Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion

Linnea wrote: "First, for those of you who've not read Jacqueline Lichtenberg's DUSHAU or DREAMSPY...and you like PNR/SFR, please do so! I cannot recommend these books enough. JL is a craft-mistress of FICTION. I..."

I work in a library on the Circulation desk and so have very little to say about what area paperbacks are cataloged in. I have seen Urban Fantasy in the mystre section, the Sci-fi section and the Romance section. I have recommended Accidental Goddess in a book list of Paranormal books on the basics that it was different from run of the mill romance. I have often though that if SFR was in the romance section the change of them going out more would be increased. It's hard to change peoples perspectives but as I am the one in the library who knows the most about paranormal etc I find myself recommending books and always tell people about your books. I don't think we have anything else in the SFR area.

Jacqueline--your name is familiar, but I checked to see if I'd read any of your books--sorry to say--not since your Dreamspy book. Do you attend cons,(scifi/fantasy especially) and if so, which ones? I'm betting I've sat through some that you've chaired. :o)

I once told Anne MacCaffrey she was tied for #2 in my all time fav's list with Robert Heinlein. When she asked who was #1 and I told her Andre Norton, she said, (direct quote here) "I'm perfectly happy being #2 to Andre."

I tend to be a fairly nondiscriminating reader--except for those horrible Barbra Cartlands and her ilk. Sorry, but just about the only thing that changes in those is the names of the hero/heroine and the locations. And even with those 2 things, there is a LOT of overlap.

I do, however, love Georgette Heyer. (For those who haven't read her, she specialized in slightly humourous, historical romances.) She died many, many, many years ago, so there are no more of her books coming, but I have almost her entire collection. I am also a devoted Jane Austen fan.

BTW Jacqueline, I've now got 2 of your books (the DUSHAU #2 and #3) on request from PBS (that's Paper Back swap, not Public Broadcasting, btw) but they didn't have #1. I've always wished that Andre HAD done more with the Star Rangers, so I'm looking forward to reading those books.

Katdragon, An Accidental Goddess has often been called "science fantasy romance" because the female protagonist is a sorceress. On a spacestation. ;-) But see, I built my 'world' such that sorcery was a religion and that what we'd deem magic talents were genetic abilities. So again, what do you do with a mix like that?

In that same way, Jacqueline's Dreamspyposits a natural explanation of vampires as an alien race, NOT a myth.

I'm not sure what to do with SF that incorporates fantasy ideas as sf facts. ;-) And that's another part of the dilemma.

Ann:

I just checked amazon and they have a collector's DUSHAU #1 for $108, (paperback, too) but a slew of used copies for the typical 1 cent (but of course vendors charge S&H to make their profit because of Amazon's cost structure.

Still, you could nab one on Amazon. Log on and search Dushau (it's still a unique word among titles).

Most of the fans of my various series are also Anne McCaffrey fans (especially Dragons), Andre Norton fans, and Heinlein fans (or anti-fans because of his political philosophy).

I go to a lot of cons, often chair panels, and I did a lot of panels at the Heinlein Centennial. I'm usually at WorldCon, but not in Montreal this year. I'll be at Westercon though.

I did contribute a story to Andre Norton's #2 TALES OF THE WITCHWORLD about a Vampire. When I got her invitation to the anthology, on the phone, I told her I wanted to do a vampire, and she said no, can't have a Vampire on Witch World, so I said but you'll LOVE this vampire. She said "try it." I sent her the story. She bought it.)

I scored as a fan with Robert Heinlein with my second novel (my first award winner) UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER. I had dedicated my first novel (HOUSE OF ZEOR) to him, and gave him a copy at WorldCon in Kansas City when he was GoH. That was the year STAR TREK LIVES! was published and I was on my way to California to see Gene Roddenberry again, and hit some TV talk shows. I was hoping for a cover quote from Heinlein, and sent him an ARC of UNTO -- but he had a policy against doing quotes for anyone.

So after he read UNTO, he called me up and asked point blank without preamble where I'd studied medicine. I told him I hadn't. He was utterly amazed I had captured the essence of life from a doctor's perspective AND the patient's perspective in one short novel.

UNTO is mostly about the difference between a Healer and a Doctor, and the soul-wrenching choices the talented must make. I think of it as my Nurse Novel.

Someone here noted that SF may be a dying genre. In a way that might be my greatest triumph because my objective with my Sime~Gen Universe novels is to prove that SF is NOT a genre at all.

So I've set out to have a Sime~Gen novel IN EVERY GENRE, thus proving that SF is not a genre because you can write every genre IN IT. These are not cross-genre structures such as Linnea discussed on
http://magicalmusings.com/?p=3502#com...

The non-SF elements are integral to the SF elements, and identical with them rather than divided. No real-estate problem.

So this passionate doctor-nurse romance could not happen anywhere but in an SF novel where the passionate love changes the course of human history (literally Conquers an All that is much bigger than anything in our contemporary world - bigger than Helen of Troy) -- but does NOT have an HEA. (except that in Sime~Gen, reincarnation is real, so yeah, eventually it does HEA)

The defining test to classify something as SF is, "If you can take out the Science and still have a story, it isn't SF." And the same for Romance. "If you can take out the Romance and still have a story, it isn't a Romance."

UNTO ZEOR, FOREVER passes both those tests. But doesn't HEA in this volume. In someone else's hands, it might have.

Newbie here. I just stumbled across this discussion by following links from The Galaxy Express. (Thanks Heather!)

In answer to the original question, and as a newly sold SFR author, I hate having my stories lumped under the paranormal umbrella. For me, there are two major differences. 1.) magic and 2.) overall tone of the stories.

In SFR there is no magic. Everything has a scientific explanation. And it seems to me that most paranormal has a darker tone than SFR. There are exceptions, of course. I love Yasmine Galenorn's Otherworld series which isn't dark at all.

But the biggie seems to be that even the publishers don't know how to lable us. For instance, Robin Owen's Heart/Celta series has paranormal on the spine, as does Jayne Anne Krentz's Harmony series, and I, personally, wouldn't lable either as paranormal.

So as much as I hate it, until the publishers make up their minds, I think we're stuck.

Katherine

Hey, Linnea, I've never read your books before, but they sound interesting. Is there a particular order they should be read in?

<> Hey new, ;-)

The Dock Five Series are the only ones that need be read in order:
Gabriel's Ghost then Shades of Dark

Those two books are 'three months' apart in 'action' and story.
Hope's Folly is the third book in that setting but can rather stand alone. (It'll be out later this month)

The rest of my books are all stand alones:
The Down Home Zombie Blues is the only one set on this planet (Florida, to be exact.) That one is rather like "Men in Black Meets CSI: Miami." ;-)

You can find a full booklist on my Goodreads page. Linnea Sinclair

Gabriel's won the RITA award, Finders Keepers and Games of Command were both RITA finalists. Just FYI.

Thanks for asking and hope this helps! ~Linnea

Jacqueline I totally agree with you on all levels! After reading this discussion, I am a tad more interested in SFR than I was before. I hardly ever pay attention to genres I guess because I love to read and just read the same thing I am used to reading. I am not a super reader but I do enjoy reading a book I just can't put down! So to me as a reader who doesn't pay attention or read too much into issues, I am being educated on here by those of you who are more educated in the "book world" than I am! Oh and I love PNR because it's a world I relate to. I love it and that's whay it is so hard for me to get into SFR. I am not into aliens and never have been. I enjoy Vamps, weres, faeries, merpeople. I guess I can't brng myself to read outside my "comfort" zone. I will try reading SFR soon enough though! :-)

Heather:

One way "comfort zones" get expanded is browsing through your local public library.

Most have a shelf where they sell books for almost nothing.

Another way is to be stuck somewhere without anything to read -- and become totally bored.

The best mood for expanding your comfort zone is pure, total boredom.

I do a review column for a magazine,
Eventually, my columns are archived here
http://www.simegen.com/reviews/reread...

and I read a lot of stuff I wouldn't otherwise. Sometimes I discover new things that way and fall in love with new genres.

One thing I've noticed in my survey though is that the exact same stories (the same emotional payload) that I have always adored in SF now appears repeatedly in PNR. The "aliens" are simply swapped (sometimes with little re-dressing) into Elves, Werewolves, Magicians, Demons, Angels, ghosts, Vampires.

And that's why I love PNR in all its varieties -- it's just SF with very thin window dressing. Yes, I said SF -- not SFR!!! Anyone ever read the Lensman Series? Now that's Romance. Seen the original THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL (old B&W film; not what recently hit theaters). Or what about the film STARMAN? Those films are PURE SF -- and hot-HOT romance. (took sequels to get to the HEA though; Starman took a TV series to get there)

I think what we're seeing now is a result of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER and all that fanfic (and Potter and his fanfic).

We live in interesting times indeed.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/a...

Is an article about shifts in publishing due to this recession.

In the current SFWA Bulletin is an article on concurrent shifts in convention attendance.

This genre-definition discussion is a sub-set of that larger tsunami of change breaking over us.

Now that the old system of genres (and the power structure behind the method of assigning genres) is dissolving, in the formless plasma of the present, authors finally have a chance to create genre-labels with readers and popularize them.

We may be able to help readers who want it find SFR, if we can find the right semantically loaded label for what we write and love.

This is a little bit off topic, but the SFWA Nebula and Andre Norton awards may be looking into adding new categories.

Anyway, I put out some feelers, and was thrilled when the fabulous (and quite hunky... not that that has anything to do with it but his biceps are on show on his website) Robin Wayne Bailey volunteered to read a copy of Knight's Fork.

Today, Robin very kindly gave me his feedback, and permission to use a brief quote of the best bit.


"the story is entertaining and elegantly written"
~ Robin Wayne Bailey
http://www.robinwaynebailey.net

He thinks Knight's Fork is paranormal romance, when it is a Dorchester Futuristic on a lavish, far off world... which happens to be a space ship for the central third of Knight's Fork.

Best wishes,
Rowena Cherry
Space Snark

I have terrible astigmatism. My eye guy says I cannot tolerate even half a degree of rotation in my lenses. I've always thought of paranormal as that reality that's between 1 and 15 degrees of rotation from the dominant paradigm. Or call it one step away from "normal." Either way, it's normal--only para.

If I had glasses that addressed only my far-sightedness, I'd wear them only if I couldn't lay hands on the ones that fit me. They'd be better than nothing, but I still wouldn't be happy. On the other hand, wearing astigmatism lenses with the wrong rotation would leave me entirely blind. "Speculative fiction" covers a lot of bases. Maybe too many. But then, so does "romance." When you get more specific, you need to be careful that the specific descriptions of the genre fit the particular story. While my copy of Gabriel's Ghost is fairly tattered, I wouldn't have been happy if I'd settled in for a paranormal read and got this. It doesn't fit. It needs a different mental focus.

I have never felt that Fantasy books should be lumped in with SF. It just always felt wrong as they really don't have a lot to do with each other. If the idea is to just classify the books by putting them into their niche that's one thing but if you want to classify them in order to make them more accessible to readers then you need to look at your audience . Do you only want people who read SF to read SFR or do you want to increase your readership by introducing the genre to PNR readers or straight romance readers?

I can see the need to come up with something new but trying to pigeon hole that may not be that easy. Also once a new genre is created getting bookstores and libraries to follow along with this when most already have limited shelving space is another thing.

I hope this next step in smarter labeling is constrictive and that everyone both reader and author profits from it.

To me, some of the most helpful things are shelf-talkers and read-alike lists. And by the latter I don't mean what Amazon does (someone who bought X also bought Y) because people can buy a variety of books online that are unrelated (I remember when my FINDERS KEEPERS first came out and one of the cross-recommendations on Amazon was Building Backyard Decks...)

But something that said "If you read Tanya Huff and Susan Grant you might like books by Linnea Sinclair..." yes, THAT tells me something I can use.

A "Read-Alike" section here might be fun and useful...and circumvent some of these "where does this book belong" problems. IMHO. ;-) ~Linnea

Linnea wrote: A "Read-Alike" section here might be fun and useful...and circumvent some of these "where does this book belong" problems.

Do you mean here as in this group, or here as in GR in general? I'd love something like that on a larger GR wide scale, but I have no idea how it could be implemented.

Plus, if it's more than one individual's opinion, you run into clashes over who people think are "similar" authors. Do you base it on the main character, the world-building, the level of explicit material, the writing style, ....?

I recently started following a book group dedicated to Maria V. Snyder's Study Series. The authors I would compare her too are Jacqueline Carey and Anne Bishop, who write fairly "adult" books. Yet, Maria seems to have this whole audience of younger readers who think of the books as YA books. So our recommendations would surely clash.

Edited to fix italics issue. *g*

Hi. Good topic. I'm pretty new to Goodreads but this one grabbed my attention as it's something I've been thinking about lately, too. (And I apologize - I didn't take time to read this whole thread so I hope I'm not repeating anything.)

Karen - I, for one, appreciate your perspective. You know what you want. That's a good thing. (BTW - don't say geek like it's a dirty word. Be a PROUD GEEK. We certainly are in my family - engineers and IT geeks, that is. teehee. To quote our new favorite tv series - we like "full frontal nerdity!")

The problem of course, is one common to all classification schema. There is, in fact, a whole branch of academic study called taxonomy that studies the science of classification, and of course, every discipline, every social institution, every culture creates and perpetuates their own taxonomies as a natural part of existence. I categorize, therefore I am, so to speak. ;-) I personally think it is thrilling to be part of an evolution in the romance industry. People are branching out all over the place with creativity and inventiveness. It will be some time before the dust settles and everyone agrees on a new taxonomy for the romantic genres.. if ever. We are part of that. This discussion is part of that.

Personally, I started out reading my mother's very proper "wait until you're married" Grace Livingston Hill romances 30 years ago. Then Star Wars came along and bam! Nothing was the same again. Read only sci-fi/fantasy for a long time, then nothing at all as I got wrapped up in kids and such. Now, I'm back to reading and finding that sci-fi by itself isn't enough. I, too, want that intense emotion, that relationship tension, and yes, now that I'm older - the nookie. But I still appreciate sci-fi, along with historical settings, and suspense, and action, and fantasy... etc., etc. I'm a woman. I want it all!

Along comes the hybrid. Linnea Sinclair doesn't know it, but she is an absolute genius. (Well, maybe she does, but she's modest!! grin) She was able to twine together the sci-fi world and the romance so that they are inseperable. Her stories are both genres. I just found Shana Abe's books, as well. She is a fantastic fantasy/romance hybrid writer. Even her historical books feel like fantasy to me. I'm sure there are more out there, and I WILL find them. A true hybrid, to me, is a book that leaves me caring as much about the world and plot that is presented as I do about the love story and the nookie! They should be equal or near to it.

The hybrid, though, is confusing to those of us who like clarity and clear delineation. How do you distinguish? How do you define the word "genre" even? And how do you communicate classification "in the blink of an eye?"

My local library shelves books by genre. A nearby, larger library, shelves alphabetically and uses stickers on the spine to communicate genre. I hated that at first because I didn't know authors, just genre. But now that I have been using Goodreads, I'm getting all kinds of reviews and recommendations, so stickers are just fine. Shelving by genre inevitably shortchanges all the hybrids out there, no matter the genre... and ultimately, the reader who won't know to go beyond and find something new and exciting.

Sorry to be long-winded. I like this discussion, though. In answer to the original question, I think sci-fi romance should be and is it's own sub-genre, but since it's still new and relatively unknown, I am content to have it under the umbrella term paranormal romance...for now. Someone should do a doctoral dissertation on the taxonomy and ontology of hybrid genres. That would be cool. Until then, we just all have to figure out what we like and put in some work to search for it - no matter what you call it!

mlady_rebecca wrote: "Do you mean here as in this group, or here as in GR in general? I'd love something like that on a larger GR wide scale, but I have no idea how it could be implemented.

Plus, if it's more than one individual's opinion, you run into clashes over who people think are "similar" authors. Do you base it on the main character, the world-building, the level of explicit material, the writing style, ....?"

Nothing like coming back to a discussion late.. ;-)

Yes to all of the above: characterization, plot style, voice, whatever. And yes, it would reflect the opinion of the commenter in the same way reviews do. A review isn't a consensus; it's one person's opinion. So yes, recommendations may clash but that's how anything shakes out.

Librarians often use a service called NoveList (I might have the spelling wrong) and one of the columns is a 'read alike' column. ie: If you like X book by Y author, you might like B book by A author. It helps librarians make recommendations. Same with Shelf Talkers. Someone at Borders makes that decision that readers of Sherrilyn Kenyon's Dark Hunter series might also like Christine Feehan's books.

It rather works on the assumption that people who like chocolate ice cream will also like chocolate chocolate chip ice cream. Many will. Some won't. But the "you might also like" is still useful. IMHO and IMHE. ;-) ~Linnea

Karen wrote: "When I look for something to read, I'm a romance junky. When I say romance, it means HEA, hot man (humanoid), strong heroine (humanoid), maybe some fun / thrills along the way, without regard to specific place/time. I want the happy ever after. ... As a consumer of ROMANCE books, I want to find everything thing in the ROMANCE section. The only reason I picked up Dark Lover (PNR) was because I found it in Romance, not in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section. ..."

I love an HEA. Demand it in romance. Actually the genre 'romance' requires an HEA or it's technically not a romance.

Unfortunately, shelving decisions are made on the corporate and marketing level and not by the author. There's no where in my contract where it states where or how my books will be shelved.

Karen wrote:
If you are wondering why people haven't latched onto the Sci-Fi Romance, it's because they are probably browsing the ROMANCE section of their local bookstore.

And they can find science fiction romance on the romance section shelves! Try:
Colby Hodge
Susan Kearney
Susan Grant
Robin D Owens
Rowena Cherry
Linnea Sinclair (except in BN where they shelve me in SF and no, I have no control over that)
Patricia Waddell
Jayne Ann Krentz
Dara Joy
and others...

Karen wrote:
On a second note, I did the reading challenge that required aliens / sci-fi. One of the aspects of futuristic novels or sci-fi is just trying to keep up with the names. For some reason "Jack" won't do....it has to be a futuristic sounding name. Which slows down my reading because I'm trying to figure out how to pronounce it or I'm substituting another name.

Hmm, well the hero of HOPE'S FOLLY is Philip Guthrie. The hero of GABRIEL'S GHOST/SHADES OF DARK is Gabriel "Sully" Sullivan. Susan Grant's books have characters with names like Evie Holloway, Brit Bandar and Jasmine Boswell. Robin D Owens "Heart" series have names like Heather, Holm, Ruis. Colby Hodge has Ruben and Tess. Now, I'm not saying you can't find a book out there with a character with an name like Gr'rohgt'il... but I don't think that's what's usually done in SFR with a main character (hero/heroine).

Romance readers who like historical romances have to deal with Cedric, Padraig (which I'm told is not pronounced Pad-rag but more like Pourrah), Siobhan, Greville, Aurelia, Cyprienne (I'm getting these directly from an issue of RT reviews), Phaedra, Kaliq, Magnus, Aldwin Treynarde, Sunniva and so on.

And for the life of me I can never remember how to pronounce 'reticule' and I've been reading historicals for years.

Karen wrote:
A third note - cover art / font. I realize it's supposed to convey what type of book it is, but really. I'd rather be seen with a man-meat cover than one with planets and stars with two people in leather suits. ... If the thrust of the book is romance, then the cover should market romance...."

I know but we have little say. Marketing and the art department make the decisions. Authors are asked for input. We're just not often listened to. Trust me, the art department thinks they're marketing romance. They also try to market sex even when the book's content is mild. Sometimes the cover art is really great. Sometimes it's waaaaay off the mark.

Years ago Suzanne Brockmann hated one of her cover models so much (and felt he was so NOT the hero!) she offered a roll of free smiley face stickers to her readers with instructions to go to their local bookstore and sticker over the face of the guy on the cover.

IMHO the whole leather-clad thing comes from the popularity of urban fantasy. Cover art follows trends and that's one of them. Also keep in mind that the romance genre overall takes a lot of flack (and derision) because of its man-meat and cleavage covers. It's why "bodice ripper" be fighting words in a bar full of romance authors... ;-) ~Linnea

I'm one of those who read science fiction and fantasy back when I was young enough, I still thought kissing was icky.

I've read all of Linnea's books, (waving) and have Rowena's on my TBB list (waving again). And most of Norton's, all McCaffrey's, Bujold's, etc., etc., etc. I have only read the sime-gen books of Ms. Lichtenberg, but now I know about others, I'm hunting them up too. (I LOVED those S-G books, and I'm not sure I found all of them.)

And yes, Susan Grant (I think I read her first pubbed book in ms form for a contest), Robin Owens (we were fellow "first-book" RITA finalists, and have been friends ever since), Krentz and Waddell--Catherine Asaro could go in this category too. What about Nalini Singh's Psy-Changeling series? It's in a future society, and I think her Changelings may be scientific--or maybe not. I'll have to ask her.

Anyway, I'm always up for a good SFR. And I have a partial of one I'm intending to ship out to my agent when I have more than 5 minutes to myself...

So, y'all keep recommending them! I need more!!

Oh. Um--I don't mind it falling under the Paranormal umbrella. I read it all anyway. Actually, I'd rather read SFR than vampires, so---