Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

Nameless wrote: "you have stolen that book, and modified for you own personal use. You broke the law, and did it without the express permission of the author! All material when published is copyright protected! YOU DO NOT OWN THAT E-BOOK! You are only being allowed to read it for your own personal use"


I PAID for a book, I read it on my preferred device. Not sure how that is theft? I do not pirate or distribute, I READ the PURCHASED book for my enjoyment.

Again, please state the name of your book so I don't purchase it and inflame you further by a/ giving you money and b/ reading your work.

Nameless wrote: "Who is getting angry? I'm just posting my views. Your the one that is interpreting my post as angry? I'm just debating the issue on DRM's. And people have taken my post out of context. It just boggles my mind the logic that is being used for stealing an authors work? They are the one's that are angry. Not me..."

Re-read your post. Words in capital letters is shouting. As are exclamation marks.

Nameless wrote: "Okay! If you go to the movies. You buy a ticket, and perhaps soda, popcorn, candy to eat while watching the movie. Movie is over, and you want to watch the movie again, you have to buy another ticket. When you go home you can't take the movie with you to watch on tv. How much money did you spend for going to the theater?

Well with an ebook, you know when you go to Amazon that any ebook they have is only for Kindles? So why would you go there in the 1st place? Then order a book for an ereader you own that doesn't support Kindles?"

You're comparing oranges and apples here. If we want to walk that road, then buying a book is more like buying a DVD, not like going to the movies. (Which is why I don't go to the movies, and only buy DVDs later, but that's another story.)

Amazon itself isn't the problem. Whether Kindle, Kobo or whatever else, it's the principle behind DRM I don't like. Again: if we want to stop piracy, then we have to find ways that annoy the pirates, NOT the honest buyers.

Martyn -- But do these royalties amount to the same the author would get if every reader, instead of borrowing, were to buy an actual copy? Wouldn't the author earn more? (I don't know the rate, and I bet it's different depending on the countries anyway.)

Martyn V. wrote: "Yzabel wrote: "If I pay a ludicrous sum for an ebook (some sell for almost the same price as a paper copy), I want to "own" it in the way I mentioned above. And if I can't, well, why should I bothe..."

Sadly, this isn't the case in the US. The author doesn't get a royalty payment each time the book is checked out, only for the initial purchase.

Solution: Amazon has a Kindle app for that. If you like a book on Amazon, but don't own a Kindle, download the app, buy the book.

Funny how copying DVD as long as it is for your personal use (safe copy or to use on portable devices etc.) is permitted by law. So why wouldn't an Ebook be the same?

First, I want to state that I don't have a problem with DMR because I only read ebooks on my Ipad, which reads any format with apps. If something would happen to the reader and I would lose the books, I have to say that if I haven't read it and I can't have it back because of DMR, well I won't buy it again. There are too many good books out there to take another risk with the same one.

If I read it, making it disappear from my Ipad will only help me forget about it faster so I will not be able to recommend it to my friends or relatives. Yet again, there is no way I will buy a book twice unless I absolutely have to have it on paperback.

So how does DMR help the author when it only causes problems to the legitimate buyers and not the hackers?

That coupled with Smashwords not adding DMR, why should I discriminate people using Amazon while my work isn't protected elsewhere anyway? I can already hear you say, "Well then, don't publish on Smashwords". Then I will reply, why discriminate people who DON'T use Amazon? Aren't they allowed to read good books too?

Yzabel wrote: "Martyn -- But do these royalties amount to the same the author would get if every reader, instead of borrowing, were to buy an actual copy? Wouldn't the author earn more? (I don't know the rate, and I bet it's different depending on the countries anyway.) "

Actually, I have no idea, but I do know that books in KDP select can be borrowed by Amazon Prime members. Authors with books in that program get money every time their book is borrowed.

From what I gathered, public libraries work with a similar system. How much the fee per book is I don't know.

G.G. wrote: "So how does DMR help the author when it only causes problems to the legitimate buyers and not the hackers?"

It doesn't, but some authors are ignorant of how it works and mistakenly believe that if their e-book has DRM then it must be piracy safe. Pirates can strip DRM faster than street kids can take the wheels off a porsche... lol

As stated, all DRM does is annoy legitimate purchasers and even then it only takes moments to remove DRM and upload to your reading device of choice.

DRM is not the solution, we need to look at other ways to make books more readily available, perhaps like the Amazon Prime service where you pay a set fee and borrow your books. Oyster is another service springing up where you pay a set fee to read/borrow books. There are other services being proposed where you pay based on the amount of a book you read. So if you only read 20% and DNF you might not pay anything or only a small token amount.

Another issue is the pricing on some e-books. The big players have often priced the e-book the same as a paperback. A price around $6-8 dollars encourages piracy as people are resistant to paying that amount for an e-book. I believe *most* pirated books are those of the large publishers.

I suspect Nameless has little to no sales which is why they are complaining that piracy must be the root cause ;)

I had my first two novels processed into e-books by a conversion service whose clients include at least one bestselling author, which I mention to establish their level of knowledge and credibility, as well as their vested interest in providing good advice to their customers. They suggested I not use DRM because of the problems it causes and because it can be easily stripped, as many others on this thread have mentioned. I haven’t regretted it—but then, I probably wouldn’t know if my books were being pirated anyway. :)

Ken wrote: "Solution: Amazon has a Kindle app for that. If you like a book on Amazon, but don't own a Kindle, download the app, buy the book."

Martyn V. wrote: "I do know that books in KDP select can be borrowed by Amazon Prime members. Authors with books in that program get money every time their book is borrowed."

Speaking of this: it only works when you actually have a Kindle, not when you use Kindle for PC, or the app on a phone. At least, if there's a way, please, by all means, tell me about it, I'd definitely be interested.

A.W. wrote: "Another issue is the pricing on some e-books. The big players have often priced the e-book the same as a paperback. A price around $6-8 dollars encourages piracy as people are resistant to paying that amount for an e-book. I believe *most* pirated books are those of the large publishers."

Stephen King's latest novel... *coughs coughs*

G.G. wrote: "Funny how copying DVD as long as it is for your personal use (safe copy or to use on portable devices etc.) is permitted by law. So why wouldn't an Ebook be the same?

First, I want to state that ..."

It has been my experience that if you buy a movie as a download, Amazon holds it in the cloud for you, so if you have to get a new ereader or computer Amazon recognizes your account and you can download it again for free. I once downloaded a movie from Amazon and put it on DVD; when I had to reformat my computer (take it back to original specs and erase everything), the DVD would no longer play on the computer, but I could download the movie. I assume it works that way for an ebook, too.

It's always fascinating that those who complain about piracy the most probably don't have any book sales. I note Nameless isn't even an author account, so I wonder if they even have a book published?

There is a quote that for indie authors piracy is not the problem - the issue is obscurity.

I did read a great article last year about paperbacks being scanned and turned into e-books. I'm not sure if they were pirated copies or legitimate (can't remember now) but I remember people sent in screenshots of their e-books. One had a big coffee ring on a page. Another had a library stamp and hand written notes in the margins :)

A.W. wrote: "It's always fascinating that those who complain about piracy the most probably don't have any book sales. I note Nameless isn't even an author account, so I wonder if they even have a book publishe..."

I agree that obscurity is the problem with independents. I had some small success as a writer of short Science Fiction stories some years ago, but now I publish as an independent. I retained the rights to those stories so I republished in a couple of ebook collections and even added some new ones, along with a novel. Instant success as an indie because of my prior (modest) success in the magazines? Absolutely not. Since I just started, I'm in the same boat as even the most obscure of the indies; all I can do is wait for feedback, and hope it will generate some success. On the other hand, self-publishing has cost me absolutely nothing except the buying of a couple of copies each of my own books to add to my shelves. Any sales at all would be gravy.

A.W. wrote: "There is a quote that for indie authors piracy is not the problem - the issue is obscurity."

Indeed. Which is why I don't see harm in getting pirated, not matter what the naysayers might think. People who download pirated e-books do not recognise the rights of authors to get paid for creating what they are reading. It's not like they would suddenly develop a conscience and decide that I ought to get paid for my efforts.

And while I'd appreciate a 'lock' that would prevent piracy while giving paying customers full access, DRM does the opposite so it's clearly not something you want to put on your e-books.

On the other hand, I think most readers understand that authors should get compensated for providing them with new stories. I'd rather trust my readers to pay for my books and give them unlimited access to my books, than distrust them and annoy them with ineffective protection that won't prevent my work from getting pirated anyway.

I think my novels are reasonably priced. And if people want to read my books but cannot spare the expense, I'm known for giving my books away. Because I'd rather be read than paid. And if these readers want to repay my kindness with an honest review, I'd consider that more than fair compensation.

Nameless wrote: "I do not want the aggravation of being indentified, and my stories deliberately hacked/pirated. Especially now."

I understand. Your attitude in this thread and your atrocious grammar are not exactly glowing endorsements for anything you might have published.

Nameless wrote: "As for obscurity? I am known to my esoteric readers. And I consider it like a 'private club'. I only let in people who I choose to... "

...I was looking for an appropriate response to that, but I think there's none. Please excuse me while I proceed to go introduce my head to my desk.

Somewhere, a lonely bridge is calling for its troll...

Nameless wrote: "Once again you are wrong! You do not know what I have published. I am not endorsing anything? So it does not matter what my grammar is..."

You're endorsing DRM.

A.W. wrote: "It's always fascinating that those who complain about piracy the most probably don't have any book sales. I note Nameless isn't even an author account, so I wonder if they even have a book publishe..."

I love the comment you made A.W. "There is a quote that for indie authors piracy is not the problem - the issue is obscurity."
What a lively discussion this is!

Back to the OP, I opted against DRM because I remember how happy I was when iTunes dropped it from music. The cloud argument works if you are only selling on Amazon, but for owners of Windows Phones, Kindle is the only major eReader currently available, so opting for Nook or Kobo DRM cuts out Windows Phone users.

When I started posting my revised backlist a few years ago, I opted for DRM and now regret it. Amazon and B&N won't let you drop it, even if you reload the book. Many people like to buy a book and convert it (such as with Calibre) to use on other devices. I now have 30 books posted, most DRM-free. Plus my earlier books are DRM-free on Smashwords and All Romance ebooks. It's just friendlier to the readers who actually buy books, and some won't buy if there's DRM.

Jody, thank you for starting this thread.

I'm embarrassed to admit this since I work in IT as my day job, but I didn't realize that DRM inhibited my few purchasers from moving the novel from device to device. That is so not the intent.

And I agree with those who have lamented that a limitation to e-books is the inability to 'share' with friends. I discovered some of my favorite authors when someone leant me a novel I might no have read otherwise. So it's good news the cloud is helping with that.

Rightly or wrongly, if it is that easy to strip DRM, then it isn't adding value. It sounds as though it is making it easy for my e-book distributors to attempt to tie the product to their proprietary devices. As much as I love my distributors, I'm not committed to helping them with that.

To the extent I can strip DRM from my current listings I will. I have new one coming out soon and it will go DRM free.

As for pirates, I'll worry about them if I ever get to the point of having Steven King's sales.

*Sigh* I have just discovered my novel on a website that boasts pirated ebooks. My novel has never been DRM-encypted, was available via free giveaways, and was offered at a special discount price ( 99 cents) for quite awhile.
And yet, people still want to steal it.
Unlike the awesome Terry Pratchett, I don't feel proud to have had my work pirated. I feel like an artist who has been taken advantage of :/
Pirates are evil. I hope their ships sink.

I am afraid that the pirates are not interested in the price they took getting your bounty(those galleons cost a lot of money to maintain and cutlasses aren't cheap) but only in how many copies they are likely to sell or offer for free download on a malware/ad filled site.

I may yet opt for Amazon DRM, but my book has the best protection possible, it is obscure literary fiction that to a pirate would be all skull and no crossbones.

Jody wrote: "I've read his article but I completely disagree about pirated copies "helping" - everyone I know who's had their work illegally file-shared, it's just resulted in less sales. Those are people downl..."

I completely agree with that, Jody. Theft is theft and can serve no good purpose for any author.

I have also found books of mine on pirate sites. I ferreted out an email address, but when I attempted to send a "take down" notice, my email bounced three times and clearly it won't be received. I don't think there is much to be done about these thieves. It is frustrating.

Mercia wrote: "I am afraid that the pirates are not interested in the price they took getting your bounty(those galleons cost a lot of money to maintain and cutlasses aren't cheap) but only in how many copies the..."

Just wanted to say your post had style. I liked "all skull and no crossbones." I am descended from an actual pirate (argh) and like to think that is my karmic protection, since I hope to emerge from obscurity.

Janet wrote: "I have also found books of mine on pirate sites. I ferreted out an email address, but when I attempted to send a "take down" notice, my email bounced three times and clearly it won't be received. I..."

I'd LOVE to set up a reward fund to put a price on the head of every one of these slimeballs. The problem is making sure the hit man has actually bagged a REAL pirate and not some poor citizen off the streets. And there might be a small problem with the international authorities (some of them frown on such things).

Yzabel wrote: "Nameless wrote: "You go on Amazon or some other store and you pay for a story/book. You do not own that story/book! You are just being allowed to read it! "

To be honest, THIS is the problem I hav..."

DRM is infuriating. I have the amazon app only because of the many free eBooks and is it TOO much to ask that I can import it into my favourite e-reading app iBooks. Apparently for the money-grabbing, KPD select (demanding exclusivity), power hungry Amazon it is.

Louise wrote: "Yzabel wrote: "Nameless wrote: "You go on Amazon or some other store and you pay for a story/book. You do not own that story/book! You are just being allowed to read it! "

To be honest, THIS is th..."

Kindle Select has got nothing to do with DRM. On Amazon choosing yes or no to DRM is an unchangeable decision, whereas you can move in and out of Select.

Mercia wrote: "Louise wrote: "Yzabel wrote: "Nameless wrote: "You go on Amazon or some other store and you pay for a story/book. You do not own that story/book! You are just being allowed to read it! "

To be hon..."

Select is just another tool that many authors use that Amazon uses to demand exclusivity from any other retailer. It just shows how power-hungry Amazon is

That's a good story. In the (near) future Amazon and other law abiding corporations have hit men (and women) to eliminate people who don't obey their ever changing privacy and property protection rules.
Considering that automation is destroying opportunities to get jobs, this is a good future job.
How do you train for that? Mercenary work in Afghanistan or what else? Can you discount that from taxes?
The caveat is that they would eliminate customers. Although that is not too different from having 90% of the economic growth go to the 1%.

I enabled DRM on my first ebook too, Shannon, and wish I hadn't.

I wondered whether it's ok to unpublish an ebook and republish it without DRM. I read somewhere that republishing an ebook is 'a road to hell' because the first version doesn't disappear. Does anyone know anything about this, or had any experience republishing an ebook on Amazon?

Thanks.

Nope. Don't enable it on mine. The people it inconveniences most are legitimate customers/readers.

I'm not pro-piracy at all, but DRM is just a flawed response to the problem and there's been quite a large backlash against it.

DRM is more like the shrink wrap and sealing stickers on a DVD than an ironclad lock: just a small inconvenience, not a huge apocalyptic disaster. Does that mean that film companies will stop selling their DVD's in shrink wrap with stickers across the top (and sometimes the bottom or sides) because legitimate customers find it annoying? No. Not really. The same with how drug stores in my local area have started locking up deodorant in display cases or how certain OTC medications are now kept behind the counter to hinder crooks. Sure, it inconveniences average, law-abiding consumers too, but that's just life.

I put DRM on my first book because I believed that it provided an extra measure of protection, but it's not my only means of protecting my work against individuals who would steal it to make a quick buck without paying me my well-deserved dues. The best measure of protection is to have a formal copyright on your work, which allows you to actually take malicious media pirates (ie., those pirating for profit) to court and have a judge actually take the case seriously. The old "Send a copy of the manuscript to your self in the mail" trick doesn't count for diddly in a court of law, as it turns out.

Now, I'm sorry if having DRM on my book causes some readers inconvenience, but apparently there are workarounds that legitimate customers can use to still share across devices as they wish. I don't mind if people use those workarounds for normal, everyday cross-device reading and interpersonal sharing...it's just the people who want to make an actual profit that I'm against.

I mean, I worked my butt off writing, revising, editing, and designing the cover for my book. That's hundreds of man-hours on one project, and I have no alternate means of generating income currently. People making money off of all of my hard work while I get diddly? As an angry clown once said, "Homie don't play dat." Even if I never find the guy because he's in another country on another continent, at least knowing that stripping the DRM from my book just stole a few seconds off of is life is still satisfying.

I can't get too mad at the people who strip the DRM and distribute free or download free pirated copies, though. As said above, they're more than likely the folks who wouldn't have actually spent any cash on my book anyway, so it's not a huge loss. Annoying, but, as I said above, that's life. Especially when you're in the entertainment industry. ;P

I prefer Amazon DRM that others. Actually there is a lot of DRM but no standard. Maybe Prot-On DRM is standard DRM in some countries.

http://www.prot-on.com

i never bothered with drm. i used to hack back in the day so cracking security features were part of the challenge. though i crack software to test full features before buying (demos never fully show everything) i know *i* can't be trusted with drm so why bother slapping it on my works? it'll just annoy legit buyers anyway and crackers like me will find a way to break open stuff for a test drive.
not everyone buys stuff they like after cracking it open and are just lazy bastards looking for free stuff. so it's a gamble. i'm prolly delusional thinking anyone wants to pirate my works in the first place (having some kind of literary merit ooh) so i doubt that will happen.

DRM - No.

Unless distributors make it mandatory, DRM - No.

DRM makes the official, purchased version of your book worth LESS than the free pirated version.

The ONLY thing DRM achieves, the one and only thing, is to inconvenience your readers. It doesn't stop pirates at all.

If there is DRM on my books, I did not put it there.