Comments on Books White People Need to Read - page 4

Stereotyping all "white people" as needing to do something such as read certain books because of their racial deficiency is simply racist.

Restated, this list supports the racist assumption that whites as a class are racists. I have also seen it asserted here in this discussion that ONLY whites are racist, which is an absurdity and goes counter to years of personal evidence to the contrary.

It is not OK to characterize all "white people" as uniquely deficient in some regard.

With greetings to those new to our discussion, I shall add that I am not white. I am not defending any individuals because of their race, but it is everyone's duty to stand against racist ideas, including racist ideas pointed at white people.

Telling somebody to "talk about this somewhere else" is an attempt to silence their voice, correct?

As free men and women, we have some obligation to stand against racism, including racism against white people, and including not being intimidated or silenced by those who wish us to go "somewhere else".

I'm unfollowing this comment section now, like I should have a year ago, for the sake of my personal happiness. Anyone here who actually wants to discuss the books on the list, feel free to message me and/or send me a friend request! :)

Wow...I don't think the title of this list was to say "All white people are evil Klan-Lovers and they must read these books to save their damned souls." I think it was just saying it might open some stuff up about some the experiences that non-white people have that white people may not know much about.

Honestly every time I hear the phrase 'white privilege' I cringe a little, but being queer I can kind of understand where it comes from. It just means that white people don't have to worry about the kind of shit that POC do (in the United States, can't speak for other countries). I don't think it means that if you're white your life is easy and you've never experienced hardship, or that your life is automatically less difficult than that of any random POC, although some people may interpret the term as such.

I can't recommend Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism highly enough. I'm white and it really opened my eyes to aspects of American racism I had never heard about before.

Redri9hthand wrote: "This list disgusts me, and is so typical of today's America.
Thank God I'm White and smart enough not to be suffering from the pathetic "White Guilt Syndrome" as those of you who perpetuate this si..."
It's not 'white guilt syndrome.' The purpose of these books is NOT to make you personally feel guilty about existing. The point is that white culture is the most dominant culture in the west and in many ways its success was built on exploitation of other peoples. It's more comfortable to ignore that, but your pride in refusing to look at it means a closed mind, a mind that is not, indeed, 'smart.' You can disagree with these books, but they should be given a chance.
Most of these books are not about direct exploitation but about the experiences of people of different races which you may not have thought of or encountered before. They do contain a lot of uncomfortable facts or opinions. You don't HAVE to read these books- I personally think the title should be "Books White People Should read." But complaining about its existence suggests you are happy being willfully ignorant.

There is no such thing as a book that a "white person" either needs to or should read. It is a racist notion, and this is a racist list, created and compiled by anti-white racists, including some white individuals who somehow think that having a case of white guilt will make them better than other people.

This is a pretty offensive concept.

Agreed.

A reminder - this list is focused on non-fiction and memoir that comes from an anti-racist view point. Other books can go on other lists! Make you own - the glory of Goodreads is that you get to do that.

I love this list and have read many of the books you have recommended. To those I might add a few: Natchez Burning" and "The Bone Tree" by Greg Iles are an interesting look of life in the 60's where I grew up and unresolved Civil Rights cases in Mississippi, a fictionalized version. Also, "The Feast of All Saints" is a look at culture in New Orleans.

Susan wrote: "I love this list and have read many of the books you have recommended. To those I might add a few: Natchez Burning" and "The Bone Tree" by Greg Iles are an interesting look of life in the 60's wher..."

This is a community list (like all listopias), so if you want to see something else on it, just vote for it!

But no fiction please!

What books are you complaining about?

Saying that any individual "needs" to read this or that book BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN very clearly fits under the definition of flat-out racist speech, if not hate speech.

Sophie wrote: "I can't recommend Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism highly enough. I'm white and it really opened my eyes to aspects of American racism I had never heard about before."

That's excellent - I've always wanted to read that book and now you've bumped it up the list!

Hi Athens -

You have indicated that you are not a white person. I am a white person. I want to become educated about what I, as a person with white skin, can learn about experiences that I have no access to because of my skin color. For example, Why Do All the Black Kids Sit Together in the Cafeteria? is a question that I, ignorant white person that I am, have actually asked other white people. I read that book and learned something. It was great.

I found this list and was very happy to have such a clearly-defined resource.

Are you objecting to me having a clearly-defined resource for book recommendations based on my skin color? Or are you objecting to me learning about the experiences of people of other races in the first place? In your opinion, would it be better to not acknowledge that race differences exist at all, or do you think it would be better for people with different skin tones that tie them socially to different racial identities celebrate their differences and focus on education, understanding, and parity achieved through that sharing of experiences?

Some background on who is asking: I, as a white person, saw the title of this list on listopia and said, "Perfect! Just what I was looking for. I am white. I would like to know what I should read with that qualifier in mind." I would very much like it if you would not take this resource away from me and other white people who are interested in finding information tailored just for us. Erasing my whiteness from my book-choosing decisions won't erase the questions that I have because I am white. When I think about my whiteness and what I should read because I am white, it's the same way I think, "I am Christian. What books by Muslims can I read to understand Islam and the experiences of Muslims?" Too often I come across a list that says "Books Christians Should Read" - and it's all books by Christians about Christianity! Well, I guess Christians should read those books - but I personally wouldn't feel challenged or interested by a lot of repetition of the things I hear on Sundays.

I read to go outside of my experiences. My identity markers are useful shortcuts that I can take to find an experience that will be new and educational for me. It sounds like you are not comfortable with that because "the notion that I as a man of color in some way need whites to be "sensitive" to my "oppression" is absurd." Well, you don't get to control what I choose to become sensitive to, whether I want to learn more about race or masculinity or gayness or poverty or immigration or the prison system. This list is clearly here for me, then, not you. In fact, the quote I've taken from your Feb 6, 2014 post sounds like an indication that you do not want white people to be informed about race history, politics, oppression, and discrimination at all. I'm sorry that I can't find a more delicate way to word my next question, but rest assured it is not meant as an attack: Why do you want to limit white people's education about race?

But now here's an interesting difference. I'm also pansexual. And I've experienced some really negative stereotyping and hurtful hate speech because of that. So when I see a list called "Books LGBT Should Read," I'm happy when the list has authors speaking from the LGBT experience. I know, opposite! So my last question is: are you upset, because you have experience with individual white people experiencing stereotyping and hate speech, that the contents of the recommendations that have been made on this list are not from the perspective of white people who have had negative experiences because of their whiteness?

Anyway, you have had a long dedication to this thread and have been active in it in the last month, so I know I can count on you to respond to my questions and help me understand where you are coming from. I don't think anyone will 'change their minds' (which has never actually happened on the internet). And since the title of this list comes from a different source and is defined by the context of that source, we all know the title won't be changing either. But as long as we can get a clear picture of where each person is coming from, we can respectfully acknowledge each other's truth. "I see your truth from your eyes." Thank you! (Also, a preemptive note: please do not resort to all-capital letters in your response to me, as in your post on June 4 2015. All-caps are generally read as mean yelling on the internet and can lead to hurt feelings, and it's pretty obvious that's not the point of a discussion thread where we can all peacefully respect each other's opinions.)

Tana wrote: "Hi Athens -

You have indicated that you are not a white person. I am a white person. I want to become educated about what I, as a person with white skin, can learn about experiences that I have no..."
Excellent post. This is exactly how I feel and I appreciate your calm, balanced tone.

I am so happy that The Help is has been removed or is no longer in one of the top spots. :) Anyone know how that happened?

Hello Tana. I have already explained what is racist about this list. Please refer above.

Hi Athens - I am sorry for the misunderstanding, but I am not asking the question "what is racist about this list" of you. You're right - I have read your opinions on that subject already. And if you are not interested in engaging in further dialogue on the subject of this list, please indicate so! I do not wish to interrupt your life. But if you are interested, please allow me to explain that I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.

The questions I did ask have not yet been addressed by your comments on this list - at least, not in a way that makes sense to me. I might understand your frustration: I've also spent hours carefully explaining my opinions, certain I was being obvious and clear, only to realize later that what I thought was perfectly obvious was, in fact, shrouded by the mystery of where my opinions were coming from. I discovered that no one truly understood me. I hope to not only hear your opinions ("the name of this list is racist." "the notion that I as a man of color in some way need whites to be "sensitive" to my "oppression" is absurd."), but to truly listen to, understand, and honor those beliefs which shape your perspective.

These are the questions I asked:

Are you objecting to me having a clearly-defined resource for book recommendations based on my skin color? Or are you objecting to me learning about the experiences of people of other races in the first place? In your opinion, would it be better to not acknowledge that race differences exist at all, or do you think it would be better for people with different skin tones that tie them socially to different racial identities celebrate their differences and focus on education, understanding, and parity achieved through that sharing of experiences?

....Why do you want to limit white people's education about race?

....or are you upset, because you have experience with individual white people experiencing stereotyping and hate speech, that the contents of the recommendations that have been made on this list are not from the perspective of white people who have had negative experiences because of their whiteness?

If you are interested in engaging in this dialogue, I hope to understand not only what your opinions are but why you hold those opinions - and in this way to learn something new. This is why I have asked the questions that I've asked. Please feel free to disregard my posts if my questions in some way offend or make you uncomfortable. My interest is in a comfortable, respectful conversation - I don't want to make you feel forced into anything. The invitation is open. Thank you!

Grant wrote: "Why title this "Books White People Need To Read?" I find this slightly ignorant. These are books that ALL people should read. I hardly condone all of the actions and attitudes of my ancestors. A li..."

Agreed a 100%. Imagine what would happen if someone put up a list of books titled "Books Black People need to read", regardless of what the list contained.

Lianne (The Towering Pile) wrote: "I don't think The Help should be on this list. (And it definitely shouldn't be near the top!) Every review I've read of that book that was written by a black person says that that book is really he..."

Oh, thank you! I see it was removed. I did not like that book, and you have pinpointed the attitude which I detected and could not name.

This list needs to be renamed to something more civilized. I have never contended that the list needs to be deleted, but that the title of the list is offensive and racist.

To any who suggest that my comments are intended to limit their access to content, please know that I've never suggested anything along those lines.

Why are there anti-Jewish books in the list? Seriously, henry ford's the international jew? Jewish Supremacism? Then the secret relationship between Jews and blacks? I don't have a problem or a knee-jerk reaction to the list saying 'books white people should read' because despite my skin color I don't like identifying as white in any shape or form, (I'm what would be called an ethnic minority) but I do have a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to hatred, and these three books sound like hatred. I will not be engaging in whatever dialogue will come after my comment, but ugh, I'm tired of hearing how Jewish experiences are minimized and degraded by various peoples, with many claiming that Holocaust never happened, (does that mean I can pick and choose to believe what history happened to other white people?) or that Jews rule the world through media and banking, (why is christmas given far more attention than any Jewish holiday then? Why do Jewish people have to explain millions of times to other people about the holidays they are celebrating?) or something about 'Chosen People'.

Being Chosen means leading a righteous life that should be a beacon for others, it doesn't mean Jews are better than others, in fact, being chosen means life becomes more difficult. (Seriously, did Frodo have a great life when he becomes chosen as a ringbearer? Or did I miss something when I was reading Tolkien's Lord of the Rings?)

And its interesting that the person above me uses negative Jewish quotes stirring up paranoia and hatred instead of being fair and balanced by using other non-Jewish sources.

The world and life has taught me that roses don't exist, only thorns exist, thus I wish that those who cannot see the thorns and don't respect others will get the taste of medicine that many on the bottom experience.

Is there a pdf version of this list yet??

Lianne (The Towering Pile) wrote: "And I'm politely pointing out that there is no such thing as racism towards white people. If you disagree, and aren't willing to read the books on this list to learn, your continued arguments here ..."

until we quit using race as a way to define other people it will continue to separate us...

rac·ism.


[ˈrāˌsizəm]
NOUN
1.prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:

If you believe that one race is "superior" to another because they have more understanding or knowledge of a topic based on the fact that they are a different color then you are being racist and are a prime example of how reverse racism works.
Here's a definition for you:
Reverse racism is a phenomenon in which discrimination, sometimes officially sanctioned, against a dominant or formerly dominant racial or other group representative of the majority in a particular society takes place, for a variety of reasons, often initially as an attempt at redressing past wrongs.

Why is Ann Coulter here?

Read the description of the list.

Lianne (The Towering Pile) wrote: "I don't think The Help should be on this list. (And it definitely shouldn't be near the top!) Every review I've read of that book that was written by a black person says that that book is really he..."

Amen! What a ridiculous book to include on such list.

Athens wrote: "Does the name of this list strike anybody as racist?

To be more direct, the name of this list is racist.

How can this list exist without a presupposed and prejudiced stereotype of what white peop..."
I'm afraid that you might not be clear on what racism is.

Hello Martha,

I am interested.

For background, I am not white and I assert without equivocation that this list bears a racist title against white people.

Please help me get clear about your idea of racism?

the book "don't make the black kids angry" definitely doesn't belong on this list.

Elease, why do you say that?

Why is this racist swill of a list still here? Please rename to something that is not disgusting.

I don't really understand why Rape of Nanking is on this list, unless y'all think that racism by the Japanese against the Chinese is something that white people have caused? Or that y'all acknowledge that the Japanese have been, historically, utter dicks to the rest of East Asia?

Athens wrote: "Hi Lianne and thank you for your thoughtful reply. I honestly request no explanation from you, especially one that could be tiresome, as you say.

I do ask that you please stop the hurtful racism o..."

Well said.

I added MLK's "Where do we go from here". This is his last book. I read it earlier this year and found it not just eloquent and profound, but extremely topical even in 2016.

I find the title somewhat offensive:

"Books White People Need To Read"

The description says they are books from the article "Why I Don't Want to Talk About Race" by Steve Locke. Why not call this list "Books about Race"?

The description also says "this list is a way for white people to learn more about race, whiteness & oppression." Why not have a list of anyone who wants to learn about race, not just White people. The premise seems a bit racist, in my honest opinion.

"There needs to be discussion among people who think of themselves as white..." Well, I don't "see myself as White". I see myself as human. It just seems to me that the attitude displayed by this Steve Locke is contributing to the racial device we are witnessing these days.

Why can't we simply read books because they are well written, well researched, and informative, and not because of the color of the person who wrote it?

Joel wrote: "Well, I don't "see myself as White". I see myself as human. ..."

So true.... Well said!

The creation of this list title was a racist act from the first, and the title continues to be a racist act today.

To the point, this list title is racist filth; the most blatantly-racist artifact to be found on GoodReads.

The only upside is it serves to highlight that more racism comes from the left than it does from the right.

Joel wrote: "I find the title somewhat offensive:

"Books White People Need To Read"

The description says they are books from the article "Why I Don't Want to Talk About Race" by Steve Locke. Why not call this..."

Good news, friend. You might not see yourself as white, but many, many, many other people will and in almost all cases this will result in good things for you.

More good news: Nothing will prevent a non-white person from reading a book on this list. Yay!

Even more good news: There are books on the list by authors of various races. Woohoo!

If you don't agree with the suggestion that current white people in general might have more to learn about race than other races, because of the indisputable history of past white people, then honestly I don't know what to do for you except say to start reading the books on this list. Perhaps start with White Like Me by Tim Wise.

Athens wrote: "The creation of this list title was a racist act from the first, and the title continues to be a racist act today.

To the point, this list title is racist filth; the most blatantly-racist artifact..."

Notes on the fascinating thread that is this comment section.

You, Athens, have been commenting here for five years, during which time, according to a quick glance at your Goodreads profile, you have read zero of the books on this list. In fact, the only books you seem to have read that are even remotely related are titles like "A Nation of Takers: America's Entitlement Epidemic," which hardly seems likely to have helped you find the idea of this list any more palatable.

If you are, as you say, not white, I find it interesting that you've committed literally years of your life to defending white people against the (insidious & unconscionable, in your eyes) idea that they might generally have more to learn about the experiences of nonwhite people than nonwhite people do simply because they (white people) are white and are therefore unable to live those experiences (of nonwhite people) themselves. At the very least it seems you could acknowledge that white people are already too good at doing this for themselves, and if some white people are trying to (as they see it) better themselves by exploring what it means to be white and how white people have impacted people of other races, maybe you can just get out of the way.

I won't explain why you're wrong about this list being racist, as others before me have done so eloquently enough that had you read them with an open mind I can't imagine we'd still be here five years on.

So far your participation here has served only to drive away white people who in good faith tried to engage with you on your ideas in the hope of perhaps getting you to see that white people (yes, because of their whiteness) generally have experienced the world as white people. As people of other races experience the world as a person of the race that they are. They wanted to say to you that the title of this list is simply an advertisement, a shout, "Hey, white person, your whiteness has had an unavoidable effect on your perspective of life; these books might be good to help you expand your horizons." Now they are avoiding this list and people like me have lost out on the ability to (here) have productive intellectual discussions with other white people interested in investigating whiteness.

I did not read every comment in this thread, but I read enough to see that you have studiously ignored every ounce of the carefully crafted polite discussion of these folks, and you have repeated the same "argument" over and over and over. It is this that gives me confidence in writing this sassy, sarcastic, and somewhat personal attack on your participation here; were I to try anything else, I am 100% confident I would get the exact same response from you.

I have no hope that this comment will change your mind. My only hope is that the white people you frustrated away from here are pursuing self-education and engaging productively with whiteness elsewhere on the internet or in the real world. Rest assured that is what I will be doing. Despite your best efforts, I, a white man, will be out there oppressing the hell out of other white people by exposing them to historical knowledge and challenging them in intellectual discussions. The horror!

If you want to discuss the content of the books on this list, I'd be glad to, although I haven't yet read as many of them as I would like. If you only want to talk about the title and your misunderstanding of what racism is, I have no plans to respond.

Have a great day.

until any of you cares about anything but yourselves and your comfort and your money and your need to destroy this world for trinkets it wont matter what books you read or how you rearrange your prejudices. its all a symptom of money. of thinking about things and people in terms of money. you cant give it up though its obvious its the problem. we are all guilty of all the shitty business that goes along with thinking about people in terms of money. give up the money, turn off the electricity. the greed will always be the problem. not who has the power or the money, but that you believe in the powernof money.

What a sick title. Racism is never OK, against any group, no matter their skin color, especially in 2017.

Athens wrote: "Does the name of this list strike anybody as racist?

To be more direct, the name of this list is racist.

How can this list exist without a presupposed and prejudiced stereotype of what white peop..."


I agree Athens. Would the title of this list be allowed if another ethnicity besides white had been inserted? I doubt it.

Laurie wrote: "Did you know that White people created Western Civilization..."

Someone should create another list to compete with this one called 'Books While people should read to learn about their own history' that covers all the greatest accomplishments of human civilization: Greek Philosophy and Athenian Democracy; Mathematics of Euclid to Newton to Poincare; Architecture of Vitruvius, Brunelleschi, and Palladio; Physics of Einstein and Planck; Chemistry of Lavoisier and Pauling; Biology of Linnaeus, Darwin, and Crick/Watson; Medicine of Hippocrates, Galen, Vesalius, Harvey, Lister, and Pasteur; the great philosophical though of Aristotle, Descartes, Kant, and Spinoza; Economics of Smith, Marshall, and Keynes; Great literary works of Shakespeare, Dickens, and Tolstoy; artistic works of Michelangelo, Rembrant, and Renoir; Compositions of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven; inventors like Edison, the Wright brothers, and Ford; and and so on, and then point out that the vast majority of those who made the greatest contributions to the world were European.

Here's another list similar to this one:

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1...

It's called 'Books White People Really Need to Read'.

Please go there and vote for your favorites!

Joel wrote: "Laurie wrote: "Did you know that White people created Western Civilization..."

Someone should create another list to compete with this one called 'Books While people should read to learn about the..."

This is called "Required Reading List" for school and every single standardized test that I have ever taken. This list is every subject of every class. If you want to find such a list, just google "Must read books" Poof. The list, and hundreds of variations, are already present.