Comments on Best Science Fiction & Fantasy Books - page 4

Virginia wrote: "I can't seem to find neither Solaris by Lem, nor More than Human by Sturgeon, two wonderfully written science fiction novels...

And I agree with that there are a lot of books here that actually s..."

They are hard to find in used book stores (I just love spending the afternoon going through a used book store for future reading - used books have character and they are cheaper) I have been looking to read Lem for years and have not found one book in the used stores. Sturgeon's book as well.. I know I could buy them on-line but the hunting is fun.

A Wrinkle in Time! Thanks for mentioning that book.

I find Werner's message 128 to be a good expression of the idea that Sci-Fi is really a continuum moving from "hard" to "soft" to "general" to ugh . . . "fantasy". I think the reader can separate sci-fi from fantasy, but it's hard to define because a continuum has no rigid dividing lines. The more the author tries to make the events, actions and plot appear logical and possible based on an extrapolation of what's known, then the more the story leans toward hard sci-fi. However, the more the author advances the plot by making things happen by magic, such as by Harry Potter's wand, then the more the story leans toward fantasy. A difficulty arises when deciding how much logical explanation turns magic into extreme speculative science. For example, in the recent movie, The Green Lantern, was harnessing the force of "Will Power" explained enough, or was it just more Potter Magic? Does Superman get recharged from the "yellow star" or is it just magic? Shall we say, "May the Force be with you?" or just chalk it up to "Magic". Frankly, I prefer the "hard" side of the continuum, but I still enjoy a well done fantasy, too.

Card is a disgusting Mormon hypocrite who doesn't believe in addictive substances (but is addicted to giant-sized cheeseburgers). Wyrms was a powerful book but the ending grossed even me out and I'm not easily shocked. Seventh Son was absolutely unreadable from all the horrible religious beliefs in it, and The Folk of the Fringe was a wet dream of how everyone else dies except the Mormons who inherit the earth. Eeurgh.

Ender's Game is an amazing book, but,Frank Herbert created a fantastic universe that is because y vote for Dune for the number 1, and Ender's Game for 2

Antoine wrote: "Much as I love Hitchhikers, it seems like a sad statement that the second greatest SF book of all time is a parody of the genre."

I find it sad you think that of the books. If you can't make fun of yourself, you sure can't make fun of others. You call it parody, I find it the most brilliant of SF, there are so many. I'm chuffed it's the 2d greatest. Now for that cup tea.

I can't stand corn, cheese, or Douglas Adams.

Write a better book?

There were many books here that I'd forgotten I'd read, and some that I remembered that I'd wanted to read and then forget about (though most SF is usually a bit low on my priority list these days). Many of these books were my first exposures to questioning the way I thought about the world, and often were my favorite parts of the school curriculum. Thumbs up for dystopian allegory!

heidi wrote: "Virginia wrote: "I can't seem to find neither Solaris by Lem, nor More than Human by Sturgeon, two wonderfully written science fiction novels...

And I agree with that there are a lot of books her..."

try ABEbooks.com

Cyberovski wrote: "Write a better book?"

Who said I was a writer? We're not all writers on here, are we? I'm just a reader and reserve the right to gush or snark as I desire.

I myself am an Expert Reader.That's what I tell my writer friends. I would never say write a better book. how rude. Yes Ruby you may gush, snark as you desire unless it's about one of Favourite books ;-p

(humour intended)

I love science fiction, but I enjoy the mix of scifi with romance and dabs of paranormal. I am biased, but I love Shifter Evolutions, books 1-6. When I'm bored with tv, I'll read them again and again. amiblackwelder.blogspot.com

Harumph. Animal Farm does not resemble science fiction in any slight way. It's not even on the line. Weird it's on the list.

Zoe wrote: "True! I found his work hard to get through and gave up. although it had some nice imagery nothing fit together."

I don't know you, but already I think you are completly bonkers...

If someone tried to sneak a fantasy book into this list, is there a way to delete it?

I agree that Animal Farm is in no possible way science fiction. It's not even fantasy really any more than Watership Down is.

ah, the big shelving question: is something fantasy just because there are sentient animals in it? If there is no magic, no mystical bits, just the animals are people?

The debate between what is fantasy and what is science fiction is tendentious, and I don't believe it's up to the librarians to decide for everyone.

Ruby wrote: "I can't stand corn, cheese, or Douglas Adams."

Wrong on two,and the visualizations of 3 are hilarious.

The difference between the two genres of fantasy and science fiction is very easy to discern. Those who think it's complicated are trying to puff up their self-importance. Could it conceivably happen once science develops far enough? If yes, science fiction. Does it contain elements of magic or does the plot rely on supernatural elements? If yes, fantasy, unless it's religion/mythology or horror, i.e. primarily designed to explain the world in supernatural terms, or frighten or horrify someone.

See? Not so tendentious. No pretensions needed.

If we were to use your definition, most classic works of science fiction would be considered fantasy. As I pointed out above, FTL and psi dooms it. Furthermore, many readers genuinely make no distinction between the two. Why do you think bookstores shelve them together?

I'm certainly not going to use my librarian powers to impose my judgments on others. (The way I read the rules, it's for deleting mistakes.) As far as I'm concerned, I'll let the stuff people consider to be good science fiction rise to the top of the list. If that includes Animal Farm, so be it.

First off, _Animal Farm_ is an allegorical satire. The author, his original publishers, real librarians (I work in a real library), Amazon, and Wikipedia agree on that.

Science fiction should at a bare minimum include something related to the idea of science in some way. _Animal Farm_ is written in a way opposite to that idea, never touching on the ideas of science or the future. It's like calling Edgar Allen Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado" a newspaper article. It's obviously a mistake, not a difference of opinion. Just because some people haven't figured out that _Animal Farm_ doesn't include a single trope of science fiction doesn't make it science fiction.

Also, I don't know why you're talking about fantasy. Do you consider _Animal Farm_ to be fantasy? Dan and I are saying that it's not science fiction _or_ fantasy.

On another note, what does "FTL and psi dooms it" mean? Is a word missing?

I think what Xenophon means is that Faster than Light and psi powers are considred by many scientists as impossible, ever, and that therefore stories which include these elements can't be classified as science fiction. This argument is so ridiculous - for example, under it Star Trek could not be called science fiction because the Enterprise goes faster than light - that I refuse to waste further time dignifying it by debating it. Besides, scientists recently discovered some particles right here on earth that move faster than light. FTL is scientifically conceivable, as are psi powers. Teleportation has been called scientifically impossible at an earlier time too, yet we are beginning to be able to teleport some matter now, and have 3-D copiers.

I do admit that on occasion the line between science fiction and fantasy can become blurry. I think that happens extremely seldom, however. In fact, in all my years of reading hundreds of books in the genres I have only come across one book (or series) I could not comfortably classify as one or the other. That series or book is Witch World by Andre Norton. The way the protagonist enters the alien world is through a gateway made with advanced alien technology, suggesting science fiction. However, some of the inhabitants of the alien world practice sorcery, which suggests fantasy. To make matters even more confusing, Norton leaves open a possible scientific explanation for the sorcery, though she never attempts one. The line here is as ambiguous as it could possibly be, not because someone is looking to stir up a specious argument, as probably in Xenophon's case, but because Norton truly manages to straddle the line.

Anyway, this is the only truly problematic example of drawing a distinction between the two genres I have ever encountered, though I have no doubt more exist.

Animal Farm is unambiguously neither science fiction nor fantasy any more than Charlotte's Web or Jack London's Call of the Wild are. Talking (or otherwise anthropomorphized) animals is not in itself a sufficient characteristic to make a work classifiable as fantasy, and certainly not science fiction.

Michael wrote: "On another note, what does "FTL and psi dooms it" mean? Is a word missing? "

I shouldn't have put an "s" on doom.

Personally, I think science fiction is a subcategory of fantasy distinguished by jargon, but I'm not going to impose my opinion on other voters.

Xenophons idea about sci-fi being part of fantasy is certainly defendable, however, I fully agree with Dan's apologetic.

I find it confusing to consider sf books written for young readers next to works of fiction for adults. Iain Banks' books can't really be put next to, say, "The Giver." I don't think they're in the same genre, not really.

They are both unquestionably works of science fiction. They are writing in different sub-genres, and aiming for different audiences, certainly, but both still meet the criteria of writing science fiction.

It's surprising how many people there are who want to either widen or narrow what is considered science fiction. Why? Isn't it more fun to discuss the works themselves?

Banks's Consider Phlebas is a book I have started five or six times, but can never get much past page 35 with. I wonder why that is.

Nope, you are not, I have Ender's Game sitting right here beside me and I refuse to read it. I think the Ender's are children's books. Ok, I am not impressed with Card either, I admit that. However he may bring a lot of kids to reading and I do appreciate that.

Reilan wrote: "Nope, you are not[...]"

Who is not what?

I don't see why being a children's book is a condemnation, but I tried to read Ender's Game and couldn't get into it, despite loving many children's books. It's just not particularly well-written, unlike the works of Hans Christian Andersen, A. A. Milne, C. S. Lewis, Beatrix Potter, Margery Williams
Bianco, J. M. Barrie, and the other great children's authors.

Of course, I'm sure some just don't enjoy the genre, which is always a sad thing one must respect.

I think sci-fi is in the eye of the reader. If you don't think a book is sci-fi, don't vote for it. I voted for Animal Farm even though strictly speaking it probably isn't sci-fi by my own personal definition... However, I'm not sure it fits better into any other genre, so I'm happy for it to sit on this list.

I use lists such as these to help me choose other books to read. If a couple of allegorical or fantasy books end up in there I can deal with it. And I might even like them.

I think it's hilarious that people get so passionate about the definition of sci-fi. I guess it means we all love books... and we'll fight verbal wars over their categorisation. (Surely there is a short sci-fi story in that?)

And... for the record I LOOOOOVED Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. I would call the 2nd book in the series a book for older readers.

I am female and love Enders Game. My son and daughters do as well. I like most of Card's work. I really don't care about his personality . He could be a troll as long as I enjoy the books. Heinlein had a few quirks and he's still my favorite author.

@Tania: I'm not arguing about what science fiction is because of my love of books so much as for my love of English. I love studying linguistics, particularly etymology, and am often over-annoyed by misused words. Calling Animal Farm "sci-fi" seems like calling a Texan Japanese to me. I guess it's a pet peeve.

@Michael: Fair enough. I guess that's why I like the term "speculative fiction" because it's a broader term (though way less sexy). What drew me to sci-fi in the first place was the "What if" nature of most of the premises, and for me, there's a big "What if" in Animal Farm. If Orwell had used aliens or robots instead of animals, would it then suddenly be classified as sci-fi? Would that change the nature of the book. I think not. Again, that's why I prefer the term "speculative fiction". So I equate speculative fiction with science fiction because most people don't know or use the term speculative fiction.

Further, I'd be so bold as to qualify "The Faraway Tree" as science fiction/spec-fi, at least I think it should be rubbing shoulders with sci-fi.

Lucky I don't work in your library!

Ender's Game is a children's book? I had no idea. Really. I'd heard precocious 14 year olds had read it. OK. I've read it at least 5 times since I re-read the series every time a new addition to the series comes out,but I'm not a child,and this is not Mrs. Piggle Wiggle. My son,who is quite opinionated,read this book in college,as did my daughter. They re-read it periodically as do I. From the comments,I gather disliking O.S. Card is the latest "in" thing to do. I shall try to remain an individualist despite the pressure and contine admiring and acquiring his books. I always give a book 50 pages to intrigue me. Ender's game and premise grabbed me immediately and the subject matter is not for children. Some books take more than 50 pages to drag you into a new world. I have read some that never really did. But my strategy is to never get up on a book because a book never gives up on you.

Unsure if The Hunger Games is considered "Sci-fic", but heck, everytime I see THG on a list, I click "vote". (So long as it's a 'good' list)

Any list of the best Sci-Fi should include CJ Cherryh's 'Foreigner' and Karin Lowachee's 'Warchild' :)

@Tania: Added _The Enchanted Wood_ to my to-read list. The Faraway Tree series looks very much like the sort of series I might fall in love with. Glad you mentioned it (though I suspect we'll categorize in different genres, which isn't so important.)

I agree about the robots and aliens - _Animal Farm_ (one of my favorite books, by the way) is an allegory and is therefore not interested in (and is indifferent to) a realistic world or even a terribly consistent world.

@Helga I've never heard of anyone disliking Ender's Game until this comment thread. Before this, people only recommended it to me, if they mentioned it at all. I suspect disliking Card is not one of the latest "in" things to do, but more of a constant "out" thing to do, rather like disliking Harry Potter.

Also, I'm pretty sure _Mein Kampf_ gave up on me, but I got up on it anyway.

Bob wrote: "I'm curious -- give an example of what fantasy books people consider to be SF, please."

Before I continue, I wanted to stop by and say, "Hey, folks." New here (at least to the forums...though I have been officially a "member" through a FB app for a couple of years). For some reason, have found my adolescent nerd again and have begun re-reading a lot of sf classics, and maybe pushing on to new material. So I found this list, and read all or the comments, enjoying them all.

Now, to the juice... I would contend that there are a lot of "fantasy" elements in some classic SF series. Mostly, the fantasy elements in SF tend to deal w/ psychic powers, which have been experimentally disproved as far back as Michael Faraday. And yet, SF writers tend to envision a world where mental powers are used to manipulate people or warp reality.

Here are a few...
1) Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy relies heavily on the psi powers of the Second Foundation and the Mule to drive the action.
2) The classic "Dune" series becomes more and more fantastical as it goes on. Visions of future drive Paul, the main character, who knows what he must do to keep humanity alive, while his own "human value system" is repulsed by this necessary "Golden Path." And the series grows more and more fantastical as it goes on. Consider "God, Emperor of Dune." Leto II becomes a symbiotic Sand Worm, and rules for 3500 years in order to keep the galactic empire from falling into the chaos that exists on either side of the Golden Path.
3) E.E. Smith's classic Lensman series describes a universe filled with mentalic "good guys", the Arisians, who wage a cosmic struggle against the vile Eddor through humanity by influencing human behavior.
4) Spock's Vulcan mind meld.

Ironically, these are among my favorite SF books of all time. But they are not "scientific" by any stretch of the imagination.

@Leo:

What experiments proved psychic powers can't exist in the future? You make a valid point if something like that exists, but you don't give us any clue what you're talking about. I'd be interested to know about it.

My first reaction is that anyone claiming to have disproved psychic abilities has probably ignored or not noticed the argument from ignorance logical fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument...
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant....

However, I might have not imagined what you're referring to and maybe there is some way around that.

So, what are you referencing?

I like Sci fi uunfortunately the book was not published in Indonesia.

and can I add my book at list ? :)


thanks
Time MachinePipit Di

Yes, Pipit, you're allowed to add your own book to lists.

I like to think of it this way: Speculative Fiction is a large genre that includes both Science Fiction and Fantasy. I would classify Star Trek or Foundation as Science Fiction because even though it contains elements of Fantasy, its main thrust is more towards Science Fiction.

At this point though, genres are mainly used to help people find books they are interested in and mostly a way for Publishers and Libraries/Retail to classify their products. Because of the labeling of genres can Box-In some writers, (who though they may have elements of Sci-Fi/Fantasy in their novel, but don't feel its in that genre) I do think the overall term "Speculative Fiction" works best.

Margaret Atwood's The Blind Assassin is a great example of this. The story itself is not Science Fiction however there is a Science Fiction story within the novel (which is penned by one of the characters). If this book is labeled "Sci-Fi", some Sci-Fi fans may be disappointed by it and some readers who would enjoy the book but dont like a "Sci-Fi" label may never pick it up. I think the author's intention should be the formost opinion on the matter as they are the ones looking for an audience.

I'm somewhat surprised that people really try to hold on to this sci-fi/fantasy distinction. Such categorizations are useful, but as with most categorizations, things get a bit blurry around the edges.

As others have mentioned, psychic powers and faster-than-light travel are examples of fantasy in science fiction. I'm truly amazed anyone would accuse scientists of making arguments of ignorance when dealing with psychic powers. This same argument can be used for just about anything that is fantastical.

"If you love the books on this list and are looking for people to discuss them with, join the http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/6...

Holly wrote: "I really must protest the George R. R. Martin being on this list. It is not science fiction, it is fantasy.

Also I'm borderline on the American Gods, but I really feel it is more urban fantasy tha..."

Kristine wrote: "Technically, this list should be titled "Best Science Fiction & Fantasy Books" because of the number of fantasy titles on the list."

I agree with you. I wish science fiction and fantasy were not mixed.

Allison wrote: "Tanstaafl wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Is there a difference between sci-fi and fantasy? What is the difference? And why are they always lumped together?"


Yes. A big difference.
To be blunt,
Fantasy..."

This is what I feel also but you do have to remember one of Arthur C Clarke's laws

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

A great Scifi list. I just found it & remembered some books I had forgotten & some I want to read. Thanks!

God bless.