take a couple evenings to think about this point you make. At first read, it sounds wise; still want to invest some thought in it. :) Thank you!

I strongly object to the name of this list being changed, as it would be a gross denial of the privilege white people have when it comes to racism. There are very real reasons why white people are the ones who need to read these books, and denying those reasons is to deny our privilege.

Acknowledging white privilege, which is all this list is doing, is neither racism nor racial discrimination.

Lianne, with all respect to you as an individual, you may feel that you are a privileged white person and maybe even have some guilt over that. Please do not put the white part of my family into that bucket? They were certainly NOT privileged as you seem to be. The idea that some of my relatives who suffered under great poverty need to read your idea of books because they are white is a racist notion and it is everybody's duty to not accept racism. Thank you kindly.

... in short, it is an error of fact to say "our privilege" when not all of you were privileged.

It is better to treat people as individuals and to think of them as individuals, as did the peace leaders named above, Ghandi, MLK, Mother Teresa.

None of them would say "whites need to read this."

Athens, first of all, you know nothing about my situation other than that I am white. So kindly stop making assumptions about me. The fact is, I and every other white person have white privilege. Being a woman, being LGBT*, being poor, having a disability, being fat, none of these things negate white privilege. They mean you're oppressed in different ways, but one oppression does not cancel out one privilege. Please look up intersectionality and do some research.

Oh, and acknowledging privilege is not the same as feeling guilty. I don't feel guilty, because I can't help the race I was born any more than anyone else. But I still acknowledge that there are many situations in which I have an advantage over people of other races, because of being the race favoured by a racist society. That is fact, and has nothing to do with my feelings.

Also, please leave me alone. You might feel that I'm attacking you, but I'm feeling attacked by you, and as I've said, I'm finding this discussion to be exhausting, repetitive, and sad.

I hope we can all work to overcome racism in any form. It may take generations, but the work will bear fruit. Peace and respect to all.

The concept of white privilege is the idea that white people have certain privileges over other ethnic groups, white people having the most privileges because they are the majority (in the western world). One example would be that a white person can walk into an airport without people wondering if they are a terrorist. Or, usually white people are not refused a job based on their race. Assumptions are not usually made about white peoples' educational and economic status or gang affiliation. There are of course exceptions to all of these examples. It is also true that every cultural group has privileges that others do not. Men (in the United States) have the privilege of being paid more on average than a woman doing the same job. Men have the privilege of not getting catcalls or whistles when they walk down the street. In the United States there some scholarship programs that are open only to minority groups. It can even be biological, women have the privilege of giving birth, men do not. White privilege does not mean that every white person has every privilege, or that only white people have privilege. It also does not mean that people with privilege are willfully engaging in oppression. In an ideal world everyone would be equal, yes, but sadly that is not the world we live in.

There are many facets of racism that most white people in the western world do not understand because they have never experienced it. It does not make them bad or racist. Learning about this can help them to become more compassionate and understanding. However, I have personally seen people who are not white engage in racism against other ethnic groups. People of Middle Eastern, Latino, Native American (etc) descent are often the victim of cruel racism, by both whites and non-whites. To change the name of the list would in no way deny white privilege. To say that only whites need to learn about these issues, which is what the title is implying, is discriminatory and untrue. If you want to bring people together to understand and fight against injustice and prejudice, you shouldn't begin by singling out one race. It is hypocritical.

There are no people who somehow exempt from being the victim of racist thought and speech. It is entirely possible to be racist against white people.

In fact, the title of this group is racist against white people.

Though I am not white, I request please to the list owner that the name be changed to something that is not offensive and racist.

I also request a renaming. When you say that all "insert colour here" people need to do anything, it's a racist comment. Period. Get off your high horse and learn something. Who knows, maybe it will change you for the better.

Oh, and by the way, from a comment you made a week ago when you said, "which white people often are".... Another flat out unapologetic generalization from your POV. Please, stop trying to educate people... You've got your ideals a little twisted.

Racial shaming against one group does not undo the historical sufferings of another. Seriously stop.

I'm really sorry you feel attacked Leanne, but you have done more than your fair share of attacking here, and seem completely oblivious to the feelings and opinions of others, so maybe you need to reflect on whether you're feeling attacked unjustly or if you may have instigated that attack by being insensitive to other human beings. Just something to consider.

It's "Lianne", not "Leanne". And I'm sorry you feel that way. But really this "conversation" (not really that since it's just several people repeating our opinions over and over again...) has exhausted me and I want no further part in it. If this list's name is changed I will be sad and disappointed, but I don't want to put any more emotional investment into this. Kindly leave me alone.

Racism can be exhausting, but it is something to fight, not to run from.

Please try to see all people as individuals.

Please try to stop nursing a grudge against prior generations.

Please refrain from racist comments or thought patterns against any and all ethnic groups.

Please try to get over racial stereotypes against all groups, including your own, whatever that may be.

Please most of all, stop trying to see yourself as an oppressor or as an oppressed. It stops progress.

Ignoring race, racism, and yes, white privilege does nothing to stop it from existing. To be a good ally, white people (myself included in that group) need to recognize our privilege and listen to people of color when they talk about their experiences. If you're offended by the title, I suggest you read all the books on this list and get an idea of what real racism at a societal level is -and spoiler alert: the title of this list isn't a part of that. If you're more concerned about the title of this list than actual racism, kindly take a step back and examine your priorities.

Hello and peace to all.

Being of mixed race gives a different perspective.

This is a public list targeting an entire ethnic group on the racist assumption that all "white people" have some deficiency that will be addressed by reading certain books.

In short, the underlying principle of this list is racist and this is a racist list.

If it were called "Books that help overcome racism", that would be great.

From my direct and daily observation it is clear that today there is more racism directed towards the whites than there is coming from them.

When you have lived with the direct and daily consequences of racism all your life, when racism is not something you read about in books while in high school, the perspective changes.

At some point you want to find the individual, not their race.

I actually did a google search for this exact list, and was very happy to find it on Goodreads, a site I participate in!
I've read many books from various perspectives, but it's nice to see what people of color think are the best books to represent their history and culture. I think there's something generous about saying 'Read this, it will help you understand.'
It really irritates me that the Help is number 2. It's fine and I enjoyed it, but it's not a good example for the list.
And I'd recommend 'Kindred' 100x over

Athens wrote: "From my direct and daily observation it is clear that today there is more racism directed towards the whites than there is coming from them."

Wow. You really just said that.

Courtney and Lysmerry, thanks for commenting; you are a breath of fresh air in what's been a very unpleasant thread lately. Lysmerry, I agree, The Help is a rather disappointing book to have near the top of this list. I haven't read that one myself, but I've seen enough reviews of it written by black people to figure it probably doesn't belong here.

If someone claims that racism is impossible against white people simply because they are white people (an evidently untrue assumption from direct experience), how can those very same people put themselves in the position of being self-proclaimed experts on racism?

They do not know anything at all about racism.

If a person has never experienced racism directly, as I and many others have, they are just parroting what they were told while visiting their all-white high school for a few years.

I appreciate those who want to fight racism, but if they claim never to have experienced it, where does the expertise flow from?

Learn to see people as individuals and find peace.

Thank you!

What is literally going on here is whites trying to "school" people of color about what racism is!

Please consider that for a moment.

Should the people of color bow to this white expertise and simply agree?

I most certainly do not claim to be an expert on racism. Because, as I've said, I've never experienced it. That's my whole point. That's not saying I'm an expert; that's just saying that it's obvious that I and other people of my race do not experience racism. Fact. Racism is an institution that benefits me. Therefore I can't be a victim of it.

Don't listen to my white opinion; read one of the many, many things written by people of colour on this topic. Here are just a couple of examples: http://www.edchange.org/multicultural... and http://www.antiracistworkshop.org/def...

Please try to follow the words of the great peace leaders throughout history and do not hold racist attitudes towards any people, including whites.

It's possible to imagine some folks who are insulated and live only around and with white people, so their thoughts are not based on direct experience. All they can get is what is offered in white high schools with all the other white kids.

For me, being mixed race, living in a mixed family and a diverse neighborhood, I can assure anybody from direct experience that racism and racist attitudes against whites surely do exist. Any who wish to deny my experience are free to do that, but their assertions lack the ring of truth.

I can understand that in a strictly academic environment which is whites-only, this kind of racism is harder to see.

Maybe these folks have never seen anti-white racism first-hand because they never encounter people of color. I would hope they are not actually avoiding people of color, because we are not harmful simply because of color of our skin, promise.

If people cannot bring up direct associations because they are surrounded by only white people, maybe there are some anti-white racial slurs that could be considered, like the hateful racist word "cracker", or the recent term we heard in the Zimmerman trial "creepy-ass cracker". That is a racial slur, so maybe it will help to consider that in reaching for understanding.

Please, we should all try to rise above racist attitudes towards any persons, including white people.

Thank you!

The idea that "white people" need to read certain books simply because they are white is a hateful racist idea, and one that we all need to get beyond.

Chelsea wrote: "The concept of white privilege is the idea that white people have certain privileges over other ethnic groups, white people having the most privileges because they are the majority (in the western ..."

Thank you, Chelsea, for making an exceptional point and coming across respectfully while doing so.

Hi and thank you Elisa.

I too agree with Chelsea that "... out of respect for those who are offended, and to avoid further misunderstandings, I think it should be changed".

Well said, Chelsea.

Please stop racism against all groups, including white people.

Could the owner of the list here please consider the multiple requests to rename it to something less racist?

I think this list is great! People calling it "racist" clearly don't understand the concept. Keep doing what you do, you're great! (But yeah, The Help is a bit problematic with the whole white-savior-thing)

Hi Frida, and thank you for joining the discussion.

It is great when a person sees some of these books as being valuable to themselves as an individual, when they feel they need to fight racism within their own mind. I have read several myself.

Racism needs to be a thing of the past, including racism against white people.

Maybe being in Sweden you are surrounded mostly by white people and do not see instances of racism against them. I say “them” because I am mixed race and cannot identify myself as “white”.

Because of this, I have experienced my share of racism very directly over my whole life. I have had plenty of racial hatred directed at me, in my face, from non-whites. There has been much less from whites, to be truthful.

Also, I have seen plenty of racial hatred directed at white people from nonwhites in both words and actions, direct experience over and over again -- not just ideas that got spoon-feed in a high-school or college classroom.

Yes, Frida, I can assure you from experience that there is racism against white people in America, and plenty of it, every single day.

The books on the list are fine. The problem is the idea that ALL white people need to read them is flat-out racist.
That is why many of us here have requested that the group name be changed.

Thanks for your consideration and I wish you all the best!

Athens wrote: "Hi Frida, and thank you for joining the discussion.

It is great when a person sees some of these books as being valuable to themselves as an individual, when they feel they need to fight racism ..."

So, you're not white, but you say you experience racism against white people every day. That makes a lot of sense... (I hope you pick up on my sarcasm here.)

I will repeat my request that the name stay the same, since it's accurate and appropriate.

Please all participants, can we not use personal assaults, sarcasm or other forms of hate on each other?

Lashing out at others is not a road to peace, nor a road beyond racism.

Direct observation with your own eyes is a form of expedience, yes.

Thank-you to all for a lively and healthy discussion!

I would like to offer hopes and concerns that no persons of any color are the victims of race-motivated hate crimes.

There have been a number of violent racial hate crimes against white people in the news lately, all across America.

Let’s continue to pray for all victims of racism, including the white people who have been attacked, and some killed, in race hate violence.

Lianne (The Towering Pile) wrote: "I don't think The Help should be on this list. (And it definitely shouldn't be near the top!) Every review I've read of that book that was written by a black person says that that book is really he..."

And the white author seems to have stolen many of the stories from the actual experiences of a Black woman to whom she gives none of the credit.

Lianne (The Towering Pile) wrote: "I don't think The Help should be on this list. (And it definitely shouldn't be near the top!) Every review I've read of that book that was written by a black person says that that book is really he..."

And the white author seems to have stolen many of the stories from the actual experiences of a Black woman to whom she gives none of the credit.

Lianne (The Towering Pile) wrote: "And I'm politely pointing out that there is no such thing as racism towards white people."

I'm sorry if I offend you, but that is one of the most ridiculous and potentially dangerous things I have ever read. What do you call the horrible treatment Irish, German, and Italian immigrants to US received in the past, if not racism? What do you call the killing of Christopher Lane, whose murderer tweeted things like “90% of white ppl are nasty. #HATE THEM”? So those young men did not commit an act of racism when they brutally murdered that man simply because he was white and they were bored? There is a video of a well-educated man, with a doctorate, saying that the source of all problems are white people and they should all be exterminated. Are you telling me that is not hate-speech?

The fact that you have never personally experienced racism as a white person, doesn't mean nobody has. That sentiment you expressed is dangerous because it sends the message that it is okay to be prejudiced and hateful towards whites because it is “impossible to be racist to a white person.” I suggest you move to an area where whites are a minority and you will see firsthand just how impossible it is to be racist to whites.

I agree with Chelsea that there is a difference between prejudice and oppression. I also agree that the name of this thread should be changed. Everyone needs to learn about racism, not just those of one race. And yes, it is hateful to suggest that only white people are capable of racism.

In fact, a white person claiming that white people are the only ones capable of racism is a form of white supremacy. You are, in effect, saying, "white people are special, no one else is capable of what they are capable of." People are people. Everyone, everywhere, no matter the color of their skin, is capable of hate and prejudice. To suggest otherwise is just plain racism.

Emma wrote: "In fact, a white person claiming that white people are the only ones capable of racism is a form of white supremacy. You are, in effect, saying, "white people are special, no one else is capable of..."

Wow, you just nailed it. This group is essentially racist people under the racist assumption that all "white people" need to read certain books because whites are racist! Wow, thank you!

lol, I can't believe I was just called a white supremacist for saying that there's no racism against white people. That's an argument I've never seen before. *shakes head in amazement*

We (the people who understand the point of this list) all understand that you don't like it. Is it really necessary that you stick around, reiterating your points again and again and attacking those of us who don't agree with you?

Being white does not make you smarter than other people. You may think that, but it is not true.

Athens wrote: "Being white does not make you smarter than other people. You may think that, but it is not true."

It's remarkable how you've tried to turn this around on me. No one here said that white people were smarter than anyone else.

Now kindly leave me alone.

It is unfortunate to see any person indulge in self-loathing because of their race. This includes when any white person does it.

Please find respect for all peoples, regardless of their race.

Please stop mob violence and racially targeted attacks, including those on any race.

As a person of mixed race, it is amazing whenever white people are trying to "school" me on what my opinions should be regarding racial politics.

Lianne, it's actually humorous to me that you have repeatedly asked to be left alone and yet you can't seem to refrain from continued conversation.

Emma has made one of the most articulate and obviously educated arguments on this board and you STILL continue a completely uncompromising attitude to this conversation.

"Is it really necessary that you stick around, reiterating your points again and again and attacking those of us who don't agree with you?"

Indeed!!??

We are the group that has originally disagreed with you, and you feel the need to attack, dismiss, and insult the opinions that contradict your own. We understand your opinion on this matter and the name of the group, we just don't agree with it, and I personally find you opinion to smack of one that is conjured from regurgitated text book learning, and very little actual experience. I realize you are young, and probably only a little more living will make you honestly contemplate your own idealism.

I assume that you actually care for people, otherwise this would be a strange place to have a conversation. I hope that you continue to educate yourself, but I also hope that you learn to open your mind to opposing opinion and different walks of life that may have more, or different, life wisdom to offer.

Cassandra wrote: "Lianne, it's actually humorous to me that you have repeatedly asked to be left alone and yet you can't seem to refrain from continued conversation."

Quite right you are. I'll cease "feeding the trolls" as of now.

Hate speech such as calling people "trolls" because one disagrees with them is a near cousin to racist rhetoric.

Please do not call others "trolls" or other hateful angry names.

Please help to overcome racism by helping to overcome violent and disrespectful hatred in all areas, including one's own thoughts and words.

Athens you really need to do some more reading or find something else to do with your time. Seriously you have spent nearly a year (?) trolling this group. I can't imagine how you can be so butthurt over the name of this group. Its jus group of books that might be helpful for white people to read to understand other peoples life experience. obviously white people have a very different lived experience to P.O.C just like women have a different lived experience to men. if you do not understand white privilege you are always going to be confused by the concept of racism and white supremacy. I think only positivity could come from white people learning more from other cultures from their stories and not jus generic stereotypes from tv and movies. Here is a cool article that might help you understand what racism really means because you have kinda got it twisted.

http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-rac...

I would like to give a special recommendation to the book 1491 by Charles Mann, and its sequel 1493. It is truly a revelation, challenging the idea taught over generations that the Americas were wild and sparsely populated, that the native peoples did not alter the land. This idea is harmful in that it leads to the belief that white conquerors took over a largely 'virgin' territory.
1491 counters this claim by showing the various advanced civilizations in both North and South America, including previously obscured cities surrounding the Mississippi river. It also shows how the original inhabitants altered the landscape through canals and farming, and that the land was anything but untouched.
1493 is another phenomenal read, tracing the huge impact that European contact with the Americas had on the entire world, and the massive, heartbreaking devastation that contact wrought on the original peoples. Through increased familiarity with these civilizations and cultures, we can get a glimpse of the profound cultural legacy that was in many instances swept away.

Lysmerry wrote: "I would like to give a special recommendation to the book 1491 by Charles Mann, and its sequel 1493. It is truly a revelation, challenging the idea taught over generations that the Americas were wi..."

Thanks for the recommendations, Lynsmerry! Those sound really interesting. I've added 1491 to my wishlist.

Thanks for the recommendation on 1492. I have heard a lot good about it.

Generalizing about a racial group constitutes a racist act. It is the definition of racism.

This list is racist in its core, so I am obliged to speak against it.

Please do not be racist against white people as a group.

I suggest that whites (which I am not, well I am partly) read books about self-defense along with books about cultural differences, etc. They are just as prone as anyone in the US to be the target of racially-motivated violence and should know how to protect themselves and their families.

Racism against white people does not exist so can every white person please stop being a crybaby and devote their time to actually educating themselves by, oh, maybe reading these books?
White people are inherently racist, and we are not going to be any less racist by putting useless crap about hurt feelings on the internet. Seriously, comparing being butt-hurt about a TITLE OF A LIST to actual racism, you know, people getting killed, arrested, harrassed for the colour of the skin (hint: it's not white people).