Into the Forest discussion

So over on the Challenge suggestion thread, Leah asked if Alice in Wonderland would be considered a fairy tale. She pointed out that academics are at odds - in other words, some yes and some say no.

So is Alice in Wonderland a fairy tale? Are any other classic literature (say like The Hobbit) fairy tales and not just classics? Or are such works just influenced by fairy tales or folklore?

Didn't Carroll himself say it was a fairy tale in one of his letters?

I personally vote for "opium dream." (Just kidding.)

I would lean more towards it not being a fairy tale - mostly because of the lack of internal logic and absence of a real plot. Alice does have traces of a plot, but it's so twisted and convoluted, it's hard to follow. Fairy tales are generally more straightforward. Plus, I seem to recall there being a fair amount of satire in the book, which is atypical for fairy tales.

If you were to say that Alice in Wonderland is a fairy tale, then wouldn't something like Gulliver's Travels be one too?

Back when I was at university - enrolled in a course about fairy tales, folklore and myths - I read (I think it was by Heidi @ Sur La Lune) that because Alice isn't rooted in oral tradition it cannot be considered a fairy tale.

Has anyone read The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition? I completely forgot about it until this discussion. I want to read that as well as something with an opposing viewpoint (evidence to support Alice as a fairy tale).

You know Melanti, it's funny that you mentioned Gulliver. Andrew Lang included part of Gulliver - the Lillput part - in one of his fairy tale books.

I had never thought of Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass as being fairy tales. The stories are too long, in my mind.

Chris wrote: "You know Melanti, it's funny that you mentioned Gulliver. Andrew Lang included part of Gulliver - the Lillput part - in one of his fairy tale books."

Really? I had no idea. I was just trying to think of a book that was similar structurally and thematically to Alice in Wonderland.

I should try out Lang one of these days. After Anderson. And after Calvino. And after Arabian Nights.

I guess it all comes down to how you define "fairy tale." Many people think of them as strictly oral tales. Thompson (of the AT Index) defines Märchen as "a tale of some length involving a succession of motifs or episodes. It moves in an unreal world without definite locality or definite creatures and is filled with the marvelous. In this never-never land, humble heroes kill adversaries, succeed to kingdoms and marry princesses."

If you go by the "oral tradition" criteria, Alice might be a fairy tale in a hundred years or so. But it does more or less fit Thompson's definition.

Leah wrote: "Back when I was at university - enrolled in a course about fairy tales, folklore and myths - I read (I think it was by Heidi @ Sur La Lune) that because Alice isn't rooted in oral tradition it cann..."


That makes sense to me, although I agree with Melanti that it might be considered a fairy tale one hundred years from now.

BTW I’d LOVE to read 1001 Nights as a group read!

Should I consider that a Nomination Jalilah? Do you have a particular edition in mind?

Chris wrote: "Should I consider that a Nomination Jalilah? Do you have a particular edition in mind?"

I read it years ago in German! I am not German, but lived there for 15 years in the 80s and early 90s.
I am not familiar with the English versions. What I find important is that the version is as unedited as possible, leaving all the original stories not just the well known ones like Aladdin and Ali Baba. Like the Canterbury tales, the original 1001 nights is not just for children and has some stories that would be considered rather racy. The Italian director Pier Paolo Pasolini did a version with those stories in the 70s called "Il fiore delle mille e una note" that won many awards. There are many great tales, some appropriate for children others not, and some that could be considered Science fiction which is amazing considering these tales were written in the middle ages.
I remember there were 10 volumes so it is a series of stories you need time to read ,not reading them all at once. I remember there were a few boring ones as well that I skipped.

Isn't it around 3000 pages, unabridged?

A bit much for a group read, I think. That's more like a year-long project.

Melanti wrote: "Isn't it around 3000 pages, unabridged?

A bit much for a group read, I think. That's more like a year-long project."

I agree. Maybe we could just select some tales to read, however I'd like to be able the choose between all of them, not just the usual ones.

bump!

I would like to read some of the stories.

We're reading the Haddaway translation (which only has a portion of the stories) as a buddy read in this thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

But feel free to join in with whatever translation you can get your hands on!

The Arabian Nights

Great! Thanks.

Mawgojzeta wrote: "I would like to read some of the stories."

Mawgojzeta, if you would like to read the Arabian Nights, our buddy read is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
You can join anytime and read whatever stories you like, but each months group of tales are meant to go together.
It would be great to have you join!

A friend mentioned reading the full and unexpurgated text online. Don't know how the formatting is, of course.

RE: Alice in Wonderland

Diane posted this message over in General folder Alice in Wonderland thread, "The Original Alice In Wonderland Manuscript, Handwritten & Illustrated By Lewis Carroll (1864) is available at the following link: http://www.openculture.com/2014/01/or..."

The above is a blog post linking to the manuscript. The manuscript is actually posted at http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/ttp/al...

I have The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition in my home library. It's a must for any Alice fans. The scope of the research is breathtaking, and overall it makes for fascinating and often amusing reading. It made me see Alice with new eyes.

(Holy crap - I just checked, and the Kindle version of The Annotated Alice is $20! Sheesh. You can get a used paperback for about $5 plus $4 shipping. I was lucky enough to find my copy in a used bookstore.)

Tadiana wrote: "I have The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition in my home library. It's a must for any Alice fans. The scope of the research is breathtaking, and overall it makes for fascinating ..."

Thank you for the feedback on that one, Tadiana. I moved it up in my TBR list.

Regarding Alice in Wonderland/Alice through the Looking Glass, I definitely agree with everyone who said it is NOT a fairy Tale, however it definitely has something Fairytale like about it.
How would you describe it? What category would you put them in?

I'd call it fantasy. Wikipedia says it's in the "literary nonsense" genre. :D

fairy tale influenced

I tend to agree it is Fairy Tale influenced, although I can see the Surrealist influences as well as political satire.