The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Proustitute wrote: "Jason wrote: "Does anyone know why the narrator refers to his grandfather's sister as 'great aunt' and yet his grandmother's sisters (Céline and Flora) as only his 'aunts'? By definition, his grand..."

I have a fairly simple explanation. You give your grand-parents different names (granny/grandma) so you know who you're talking about and I assume he's doing the same thing with his great aunts.

Daniel wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "Jason wrote: "Does anyone know why the narrator refers to his grandfather's sister as 'great aunt' and yet his grandmother's sisters (Céline and Flora) as only his 'aunts'? By d..."

I have called mine always "tías" and only at times would I have to say "tía abuela" to clarify to a third party, never directly to the aunts.

Such erudite, interesting, helpful comments. I'd love to contribute, but all I have is a really dumb question: what exactly does 'through' mean, as in 'Through Sunday, 6 January'?

Just wondering. Not that I'm obsessive or anything.

Karen wrote: "Such erudite, interesting, helpful comments. I'd love to contribute, but all I have is a really dumb question: what exactly does 'through' mean, as in 'Through Sunday, 6 January'?

Just wondering. ..."

It means by Sunday 6th you should have read the section until the sentence "Combray, de loin, à dix lieues à la ronde..." (Karen, I think I saw your name in the French reading group).

Thanks, Kal that's what I thought.

Kalliope wrote: "The only diagnoses that can be discussed with comfort are those that were given to Marcel Proust by his doctors.

Well, that is not universally accurate. Personally, I'm not at all uncomfortable speculating about other possible disorders, given the changing nature of society's (and doctors') understanding and knowledge of the human body and brain. But maybe it makes some people uncomfortable - although I don't understand why.

Given how complex/disturbed/unusual/whatever you want to call it Proust seems to have been, from what you've posted here, it seems only natural to wonder a little about his life, his perspective and his mind, and question what was going on. I know a few hypochondriacs, but the behaviour you're describing here is something I've never encountered in regular hypochondria, and sounds quite intriguing to me.

I look forward to reading the biography, and the thread on Proust's life, and I will continue to question and speculate about all I discover, in that thread. Although of course, if the moderators wish to declare such speculation a taboo subject and make an official rule to ban it, then I will respect that, and keep my thoughts in my head.

Gail wrote: "Personally, I'm not at all uncomfortable speculating about other possible disorders, given the changing nature of society's (and doctors') understanding and knowledge of the human body and brain. But maybe it makes some people uncomfortable - although I don't understand why..."

I'm not a moderator for this group, but maybe I can share a member's perspective to help you understand. I know you have a vested interest in the topic of autism as you have said you are diagnosed within that spectrum and so it makes sense you want to discuss it here.

As a member of the Proust group, my expectation is that this particular thread is for discussing the first part of Proust's novel. I don't want to click on this thread and find debates about what constitutes mental health. That is a personal and political topic that I do not feel comfortable discussing here. I don't wish to be too blunt about it, but you asked and so here is one answer.

The moderators have set up other threads for discussing Proust, the man, and maybe that would be a better place for you to discuss the issues you raise.

Oh, that's a great idea, Jim! Yeah, let's talk about the autism stuff in that other thread and keep this one more focused on the book.

Thank you, Jim. I appreciate respectful bluntness. And it makes far more sense to me to be told honestly that people don't want to discuss something than to be told empirically that something is imprudent to think about, as if there is something intrinsically wrong and taboo in wondering certain things.

To be honest, I also didn't want the thread to turn into a great debate as to what constitutes mental health, nor even a discussion about autism. The autistic traits were just the most striking thing that occurred to me when I was reading the book, and so I wanted to express this. To me, it was more interesting than madeleines - I have eaten these when I was in France and didn't like them at all! I guess I didn't expect such a huge backlash, and I found the offence people seemed to take to be rather insulting, as if autism is a terrible thing that their beloved Proust couldn't possibly have had. So then I discussed it more than I had intended.

I won't say any more about it, even in the other thread, because it does seem to be a taboo subject for some, and a boring one for others! The only people who have expressed interest in it were people who messaged me privately, rather than on this discussion.

This is the most ridiculous response I have ever seen to a suggestion of talking about psychoanalysis of the author in a thread made for that. You've got to be kidding me.

Now, now chaps. Let's take a breath. :) I just think that this whole autism/psychoanalysis stuff in here is a bit "off topic". Yes? No-one is particularly getting annoyed or offended, or suggesting it's taboo. Just not best placed in this thread, intending for (I guess) discussing the story, how our reading of it has gone, how we like xzy so far. The book on its own terms, I would offer.

Jason - eh? Who was responding to a suggestion of talking about psychoanalysis? I don't even remember such a suggestion being made. My own post about autism, made ages ago, was in response to my reading of the book, Swann's Way. Naively, perhaps, I thought the thread was about our thoughts and interpretations on the book. As I said, I was astonished at the huge backlash my simple question seemed to ignite, and how it grew into something far bigger than I intended.

Oh, I see what you're saying, Jason. Lol - I think you missed my point, just as I missed yours! To clarify, I was responding to Jim's post, which said more than simply suggest we use another thread (I'd already said in my previous post that I would use the other thread anyway!).

I was thanking him for doing what no one else had done - explaining that, quite simply, people were uncomfortable with personal and political topics. I was also acknowledging his reasons by explaining that I hadn't been expecting all the responses to my initial tentative response to the book, and that these provoked me into further discussion. He's right - the thread shouldn't be about people's views on mental health - so I was explaining why I carried on talking about it, to assure him that it wasn't from a vested interest in hi-jacking the thread into one about autism! And finally I said I probably won't discuss it further, because, realistically, I don't think anyone wants to.

That seems quite logical, and not terribly ridiculous to me. :-)

It's our first week of reading, and it will take a while for us to get our foothold in here. I actually find it very refreshing to see people getting their feathers ruffled because it just means we are all getting to know one other and our different personalities. We all read differently and will bring our own unique perspectives to the novel. What I think might be more troubling are those who are tempted to hold back on their thoughts allowing the more verbal ones to talk. I know I shared a few thoughts, found no reactions, so I deleted my posts. So, like I said it will take a while, but think what a glorious opportunity it will be to meet so many diffrent people from around the world all agreeing to commit one year of their lives doing the exact same thing at the same time! Good reading! Relax and enjoy. Cheers :)

No reason for anyone to delete their posts, reem. A fast moving thread like this one has been, sometimes posts get overlooked, despite them being quite noteworthy or interesting.


I understand what Valerie means though. Proust feels like an old friend of a sort, to me. Or, rather, a good friend, where you can come back to them, and they will still care for you :P

I am enjoying this volume, of what Proustitute likened to the orchestra warming up before a symphony. I found that a delightful idea.

I am eager to get into the next week of reading too, mainly to see what thoughts others have on a question that's struck me lately, and quite a few other writers and indeed filmakers.

Moonbutterfly wrote: "Rachel wrote: "And speaking of contingent Swanns, I have loved being plunged into the fluid, dreamy world of this book. Proust seems to show not only how one can contain many, but also how malleabl..."

This has been my favorite aspect of my reading so far as well. I feel I've entered another universe with heightened sensibility of the familiar/unfamiliar...the travel by train the narrator speaks of in the first few pages.

I've now read the first 5 pages at least half a dozen times...each successive time I feel I have already memorized the words...and yet discover new nuances each time.

We all read differently and will bring our own unique perspectives to the novel. What I think might be more troubling are those who are tempted to hold back on their thoughts allowing the more verbal ones to talk....So, like I said it will take a while, but think what a glorious opportunity it will be to meet so many diffrent people from around the world all agreeing to commit one year of their lives doing the exact same thing at the same time! Good reading! Relax and enjoy. Cheers :) ..."

ReemK10: I have had the same concern about readers feeling intimidated to jump in with their thoughts, questions, perceptions. The beauty is that such an overwhelming number of people around the world have signed on for a year long journey. What a fantastic opportunity for each of us to not only read ISOLT but also to learn from one another as we make our way through.

So far I have found the reading of ISOLT quite accessible, inspiring and enlightening...I hope we can achieve the same with our message board.

Cheryl wrote: "We all read differently and will bring our own unique perspectives to the novel. What I think might be more troubling are those who are tempted to hold back on their thoughts allowing the more verb..."

Well if enough of us do just that, we can have a great time and make a few friends along the way.

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "We all read differently and will bring our own unique perspectives to the novel. What I think might be more troubling are those who are tempted to hold back on their thoughts allowin..."

Yes, here's to our year of Proust...learning from one another...and making many new friends along the way.

"Why, Francoise, he doesn't know himself: it is his nerves."

Using the madeleine analogy is perhaps too obvious but we're reading Proust, and the madeleine section at that, so I will. This section has been vaguely unpleasant to read. It's brought back a lot of memories of the things - "the theatre and drama" - I did as a nervous kid who was, to some degree, aware of his nervousness. "What a dreadful thing to have a child like this!" the boy thinks.

It's because it has resonated with me that, in this section, I've focused on the emotion of the boy, but it's been hugely interesting to read the thoughts of others on ISOLT so far - I'm looking forward to seeing what comes.

Sigh. I just finished reading the assigned section and was carried back to my first amazement 45 years ago to my first reading of this madeleine episode as a high school senior. What a marvel of writing! And this time around, I realized how carefully he introduces the qualities of his "blessed moments" in this particular episode. (Proust's description of how he entices the memory to come to him reminds me of Gendllin's focusing technique)

And the grandmother -- oh, how I love her! I was struck with the mention that she never looks ironically at anyone, her loving gaze. And her gifts! What a great source of love and life and grace she is!

The best works of fiction speak to us as if they were written for us. So I very much understand the nature if what you say, Tristan. Proust has a way of speaking this universally recognisable sort if stuff, made stronger by his really fantastic prose and sensibility (sensitivity?).

By the way, I think reem10k wondered why everyone has silly names in the book. Mr. Fox. Mr. Patridge etc. I think it's to emphasise the rural nature of the setting. And also perhaps to heighten that sense of it sounding a bit like (to borrow from Nabokov) a fairy tale. What sounds sweeter to a child than names like that?

Cassian, I so agree. She is a breath of vitality and zest in the novel. So wonderfully written, and you are quite precisely right. Love, grace and wisdom.

Nick wrote: By the way, I think reem10k wondered why everyone has silly names in the book. Mr. Fox. Mr. Patridge etc. I think it's to emphasise the rural nature of the setting. And also perhaps to heighten that sense of it sounding a bit like (to borrow from Nabokov) a fairy tale. What sounds sweeter to a child than names like that?

I like that!

I'm a first-time Proust reader - I've been meaning to dig into ISOLT for a while and this was the perfect motivation to do so. I'm really enjoying both the reading and the discussion! This is also my first time really participating in an online book club. I work in corporate, and we don't exactly have a lot of deep discussions about literature, so this type of group conversation is something I've been missing for a while.

A few (totally random) thoughts;
- There is a french bakery less than a block from my house that makes excellent madelines. I've been buying one every Saturday morning and then curling up on the couch with tea, madelines, and Proust.
- My living room has violet curtains. I am now convinced of their hostility.
- The passage describing the moving slideshow in Marcel's room really struck me, especially given the recurring theme of the comfortable/known becoming the uncomfortable/unknown.
- I also love this passage (from the Moncrieff Translation): "...even in the most insignificant details of our daily life, none of us can be said to constitute a material whole, which is identical for everyone, and need only to be turned up like a page in an account book or the record of a will; our social personality is created by the thoughts of other people." This is so true, and it really made me think about the ways in which I present myself in different areas of my life (work vs. with my parents, vs. with my husband and friends, and even different groups of friends) ..the little pieces of our inner selves that we choose to expose, and when, and to whom.

Nice to meet all of you, I am really looking forward to this year.

Wow, big place we got here. I'm enjoying the reading a lot. I have to make time for it though. Although, something about time and reading seems almost part and parcel of ISOLT.

Aloha, your earlier comments about the narrator and the mother's kiss made me want to comment on my reaction. I felt these moments were horribly bittersweet for me since I lost my mother at a very young age (3) to ovarian cancer. Due to that for me personally this section was wonderful and sad. I realize though that there is that duality that to me also brings up death and loss and then recollection.

Moon butterfly, you mentioned dream world which brings me back to duality. a great way a phrasing it. I thought it was very interesting how the narrator was using physical objects and physical positions to enhance memory. This is actually a valid form of dream recall, something I was better at in my youth. I do think this is a wonderful (and subtle) way of setting up dualities. Literally I could say many many things about this. But this struck me as important. Dream recall was much more common in the past and in the ancient world.

Reluctantly sent through safari on my iPhone because the goodreads app is clunky at best.

Nick wrote: "The best works of fiction speak to us as if they were written for us. So I very much understand the nature if what you say, Tristan. Proust has a way of speaking this universally recognisable sort ..."

Yes, it was me who thought that in the post that I (ahem)deleted. I only noticed the odd names because of the Bouilleboeuf last name, and then went in search of a possible trend. I have this sense that Proust is playing with us, and that after reading this tome, we're going to be laughing at ourselves.

BTW,I mentioned this in a personal message, so I'll repeat it again here. My reading style is such that I don't concern myseelf too much with details of the how and why of the story but enjoy reading to discover an author's/translator's play with words, use of metaphor, or to find the unusual thought, comparison, analogy that will stick with me. I would also add that the opportunity to read so many case studies of characters that have been observed so closely is very exciting to me. I regret that I can't read this in the original French, but I'm counting on those that are to share their observations and surprises.

@Nick: I do like the fairytale explanation for the names.

This is my first time reading Proust, and I am enjoying the experience. I found the descriptions of sleeping in the first few pages so wonderful and enticing that I immediately fell asleep.

I am wondering if Proust is giving us his literary philosophy early on, when Swann and the aunts have a discussion about journalism. Swann says, "The fault I find with journalism is that it forces us to take an interest in some fresh triviality or other every day, whereas only three or four books in a lifetime give us anything that is of real importance" (33). He then jokes about a "happy medium" between the two. Perhaps this type of writing is what Proust is aiming for with this book? A happy medium between the daily trivialities and the stuff of real importance?

I'm enjoying this so far, and I am glad we are all here to share in this together.

That's an interesting idea, Daniel. He certainly gives us the quotidian mixed with "deeper" more thoughtful ideas.


reem, I thought about my post a little more and what I suppose I meant was "what could appeal to a reader more"! it helps establish that little idyll for us, and sets us firmly in a little rural Arcadia of sorts, or at least, a fondly remembered place and time. We already know how much that meant to him from the opening pages when he wakes up thinking he is back in his bedroom from all those years ago.

Something I mentioned earlier in the thread, and which I continue to observe in the novel, is a similarity with Sterne's Tristram Shandy - in the novel's exploration of time/memory/reality. I don't know if anyone else has read Tristram Shandy or has observed this link (it was pooh-poohed straight away when I mentioned it earlier, but you never know!) but if anyone is interested, I googled it to see if anything has been written on it, and found this essay: http://www.the-criterion.com/V3/n1/Da... Its focus is more on Sterne than Proust, but it does relate the two.

It's a good thing this group has grown to 737 members and hopefully still growing because I think it's going to take an army to decipher Proust. The animal names may even have to do with a possible painting hanging on his bedroom wall that may have served as inspiration for the names of these characters. You just never know what he's up to and should assume that nothing is as it seems.

Did you put that in the favorite quote page, Moonie?

The madeleine moment is brilliant but I also love the image of the magic lantern. Memory is projected onto the walls and furniture which are changed by what is superimposed (projected) on them. I think the metaphor of the magic lantern becomes ubiquitous to the rest of novel - not sure what is real and what is projected - yet, like the magic lantern, it's also beautiful. Every object or person ibn ISOLT becomes like the doorknob in the narrator's room... "which was different to me from all the other doorknobs in the world, inasmuch as it seemed to move of its own accord and without my having to turn it, so unconscious had its manipulation become - lo and behold, it was now an astral body for Golo." Objects in the novel are always flickering and unstable. Now what do you think of that kiss?

The magic lantern stuck in my mind too the first time I read it. I remember trying to see if I could find one for sale. They don't make them any more, though!

I decided to go back to the begining because I wanted to pay more attention to the way the Narrator shifts backwards and forwards in time.

Someone earlier on in this thread had wondered whether it was a child talking. This led me to ask myself, why do I think that this is an adult talking but that he is presenting us his childhood visions and experiences?.

That is when I decided to go back and focus on this.

Proust is just so very subtle. The reader is moved around unawares. I will just mention a few shifts I have noticed from the very beginning of the book.

The book starts off using the past tense (the Imparfait mostly). Soon after the introductory sleeping/waking processes (in which the age of the narrator is indeterminate) have begun, he makes a comparison to a traveler who has to stay in anonymous hotels (this comes across as the appreciation from an adult). This is immediately followed by the experience of waking up and escaping the threat of the granduncle and thus a child’s viewpoint is now presented. This is however not a toddler since his curls have already been cut off (so no longer a petit-enfant but a petit-garçcon. And this is a child who is experiencing already the shades of eroticism (so not a petit-garçongarçon). What is his age then?. But finally the adult makes himself present in this narration with the baffling mention of Mme de Saint-Loup and Tansonville (??¿¿ - to a first reader) and the clear cut sentence in around page 5 into the text: Car bien des années ont passé depuis Combray. This is what I was looking for.

And this waving to-and-from in time continues for the rest of the book it seems….

Amazing.

Regarding the smell v. taste issue, I don't think I'm out of line in assuming that much of the confusion from fellow readers comes from the reputation of the book. What I had now, I realize, assumed based on the reputation of the book and the scene is that the smell of the madeline begins the reverie.

Perish for a minute the tea and the varnish. The pastry smell has the reputation and the confusion, mine at least, upon reading is that taste is what is usually attributed as opening the gates. But, and here is my question, is that an issue of translation? At some point which I cannot now find, Proust uses the word savory or savor in such a way that it could be taken either way.

I think that my surprise came when the "mouthful" (taste) brought back the memories of Combray. Though I'd never read the book, I'd assumed, through its reputation, that smelling the fresh madeleines was the trigger.

Also worth noting is that Thomas Harris used the memory castle for Hannibal Lecter in his novel, "Hannibal". He may have even attributed it to Proust.

Kalliope wrote: "I decided to go back to the begining because I wanted to pay more attention to the way the Narrator shifts backwards and forwards in time...What is his age then?."

One of the reasons we are so confused about his age in this section may be that, as a result of his delicate constitution, he was treated like a child and sent to bed early for a lot longer than most children and therefore it is possible that these scenes could have happened at any time even into his teens which would explain why his parents found his neediness so embarrassing. After all, in the first line of the book, he emphasises that he went to bed early 'longtemps', i.e. over a long period. This explanation would allow the more 'adult' insights offered by this 'child' to fit in better.
(Excuse me if this has been discussed somewhere else already - I don't have time to follow all the threads.)

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I decided to go back to the begining because I wanted to pay more attention to the way the Narrator shifts backwards and forwards in time...What is his age then?."

One of the reas..."

Yes, that famous opening "Longtemps...", you are right. Already in the first word there is an indication that these are memories.

On the violet color of the curtains (l’hostilité des rideaux violets): violet became a very fashionable color in the second half of the nineteenth Century, when it was first synthesized as a result of chemical investigation of the anilines for medical use. The color became a bit of a craze.

And the Impressionists began using it generously, almost always in the shadows of yellows, but also on its own. The color began to be available for artists after it was manufactured for use in the textile industry.

I imagine, regarding his age, there is a deliberate vagueness about it, because the novel is about how the mind, memory and senses experience time, which is unrelated to years and numbers. Even the word 'longtemps' is relative - what appears to be 'longtemps' to a child can be very different from what appears to be 'longtemps' to an adult.

I agree that this is more of a memory of experiences, which can be distorted from the objective reality.

Sorry, Moonie, I meant the favorite Proust quote page.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

ReemK10 wrote: "My reading style is such that I don't concern myself too much with details of the how and why of the story but enjoy reading to discover an author's/translator's play with words, use of metaphor, or to find the unusual thought, comparison, analogy that will stick with me."

To encourage you, I for one would like to read in these discussions of your "reading style", your concerns, your discoveries.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: "My reading style is such that I don't concern myself too much with details of the how and why of the story but enjoy reading to discover an author's/translator's play with words, u..."

How intriguing of you Eugene. What I do is look for patterns, and it is almost always unconsciously. I take in large amounts of information as I read of all sorts of reading material, and it all just sits in the backburner of my mind, until it suddenly makes an appearance as a " oh that's why so and so does..." The processing happens of its own accord, if that makes any sense. Ideas have to stew.

Jonpaul wrote: "Also worth noting is that Thomas Harris used the memory castle for Hannibal Lecter in his novel, "Hannibal". He may have even attributed it to Proust."

Sherlock Holmes in the new BBC version also uses what he calls a "mind palace" - there's a pretty great scene in the Hound of the Baskervilles episode.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: "My reading style is such that I don't concern myself too much with details of the how and why of the story but enjoy reading to discover an author's/translator's play with words, u..."

If I may add this thought that occurred to me with regards to the members(which I know ought to go in the group lounge thread, but since the topic started in here, and today is the last day of this thread I'll just post it here). I'm sure that there are people that think along the same lines that we have members who are rather academic in their approach to the novel, and others like myself that are more the autodidact which makes us feel that we may be posting something that sounds rather naive. If we are to learn from you, do indulge us our expressions, and try to be mindful of the effort it takes for some people to come out of their shells to share something. My feelers are focused on the readers than the reading. (shrugs)

It would depend on the type of memory (eg. episodic, semantic, procedural, etc.) - I wonder if he values some types of memory above others and whether he explores different types of memory as the novel progresses.

Kristina wrote: "Jonpaul wrote: "Also worth noting is that Thomas Harris used the memory castle for Hannibal Lecter in his novel, "Hannibal". He may have even attributed it to Proust."

Sherlock Holmes in the new B..."

A GR Member, Madame X, pointed out earlier in this thread that the Memory Palace is a concept that has a long history. She pointed at the Renaissance. According to the wiki, this goes back to Roman times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_o...

Kalliope wrote: And this waving to-and-from in time continues for the rest of the book it seems….

Amazing.

I would add that simultaneously, there are shifts in consciousness, whether from young narrator to older narrator to states in between or from narrator to his mother to his relatives to other characters that suddenly appear. One such switch that I loved was that switch he makes from the anxious self waiting for his mother to the unexpected shift to Swann and all people anxiously waiting for an answer of some kind. Suddenly, Swann is made so real, made equal to the narrator and a wonderful dual compassion between the narrator and Swann is established. It also pulls us in for who hasn't waited anxiously in that way?

Proustitute wrote: "MARCEL PROUST AT ILLIERS-COMBRAY
a temple of memory in the french countryside
http://www.architecturaldigest.com/ad...

Worth reading, re: Proust, sp..."

Thank you.. This really makes you want to travel and visit the place.