Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Additions to Librarian Manual
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Titles, redux
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Honestly, I think the title name section is confusing sounding. I don't think I'm overly smart, but I'm not an idiot either and it is confusing sounding.I think that the term "match the cover" should be HEAVILY stated that it is for spelling/punctuation only and that after conferring with the books cover proper capitalization should be applied (by country standard). Also, examples of multiple languages would be a good idea or links to websites about those standards.
Also, the series section gives the examples:
Examples of series mirrored in titles:
*Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Harry Potter #1)
Now I know this is small, but this should be (PsyCop, #1). People we easily go, it doesn't appear that way in the manual... even though it shows it that way on the books edit page when placing a title.
While we are at it, there should be a section added for transliterated title names. Previously discussed before, I believe it goes:
Original Language [Transliteration] (Series)
The only reason I say this is because I run across this problem a lot in Japanese manga.
I like it. It's clear, and (as much as can be done in this case) concise.However a few things:
1) I was under the impression that "A Novel" was not included as part of the title as a subtitle.
2) Dealing with translations/transliterations in the title. Do we write it as Title [Translation]? (The reason I ask is because I can't quite remember if there was a discussion about this that reached any conclusion. Also as soon as I can find an example I'll be sure to update my post.)
3) You may want to remove PsyCop from being one of the two examples. As it stands now it's kinda ambiguous as to which meaning should be taken.
1) It does state that A Novel is not included2) http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15...
I was under the impression that this was how it was done. Transliteration not translation.
3) You mean like use a different second example? I think seeing it the WRONG way and then the RIGHT way is actually handy.
Krystal109 wrote: "1) It does state that A Novel is not includedCait wrote: "The phrase "A Novel" may or may not be considered a subtitle.
Krystal109 wrote: "Transliteration not translation."
No, I mean both.
Krystal109 wrote: "3) You mean like use a different second example? I think seeing it the WRONG way and then the RIGHT way is actually handy. "
As it is written now, there is no "right" or "wrong" with PsyCop. It is used as an example with the series mirroring as "Among the Living (PsyCop #1)", and earlier it is used as an example as to what is not a proper subtitle. If it is not to be used as a subtitle than there is nothing in the current title to assume mirroring.
N.B.: Bold is mine.
1) Oh yea, that is confusing. I was always under the impression "A xxx Novel" was not included, but stuff like "A Short Story of xxx" was okay. Basically, if it is making a reference to a series you do not use it. If it is identifying the type of book it is, you can use it.2) I don't think we ever used translations in the titles. If there is, I have not seen it or it may be someone who is mistaken between translation and transliteration (I was at the beginning and messed up a few books that way).
3) Oh I see what you mean. I didn't really notice anything wrong with it, but it can easily be replaced with another example.
Thanks, guys! I've edited the original post to include transliteration stuff and to make the capitalization separate from the "use the cover" title rule.I'm not sure I understand the problem with the PsyCop example...?
This could definitely use more non-English examples!
I will add a +1 for tranliterated titles. It was agreed that translations of titles are not include. However, tranliterations may be included as Krystal noted:Original Language [Transliteration] (Series)
I think you have done an excellent job of capturing the changes needed Cait. However I have some proposed wording changes for consideration. Please know these are only for consideration. Please feel free to vote them down. :)
title
The title should match the title shown on the cover of the book, if that information is available. Preferred capitalization is "title capitalization", which only uses capital letters for the principal words. "Title capitalization" does not use capital letters for prepositions, articles or conjunctions unless one is the first word (e.g. at, under, near, upon, by, of, a, an, the, and, but, or, etc.). However, "sentence capitalization", which only capitalizes the first word of the title, is the standard used by some languages and should be used for editions in those languages. Only use all uppercase, all lowercase, or other capitalization if the book specifies it. Note that many titles appear to be in all uppercase or lowercase letters on the cover but are not otherwise capitalized this way. Therefore, in most cases the cover is used for the words of the title, but not necessarily the capitalization.
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Under subtitles:
The phrase "A Novel Of {Something}" or "A {Something} Novel" should be considered a series indicator rather than a subtitle and should therefore
---
Regarding omnibus/boxed sets
At times multiple books may be released as an omnibus (multiple books reprinted in one book) or a boxed set. If multiple books have been reprinted together which are not part of a series and the edition does not have its own title, all of the included titles should be listed in the title field. If the edition has a separate title, the list of included titles may be treated as a subtitle or it may be omitted (if it is omitted, this information should be listed in the book description field). When titles are listed, the preferred separator is a space, a forward slash, and another space; other acceptable separators are commas and ampersands. (In addition, "Omnibus" or "Boxed Set" may be added to the 'edition' field.)
In the above, I would swap the two bolded sentences. Also, I don't remember commas or ampersands being discussed as acceptable ways of listing these titles. But that may just be my bad memory showing. :)
Looks like Cait & I cross-posted, so my suggestions may not make sense now, LOL!Anyway, on the transliterated titles, I would add that the tranliterations are only added to non-roman languages.
Examples of transliterations:
エア・ギア 1 [Ea Gia 1] (Air Gear #1)
Not:
Air Gear, Vol. 1 [Ea Gia 1] (Air Gear #1)
ETA: And also, the transliteration will be unique to each language, even for the same book. That is, the Russian tranliteration will be different than the Japanese one. I will see if I can track down some examples of this.
vicki_girl wrote: "I think you have done an excellent job of capturing the changes needed Cait. However I have some proposed wording changes for consideration. Please know these are only for consideration. Please feel free to vote them down. :)title
The title should match the title..."
I find vicki_girl's wording clearer in regards to the title section. I'd also add that perhaps we need to clarify that Title Case be used in all English language books, since apparently the US, UK and AU use differing standards?
I think all of it is excellent work - thanks for taking this on Cait! :)
Here is an example of two different transliterations for the same book...English title = The Door into Summer
Russian title w/ tranliteration = Дверь в лето [Dverʹ v leto]
Japanese title w/ transliteration = 夏への扉 [Natsu e no tobira]
Thanks vicki for all that clarification on transliterations.Yes, transliterations are per language per book and only for non-roman letter languages such as Russian, Thai, Persian, Arabic, Japanese, etc.
The new title description is much more clear. Thanks guys.
I like this so far.Under subtitles:
The phrase "A Novel Of {Something}" or "A {Something} Novel" should be considered a series indicator rather than a subtitle and should therefore be moved into the series field should use the series formatting shown below.
Except when it really isn't a series. Sometimes "A Novel Of {Something}" just seems to be a way to get a genre on to the front cover.
Birdsong: A Novel of Love and War
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62...
Perhaps he thought people would assume it was a history of The Supremes.
I have a problem with the capitalisation paragraph. First of all, I also find vicki_girl's clearer. However, I would change the different language part since it does not cover all possibilities. Indeed, there are a lot of languages using sentence cap. But then there is German, which is a little harder to grasp. Our titles actually use sentence cap. However, German uses caps for all proper nouns and on various other occations (which you can find here: http://german.about.com/library/weekl...). So neither the sentence cap nor the English cap policy applies.Therefore, I'd like to add something along the lines of: For titles in languages other than English, please use the language's title conventions. In many cases, the policy is sentence capitalization. However, some languages use caps more extensively. In this case, please add the title according to the spelling and grammer rules of the language in question. If you are not familliar with said language, do not just change the title according to the GR standard policy! If you have specific questions, you can seek for help in the Librarian Group.
I like Ellie's suggestion as well. Sentence case does include capitalizing proper nouns (which I forgot to mention). However, I like Ellie's wording better.
vicki_girl wrote: "I like Ellie's suggestion as well. Sentence case does include capitalizing proper nouns (which I forgot to mention). However, I like Ellie's wording better."Only in some languages, though, which is why her wording is good. There are a number of languages that only capitalize specific proper nouns (e.g. weekdays are not, etc).
Okay, I've rolled in vicki_girl's and Ellie's suggested changes, although I've shortened the capitalization a bit trying to avoid a wall of text.
Mod
It is too likely to encourage edit wars on books with titles like CRASH! or the like.
I think the example of books that use specific capitalization like ViVa or AnOther.I almost think that it should be:
Statement
Example
Next Statement
Next Example
The title should match the title shown on the cover of the book, if that information is available. If a title includes accented characters, apostrophes, quotation marks, or punctuation, include these in the title. Do not remove definite or indefinite articles such as "the" from the beginning of titles; this is handled by the sort title, which is a different field (see below). Double-check the spelling!
Example:
The Lord of the Rings
Guards! Guards!
Not:
Lord of the Rings
Guards Guards
The title should be capitalized according to standard title capitalization for the language of the edition. Preferred title capitalization in English is the use of capital letters for the principal words. Only use sentence capitalization, all uppercase, all lowercase, or other capitalization if the book specifies it. Note that many titles appear to be in all uppercase or lowercase letters on the cover but are not otherwise capitalized this way, and that therefore the cover is used for the words of the title but not necessarily the capitalization.
Examples of titles:
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
Le deuxième sexe
Something like that. This way the see examples right after they read the statement and don't get confused as to which examples refer to which statements.
I'm currently trying to find a good example for German capitalization but all the titles I have only include proper nouns and the little filling words which equals English cap policy. There has to be some title including an adjective...Edit: Well, finally: 'Die alltägliche Physik des Unglücks' or 'Der lange Ritt nach Hause' or 'Der Sommer der silbernen Stute' (The last two are horse books, but it is really really difficult to find good examples. Just take the one that looks most peculiar to you)
I think something needs to be added about titles that have the series name in it, such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer: No Future for You.See: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
I'm not 100% sure what is correct yet, but once rivka chimes in it should be added. It's odd because it seems like it would be treated the same as ": A xxx novel", but I'm not sure.
Krystal109 wrote: "I think something needs to be added about titles that have the series name in it, such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer: No Future for You."That would be covered under this, wouldn't it?
"An exception to this is when the series name is the primary or only title. In this case, the title may be formatted with series name and number as the title (the number may be written out to match the title as shown on the edition) and any additional title text as the subtitle."
Lol. Totally missed that and there is an example that matches it.I still think the whole thing would be a lot more clear and rules wouldn't be lost in a paragraph of text if every statement had an example to follow it. I must be dumb, but I find it is a lot more clear if someone tells me ONE THING ONLY and then shows me an example.
For example:
The title should match the title shown on the cover of the book, if that information is available...
Example:
The Lord of the Rings
Guards! Guards!
Not:
Lord of the Rings
Guards Guards
The title should be capitalized according to standard title capitalization for the language of the edition. Preferred title capitalization in English is the use of capital letters for the principal words. Only use sentence capitalization, all uppercase, all lowercase, or other capitalization if the book specifies it....
Examples:
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
ViVa
Le deuxième sexe
Der Sommer der silbernen Stute
subtitle
The subtitle should also match the cover of the book. Bear in mind that books are sometimes republished with different subtitles....
Examples of subtitles:
Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl
Ghosts of Gettysburg: Spirits, Apparitions and Haunted Places of the Battlefield
Alice und das Land im Nadelöhr. Die weiteren Abenteuer von Alice im Wunderland
Birdsong: A Novel of Love and War
The phrase "A Novel" may or may not be considered a subtitle....
Not:
Among the Living: A PsyCop Novel
The rest of the stuff is really clear, I just missed that because I didn't think to look under series... which was my fault.
I agree, putting examples, in the proper place, is pretty vital to clarity.
Mel wrote: "I agree, putting examples, in the proper place, is pretty vital to clarity."+1 - I think that would help a lot!
Coming late to the party, but as a French editor by trade, I feel I should point out that, following French rules (notably the standard Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'imprimerie nationale used in France and the Office québécois de la langue française), the particular example given should be Le Deuxième Sexe. For what it’s worth, the general rule is only capitalize the first letter, unless the title begins with a definite article (le, la, les) and is not a complete sentence. For example:
Proust, À la recherche du temps perdu
Ionesco, Le roi se meurt (complete sentence)
Otherwise, you capitalize the first noun and any adjectives/adverbs that come before the first noun:
Les Liaisons dangereuses
Le Deuxième Sexe
Les Plus Belles Années de ma vie
You also capitalize symmetrical oppositions:
La Belle et la Bête
Le Rouge et le Noir
Really, French rules and exceptions are exhausting. Of course, particular editions might vary as not all publishers respect these rules, and some use all lowercase or all uppercase throughout the entire title.
All this to say I would use another example, such as the Proust, that follows the no caps rule. Or, to avoid the ambiguity altogether, use Italian as a romance language example (such as Eco’s Il nome della rosa) as I know Italian is consistent with the first caps rule (I can’t speak to Spanish but I believe it is as well).
Sylvie wrote: "Coming late to the party, but as a French editor by trade, I feel I should point out that, following French rules (notably the standard Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'imprimerie nat..."I did not know this! I will use more caution in capitalizing French language editions from now on. Thank you! :)
If there's a less ambiguous example, it would definitely be better -- I will edit to use the Proust, for future readers. (I will, though, point out that I pulled that example from book in hand: my Folio essais edition from Gallimard in fact uses Le deuxième sexe on the title page.)
Cait wrote: "Sylvie wrote: "Coming late to the party, but as a French editor by trade, I feel I should point out that, following French rules (notably the standard Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l..."Yes, publishers are inconsistent to say the least. On the Folio site itself, the book is listed as "Le Deuxième sexe" right next to the cover saying "Le deuxième sexe"; it's crazy-making.
The Beauvoir example is particularly problematic because some publishers might consider it an essay, in which case, like songs or poems, one could argue for just the first letter being capped.
I generally don't correct an existing title where only the first letter is capped if it matches the cover of that edition.
I have a question. Are we supposed to write the actually series name in the titel or the translation of it, if the book is a translation? Because if I klick on the book it shows always the actually series name, but in the bookshelf it shows what is written under "title".
Mod
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title
The title field is used for the title of the book and for the subtitle if the book has one. Other information, such as binding, edition number, or language, should be moved out of the title field into fields specific to that information. For now, retain series information in the title as well.
title
The title should match the title shown on the cover of the book, if that information is available. If a title includes accented characters, apostrophes, quotation marks, or punctuation, include these in the title. Do not remove definite or indefinite articles such as "the" from the beginning of titles; this is handled by the sort title, which is a different field (see below). Double-check the spelling!
The title should be capitalized according to standard title capitalization for the language of the edition. Preferred title capitalization in English is the use of capital letters for the principal words. Only use sentence capitalization, all uppercase, all lowercase, or other capitalization if the book specifies it. Note that many titles appear to be in all uppercase or lowercase letters on the cover but are not otherwise capitalized this way, and that therefore the cover is used for the words of the title but not necessarily the capitalization.
subtitle
The subtitle should also match the cover of the book. Bear in mind that books are sometimes republished with different subtitles, so a subtitle for one edition should not be assumed to be present on all editions. When a book has a subtitle, the subtitle should separated from the main title by a language-appropriate separator (in English or if the separator is unknown, use a colon) and a single space. The phrase "A Novel" may or may not be considered a subtitle; the cover of the edition should be the guide. The phrase "A Novel Of {Something}" or "A {Something} Novel", where {something} is the book's series, should be considered a series indicator rather than a subtitle, and so it should not be present in the title field except as part of the series (see below for series).
transliteration
If a title is given in non-roman characters (kanji, Cyrillic script, etc.) and a transliteration in roman characters is available, the transliteration can be placed in square brackets after the title and any subtitle; this is optional. Do not provide a translation in the title field.
series
Series should always be created separately. (See series manual page for more information.) Currently, the series display is not complete across the website, and therefore series information may be repeated in the title field; this is optional.
Place the series information in parentheses after the title and any subtitle or transliteration. If the book is numbered in the series, place the number after the series name with the # symbol in front of it. (Use the same conventions for series numbering in titles as is used in the series object.) Previous conventions used a comma after the series name and before the number; this is also acceptable. If formatted in this fashion, the parenthetical part of the title will be replaced by the actual series object's name and number on the book page as a link to the series.
An exception to this is when the series name is the primary or only title. In this case, the title may be formatted with series name and number as the title (the number may be written out to match the title as shown on the edition) and any additional title text as the subtitle.
omnibus/boxed sets
At times multiple books may be released as an omnibus (multiple books reprinted in one book) or a boxed set. If multiple books have been reprinted together which are not part of a series and the edition does not have its own title, all of the included titles should be listed in the title field. When titles are listed, the preferred separator is a space, a forward slash, and another space; other acceptable separators are commas and ampersands. If the edition has a separate title, the list of included titles may be treated as a subtitle or it may be omitted (if it is omitted, this information should be listed in the book description field). (In addition, "Omnibus" or "Boxed Set" may be added to the 'edition' field.)