Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Cleo wrote: "With regards to translations of The Divine Comedy, I thought some of you might be interested in this: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/sho......"

Interesting comment from Ester Maria. Can you invite her to join our group read? :)

Ben wrote: "I plan to utilize the lectures from the "Great Courses" series provided by the Teaching Company. They have a 24-lecture course focused on The Divine Comedy:(http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/co...) "

Do they have a member discount? The CDs seem to cost twice as much as Audible.com. Is it because of the superior quality of their content? :)

Nemo wrote: "Ben wrote: "I plan to utilize the lectures from the "Great Courses" series provided by the Teaching Company. They have a 24-lecture course focused on The Divine Comedy:(http://www.thegreatcourses.c..."

Many of the courses in The Great Courses Series are outstanding. I had many of them on DVD, because many of the DVDs offer a lot of very helpful visuals, such as maps, artwork, etc. I did have The Divine Comedy course, but unfortunately when I moved five years ago a very large amount of my belongings were lost in the moving process (a long and very depressing story.)

ALL of my Great Courses were lost, and they are just too expensive for me to replace at this point. I believe most libraries carry them. Unfortunately, I don't remember if The Divine Comedy offered anything special on the DVD. I'm guessing that the CD version is just as good.

Even when they have sales, they're still very expensive, IMO. Maybe we could contact them and ask for special "Goodreads" discounts on their literature courses (which they have SO MANY of.) Just a thought. If they made their courses more "reasonably priced" for active Goodreads members, they would be getting free promotion in so many ways... especially in groups (such as this one) when we're referring to their Divine Comedy course.

Nemo wrote: "Ben wrote: "I plan to utilize the lectures from the "Great Courses" series provided by the Teaching Company. They have a 24-lecture course focused on The Divine Comedy:(http://www.thegreatcourses.c..."

Go to your public library. Mine has a full collection of Great Courses, including the Divine Comedy lectures. If they don't you should talk to them about an Interlibrary Loan.

Everyman wrote: "We had two neck-and-neck contestants, The Divine Comedy and The Magic Mountain. I've put up a run-off poll.

I'm not going to announce this poll to the group at large, as I did the first poll, bec..."

Everyman, that was a very good idea, to not announce the poll to the group at large. I've seen some situations in other groups where a book gets a lot of votes, but when the time comes to discuss the book, very few people participate.

Actually, that is why I have not voted in the run-off poll yet. I would LOVE to read both The Divine Comedy AND Magic Mountain with this group, but I'm concerned about my work schedule. I've been working very long hours which makes it so difficult to keep up with "group readings." Since I'm feeling so overwhelmed by my work at the moment, I don't think it would be fair for me to vote because I don't know how much I will be able to participate in the discussion (although I do intend to read whichever book is chosen, and I intend to TRY to participate as much as possible.)

However, I do have a few questions:

1) Either Divine Comedy or Magic Mountain will be the next read. Will the book that does NOT win be a group read (or in a poll for a group read) sometime shortly after we finish book that DOES win???

2) The Aeneid is being read at an extremely reasonable pace -- one book per week. This gives everyone plenty of time to enjoy each of the twelve books and plenty of time to look-up some of the characters and locations mentioned. The Divine Comedy has so many characters that some of us may want to spend time researching, so I'm wondering if each of the three books of The Divine Comedy will be read at a fairly slow pace. Do you have an idea of how much time we would spend on Inferno, Purgatory, and Paradise???

3) I've never read The Magic Mountain, but the editions that I saw of this book have almost as many pages as the entire Divine Comedy, and based on the subject matter, it seems that it would also take quite some time to absorb. Will this also be read at a fairly slow pace??

Barbara wrote: "However, I do have a few questions:

1) Either Divine Comedy or Magic Mountain will be the next read. Will the book that does NOT win be a group read (or in a poll for a group read) sometime shortly after we finish book that DOES win???

Depends. Both these books were moderator nominations. So I would wait to see whether a moderator wants to renominate one of them in future.

If DC wins, I'm really hoping that someone will step forward and take on the moderating duties. I just don't feel that in my present situation I can do it justice. MM I can do, since while it is a wonderfully rich book I don't think it would be nearly as complex to moderate.

2) The Aeneid is being read at an extremely reasonable pace -- one book per week. This gives everyone plenty of time to enjoy each of the twelve books and plenty of time to look-up some of the characters and locations mentioned. The Divine Comedy has so many characters that some of us may want to spend time researching, so I'm wondering if each of the three books of The Divine Comedy will be read at a fairly slow pace. Do you have an idea of how much time we would spend on Inferno, Purgatory, and Paradise???

I haven't thought seriously about it yet, but yes, we would take it at a fairly slow pace as we do all our books -- these are, as Bacon said, books to be chewed and digested. The first part of Bacon's passage is widely quoted; the rest of it, less so, but it's the meat of his thought. Here it is in full: "Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention." Diligence and attention require time. We provide that time here.

In the full work there are 100 cantos, (or is it 99, Laurel?). Just thinking out loud, and I would want more discussion on this if it wins, if we allowed one month per volume, that would be 1 canto per day, which I think may be rushing it, though others may disagree. However, I don't want to commit the group to reading it forever, so I think spending six months on the work would be too much, and would risk permanently losing good members who don't want to read the whole work with us. So somewhere in there, I think, will probably be the answer. But again, this is just thinking out loud, and I will want to consult with the other moderators and the group, and definitely with whoever steps forward to volunteer to moderate if anybody does.

Not all that helpful, I realize, but ...

3) I've never read The Magic Mountain, but the editions that I saw of this book have almost as many pages as the entire Divine Comedy, and based on the subject matter, it seems that it would also take quite some time to absorb. Will this also be read at a fairly slow pace?? "

Yes. Definitely. It's a book with great riches in it. Again just thinking out loud, I suspect I would assign somewhere between 8 and 12 weeks for it, but if it wins I would take some time to review my memory of it and think what would be a good pace to allow plenty of time for giving it due diligence and attention, but not so much that an overly slow pace loses peoples' interest, particularly since we only post discussion threads on schedule, so people who read the whole book through right away will have a considerable time to wait until they get to discuss the final chapters.

It's always a balancing act deciding how long is just right for any book!

Hi Everyman,

Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to answer my questions. As I had written in my previous post, I don't think it would be fair for me to vote, due to the fact that I never know from one day to the next how many hours I will be working. So I thought that if the next group read, either Divine Comedy or Magic Mountain, is read and discussed at a similar pace as The Aeneid, maybe I would feel comfortable voting for one of them (because based on your very thoughtful answers, it does seem as though I will be able to keep pace with the group.)

BUT, I went to the poll to vote, and the two books are currently tied!! MEANING, my vote would break the tie, and I definitely don't feel comfortable with that!! Even though right now I feel as though I will be able to keep up with the group, there's always that chance that I may get more work (I'm a freelancer), and then I'll be "that crazy lady who voted, broke the tie, and now there are ten of us who are not reading the book we wanted to read and the 'crazy lady' is barely participating." LOL!!!!

I apologize for my long and rambling posts, and for all of those questions I asked in my previous post!!! May the "better book for this group at this time" win!!!!

Hi Barbara,

I've been meaning to ask you to vote since yesterday, partly for selfish reasons. :)

You don't know whether you'd have time to participate in the group discussion. None of us can be sure what happens tomorrow, whether it will rain or shine, or whether we will do this or that, but, speaking for myself, I voted because I honestly *intend* to participate. That's all Everyman asked for, vote "if you intend to participate".

"that crazy lady who voted, broke the tie,"

Your vote counts. That's the beauty of it. :)

Everyman wrote: "The Aeneid discussion is still going strong under Thomas's great leadership and our fantastic posters, but we also need to look ahead to keep the group moving forward with great reads.

I decided, ..."
Dante!! Let Virgil lead us further as the guide in Dante's Comedy.
Now for the discussion of what translator to use.

Cleo wrote: "With regards to translations of The Divine Comedy, I thought some of you might be interested in this: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/sho......"

Hi Cleo!!! I am SO HAPPY to see you here, and to be reading the same books as you again!!!

Thank you for your post on all the different translations of The Inferno. I have the Musa translation, which was not one of the favorites in the link (I believe it was said that Musa stays true to the original text, but loses the poetry in it.)

Musa's begins with:
Midway along the journey of our life
I woke to find myself in a dark wood,
for I had wandered off from the straight path.

I have this version in paperback, and I can't find it on the Nook. Actually, I have not really been able to find ANY translations on the Nook that I particularly like.

One of the versions I found on the Nook is translated by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, with an introduction and notes by Peter Bondanella. I thought this would be the version I would read (if The Divine Comedy is our next read) because I really love editions with good annotations, which this one has.

BUT, then I read the opening lines, which are:
Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.

I'm curious what the rest of the group thinks about these opening lines. Am I the only one who doesn't like this translation???

The use of "forest dark" as opposed to "dark wood" REALLY bothers me. When I think of The Inferno, one of the first things that comes to my mind is that Dante finds himself in a "dark wood." (Not a "forest dark" or any other description of the place he finds himself.)

So at this point, if we do read The Divine Comedy, I may read my paperback edition of Musa's translation (although I do have to say that I've become so used to my Nook, that it may feel weird to read an "actual" book!!!)

I'm very curious what the rest of you think of Longfellow's opening lines.

Patrice wrote: "Barbara, your integrity is truly impressive! Bravo! ;-)"

Thank you, Patrice!!!!

Nemo wrote: "Hi Barbara, I've been meaning to ask you to vote since yesterday, partly for selfish reasons. :) You don't know whether you'd have time to participate in the group discussion. None of us can be ..."

Hi Nemo,

Thank you for encouraging me to vote!! I really appreciate it, but you wrote....

"Your vote counts. That's the beauty of it."

... which is the part that scares me!!! Based on the numbers right now, my vote may count "too much." I'm not sure how much longer the poll will be up, but I think I would feel more comfortable waiting a bit longer.

AND.... I know it probably seems as though I would vote for The Divine Comedy (especially based on my recent post about the different translations), but I'm actually not sure at this point.

I'm hoping that both books will be read in this group at one point or another, and I've never read The Magic Mountain but I'm finding myself curious about it as well. (Although I'm wondering why there is not even ONE edition of The Magic Mountain available on The Nook, while there are other works by Thomas Mann.)

But thank you, again, for your encouragement!!!

Nemo wrote: "Interesting comment from Ester Maria. Can you invite her to join our group read? :)
..."

That would be my dearest wish too! Actually, I might just PM her and see if she's around. I notice that she hasn't been active since March but I may be able to get ahold of her e-mail somehow. That is, of course, assuming that The Divine Comedy is chosen .....

Barbara wrote: "I went to the poll to vote, and the two books are currently tied!! MEANING, my vote would break the tie, and I definitely don't feel comfortable with that!! Even though right now I feel as though I will be able to keep up with the group, there's always that chance..."

Yes, I feel the same as Barbara. The poll is so close that I don't want my vote to be the deciding one. I would love to read The Divine Comedy with this group but my schedule is erratic too so I couldn't promise a 100% commitment, even though that would be my plan.

Barbara wrote: "Hi Cleo!!! I am SO HAPPY to see you here, and to be reading the same books as you again!!!
..."

It's great to see you too, Barbara!! :-) It would certainly be fun to read another book together. Your input on Anna Karenina made me enjoy it 100% more than if I had just read it on my own!

Cleo wrote: "That would be my dearest wish too! Actually, I might just PM her and see if she's around. I..."

Grrr! Her inbox is too full and she can't receive further messages. Too bad!!

Barbara wrote: "Although I'm wondering why there is not even ONE edition of The Magic Mountain available on The Nook, while there are other works by Thomas Mann..."

That is curious. There are no audiobook versions of Magic Mountain either. In the Great Books of the Western World series (aka the Western Canon), "Death in Venice" was selected as Mann's most important work, but not "Magic Mountain". I wonder why.

Because Thomas Mann was influenced by Goethe and others, I personally would like to read Goethe first and then Mann.

Looks like today is the last day for this poll. Still deadlocked, 10-all. What happens if it ends in a tie?

Ben wrote: "Looks like today is the last day for this poll. Still deadlocked, 10-all. What happens if it ends in a tie?"

Indeed, it did deadlock. The moderators have started to huddle and see what we think might be the best course.

Barbara wrote: "Cleo wrote: "With regards to translations of The Divine Comedy, I thought some of you might be interested in this: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/sho......"

Barbara, I have the Longfellow translation and am enjoying it. His choice of 'forest' rather than 'wood' or 'woods' is perhaps a little American, I don't know--it did take me right away to Canada and "Evangeline" ("This is the forest primeval"), but I did not mind that.

I like Longfellow's word choices, his occasional inversion of sentence order to give us a sense that this is something aged and important but still very understandable.

By the way, if you start here http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004... you can get a copy of Longfellow's translation for Kindle or Kindle app and then get the Audible production that matches up with it for (if I remember correctly) seven dollars or so.

I still really like my Dorothy Sayers books, though.

Nemo wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Although I'm wondering why there is not even ONE edition of The Magic Mountain available on The Nook, while there are other works by Thomas Mann..."

That is curious. There are no a..."
The Magic Mountain wasn't included mostly because it's so long it would have to have a volume of its own and the editors wanted to cram all modern literature in two volumes. Joyce's Ulysses isn't included either and there's only a short fragment of Proust. Goethe influenced everybody who wrote in German after him, but I don't think in depth knowledge of his work is necessary to enjoy Mann. If I remember it well, there are more refrences to Nietzsche than to Goethe in The Magic Mountain, but I read it years ago, these are very vague memories.

Andreea wrote: "Joyce's Ulysses isn't included either and there's only a short fragment of Proust."

The editors could have included selections from Magic Mountain, just as they did Proust, but why did they omit it entirely and choose another work instead? It makes me wonder what their selection criteria are in general. On second thought, if Mann had adopted Goethe and Nietzsche's aphoristic style, perhaps there would have been no problem at all.

Knowledge of Goethe may not be necessary to enjoy Mann, but it would add more depth, perspective, colors and variations, and enhance our appreciation and enjoyment, imo.

The moderators have consulted, confabulated, contemplated, and consorted, and here's the verdict.

We're doing both. First the Divine Comedy, followed by The Magic Mountain.

Laurel has accepted the pleas and plaudits of the moderating crew (and anybody else who has ever studied a work with her as moderator), and will be moderating the Divine Comedy. This is an experience NOT to be missed.

We'll be doing the Divine Comedy one week for the Introduction and Canto 1 (which is basically an intro to the whole work), and then generally one canto per day. Which we hope is both slow enough to allow for good discussion and quick enough not to bore people. A detailed schedule will be posted closer to the start time, but in general here's how the next few months will go:

October 16, end of formal Aeneid discussion (though of course the threads remain open forever, so anybody still catching up can keep posting).

October 17 - 30 - Interim Read, to be announced at the start. Always a work available on the Internet and which can be read in one evening or so.

October 31, Divine Comedy starts. Yep, Halloween. What could be more fitting?

October 31 - December 11 - Inferno

December 12 - January 1 - Winter Break -- enjoy the holidays!

January 2 - Feb 5 - Purgatorio (And if you were out too late the night before, you may be hung over enough that you DESERVE to spend some time in Purgatory!)

Feb 6 - March 5 - Paradisio

March 6 - March 19 - Interim Read

March 20 - Start Magic Mountain -- time to read not yet set. I'll probably put something rough in the description to get it to show up on the home page as future reading, but that will be subject to change.

Any and all objections can be emailed to:
[email protected]

Everyman wrote: "The moderators have consulted, confabulated, contemplated, and consorted, and here's the verdict.

We're doing both. First the Divine Comedy, followed by The Magic Mountain.

Laurel has accepted..."

Yay!! Looks like a great way to end this year and begin the next.

Thank you to Laurel for accepting this awesome task of moderating!!

Everyman, the schedule looks fantastic. (Now I just have to hope that I can figure out a way to get all my work done AND do all of this reading!!!)

Barbara wrote: "Now I just have to hope that I can figure out a way to get all my work done AND do all of this reading!!!"

We're counting on you to make it happen!

Everyman wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Now I just have to hope that I can figure out a way to get all my work done AND do all of this reading!!!"

We're counting on you to make it happen!"

With our light reading schedule, you can read The Divine Comedy at the rate of nine minutes per day. Of course, that does not take into account the postings and the background material you may want to read.

Laurele wrote: "With our light reading schedule, you can read The Divine Comedy at the rate of nine minutes per day. Of course, that does not take into account the postings and the background material you may want to read.."

And the multiple translations you may want to read side by side. :)

I have the Mandelbaum edition, because I liked his rendition of Aeneid, and, as far as I know, he is the only person who translated both the Aeneid and Divine Comedy. But, your comments in this thread have me interested in other translators as well, such as Longfellow, Ciardi and Sayers.

C.H. Sisson also translated both Aeneid and DC. Also A.S. Kline, who apparently speaks 12 languages and has translated a great number of poetic works for free: http://www.poetryintranslation.com/in...

Speaking of Kline, I've been looking for a good translation of Faust Part II, and his was the only downloadable version I could find online.

This is good news for me. I've been wanting to do Dante for a while, but needed so much more background info to get it.
Good timing too!