The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Very curious!

Kalliope wrote: "but I see these comments on the blurring of the Narrator as reader and the Narrator as the subject of the book as going even deeper than a distinction between fiction and autobiography. These comments raise the more complex issue of Subjectivity, which was one of the major elements Modernism, which fragmented the “subject”.

I found an article about the magic lantern and the issue of subjectivity (section: 2. The light projection before cinema: the magic lantern and Phantasmagoria)

http://runningstills.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/cinema-and-light-projection-exploring-leonardos-last-supper/

Here are some excerpts:

"...in fact vision now became more subjective, light become more immersive involving the immersion of the body in the spectacle, and  the mobility of the image in different planes of action provoked inner psychological stimulations and the involvement of other sense, especially the touch. Terry Castle in her essay Phantasmagoria: Spectral Technology and the Metaphorics of Modern Reverie, points out the illusionistic and revolutionary power of Phantasmagoria which bring to the destruction the objective and external vision, in fact “ from an initial connection with something external and public  (and artificial produced ‘spectral ‘ illusion) the word [phantasmagoria] has now come to refer to something wholly internal or subjective: the phantasmic imagery of the mind” 

"In Phantasmagoria the stimulated mind created an imagery dimension working like a magic lantern capable to project images and thoughts into the memory,: ‘afterimages’ a phenomenon closely related to the persistence of vision in the mind, which allows a rapid series of pictures to portray motion, which is the basis of animation and cinema. To sum up, the magic lantern was the most revolutionary devices for the art of projection ... . its mode of representation has  introduced a new concept of vision and changed the notion of objectivity of the real. ... The sight and the visual perception is challenged by shocking effects:  the viewing subject find itself immerse into the spectacle, part of an extraordinary experience which involves the imagination and may cause hallucinations, disorientation and loss of control over the visual space. In particular, the Phantasmagoria illusionistic and ghostly performances have illustrated the disintegration of the paradigm internal/external, typical of the camera obscura,  and it called into question the constitution of what is real...."

Thank you, Edu. That looks really interesting. I'll take a look at it. Magic lanterns are so magical in that they seem to slow down time, at least from my modern point of view.

Jeremy wrote: "...based on the just the first part of Cambray I am not of the opinion that the narrator has an Oedipal complex. We all read this through our personal life experiences and a multitude of fiction and non-fiction that we have read. From my personal experience I remember how important it was for my father to tuck my brother and I in at night. ..."

I have to admit that at first, I thought of the kiss scene as something kind of weird, but then I remembered as Jeremy did, when I was 4 or 5 years old, I was having a nightmare and then I couldn't sleep, and then I had to call my mother to make me company at 2 or 3am maybe, "please come to my room, I'm scared"... and then she made me company... when I remembered that, only then I could understand better the ISOLT narrator as a child, and then it make me realize of something:

in order to get the best experience from these first 60 pages from ISOLT, I needed to turn on a kind of CHILD-reader-mode, I mean, being a reader with the point of view of a child. You know, when we were kids, we perceived things in one way, mother and father meant something diferrent to what they mean now when we are adults. I mean, the WHOLE world meant something different. And I realized when reading this first pages of ISOLT, and reading the comments in this thread that, as Proust as a writer, was playing with these different points of view (adult and child), myself, like a reader, needed to play with those different points of view too. And that means that I had to travel in my mind to the perception of the world I had when being a child, and turn on a CHILD-READER-MODE in my mind, when reading the narrator as a child... which is something i never felt I needed to do with any other book I read in my life, where I always was on ADULT-READER-MODE, without realizing it

by the way, I'm not a native english speaker, so I hope I made myself clear, cheers!

Edu wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "...based on the just the first part of Cambray I am not of the opinion that the narrator has an Oedipal complex. We all read this through our personal life experiences and a multitud..."

Edu, you could have fooled me that you're not a native English speaker. You write better than some I know. I've dealt with normal children and see them in varying moods. That's why I can't accept that because the child wants his mom and becomes very upset at being denied her, that there is something psychologically wrong with him. The remembrance of the event is from the point of view of a sensitive man who is able to write in beautiful detail the minutiae of emotions felt by the remembered boy, and somehow put in his own analysis of the boy/himself. Thus, in a way, this is the past mixed with the present.

Edu wrote: "One thing for sure after reading these 64 first pages of ISOLT is tomorrow morning, my usual Nesquik breakfast cereal, made of chocolate-flavored rice and corn puffs, mixed with milk, will take me ..."

There you are: you're already seeing our world through Proust's eyes rather than Proust's world through our eyes.
Magic.

PS Your English is fine!

Edu - I must pile on with the compliments on your English. You have clearly mastered our language! What is your native tongue? (haven't stalked your profile yet).

That is an interesting point about trying to read from a child point of view. While I can remember certain things about my childhood (a lot of things) it is hard to recapture the actual feelings and emotions. Which makes it hard to parent sometimes!! Also, like you say, Proust moves in and out of the child/adult perspective so frequently and fluently that we have to be very versatile as readers.

Aloha wrote: Edu, you could have fooled me that you're not a native English speaker. You write better than some I know. I've dealt with normal children and see them in varying moods. That's why I can't accept that because the child wants his mom and becomes very upset at being denied her, that there is something psychologically wrong with him.

Thanks Aloha! Guess watching all "Lost" seasons with english audio and english subtitles made me improve a lot with my english skills. And Google can always check my spelling! Anyway, it's still a little bit of work for me translating my thoughts to english, hope I'm a good translator of myself, good to know I'm doing at least, not bad. I'm really glad I can be part of this 2013-Proust-worldwide-reading-group, and guess that something like this will not repeat again, and if it does, sure it won't be the same that the first time.

I agree the narrator-child is psychologically healthy. I find the kiss scene may be a little weird, but in a sense of a natural weirdness that everybody can have when being a child.

Karen wrote: There you are: you're already seeing our world through Proust's eyes rather than Proust's world through our eyes.
Magic.

It's really one of a kind experience, and the good thing is that is going to last all 2013... well, at least for all of us who want to stay on it till the end.

Jeremy wrote: That is an interesting point about trying to read from a child point of view. While I can remember certain things about my childhood (a lot of things) it is hard to recapture the actual feelings and emotions.

You are right, I guess that's what "Lost time" stands for... we are really like "In search of recapturing feelings and emotions from the past", when reading this book, and it's a hard search, as you said. It's a voyage we have to be determined to start and keep on it.

Jeremy wrote: "Exhuasted as I have finally caught up with these threads (or I should say THIS thread)! I am going to make sure I have part "3" done by the end of this week so I don't have to devote so much time ..."

Yes, I agree with the comments about young children and bedtime. The relationship between Proust as a little boy and his mother didn't strike me as psychologically unhealthy.

Nick wrote: "The humour was a welcome discovery to me, on my reading, too Jeremy. I very much understand what you mean about expecting older books to have no humour! What a nice surprise to be proven wrong, and..."

Yes I agree on the humour. There have been a couple of gentle, funny moments in the descriptions of the family and family life.

Kalliope wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "Also, as Swann is described as having "fair, almost red hair, dressed in the Bressant style," here's an image showing Jean Baptiste Prosper Bressant's hair:

"

Thank you for th..."
I like your comment! That's exactly what I tend to do. What did we do before Google?

Leni wrote: "Here is a photo I look at a local museum which displayed an actual Magic Lantern:
Magic Lantern and Slides, c1890's
The magic lantern was a popular form of entertainment in the late 19th century an..."

Thanks for the photo. I gather from the book that it was just projected on the wall without an attempt to set up a screen?

J.A. wrote: "According to Bookdrum, Proust's taste/smell experience came with toast and tea. He changed toast to madeleine's because of the symbolic significance of the cakes: The shell-like shape of a madelein..."

Thank goodness he did! A madeleine is so much more evocative to the senses than a piece of burnt toast!

Proustitute wrote: "As for the magic lantern, I quite like Gerard Bertrand's series of Proust, Photographies recomposées, from which this image is taken (click for larger):



"
I imagined from the book that more than one image was being projected at one time.

Moonbutterfly wrote: "Gail wrote: "Me? Nah - I'm more worried about the little boy's grandmother,..."

Well, you made me think about the story from a different perspective. So thanks for that."

I love the grandmother. The fact that she can't stand the roses to be tethered and likes to run around in the rain and not worry about the mud on her skirts. It must have been hard to be a free spirit in those days but she seems to have been given a certain licence.

Andreea wrote: "Gail wrote: "I'm curious because I was under the impression that most people's minds don't work like this. Mine does, as I'm on the autism spectrum, but my understanding was that most people's mind..."

Andreea wrote: "Gail wrote: "I'm curious because I was under the impression that most people's minds don't work like this. Mine does, as I'm on the autism spectrum, but my understanding was that most people's mind..."
For me this passage says more about the time's buttoned up attitude towards children and the adults' judgment of the child's behaviour (whether a sin or a sickness, still in some way wrong) which the narrator has taken on board in his own attitudes about himself.

Nick wrote: "Aloha wrote: "...It's like looking into a glittering diamond."

Yes it is. Have you read Perfume by Patrick Süskind? I could taste that novel. I am experiencing the same breadth of vivid and evocat..."

Yes, I agree but I'm enjoying this more. Perfume took me to olfactory experiences I didn't particularly enjoy!

I loved the description of Uncle Adolf's apartment with the gilt roof and the servant dressed in a suit of purple stripes. (Did I hear that right? I'm listening to an audio book and meant to go back and check.) Does the servant's attire act as an immediate signal of the type of lifestyle being led or was this just high fashion at the time? Does anyone have photos of dress from this period they could post?

Chris, I think this is the passage you were referring to in Uncle Adolphe's apartment. Let me see whether I can find clothing photos from this period.

"Once or twice a month, in Paris, I used to be sent to pay him a visit, as he was finishing his luncheon, wearing a simple jacket and waited upon by his manservant in a tunic of striped drill, purple and white. He would complain that I had not been to see him for a long time, that he was being neglected; he would offer me a biscuit or a tangerine, and we would go through a drawing-room in which no one ever sat, whose fire was never lighted, whose walls were decorated with gilded mouldings, its ceiling painted blue in imitation of the sky, and its furniture upholstered in satin, as at my grandparents’, only yellow; then we would enter what he called his “study,” a room whose walls were hung with prints which showed, against a dark background, a pink and fleshy goddess driving a chariot, or standing upon a globe, or wearing a star on her brow—pictures which were popular under the Second Empire because there was thought to be something about them that suggested Pompeii, which were then generally despised, and which are now becoming fashionable again for one single and consistent reason (notwithstanding all the others that are advanced), namely, that they suggest the Second Empire." (ML)

Ah, I knew Marcelita would have it. She has a Fashion in Proust in her Pinterest:

http://pinterest.com/marcelitaswann/f...

Chris wrote: A madeleine is so much more evocative to the senses than a piece of burnt toast!

That was my initial reaction too, Chris. But then I remembered what a wonderful sensation eating toast can be when made with delicious, well-made bread (not mass-produced but homemade or artisinal), grilled so that the top is light brown and the center warm and steamy. I like to think he was eating the toast with a cup of Marco Polo tea from Mariage Frère.

J.A. wrote: "Chris wrote: A madeleine is so much more evocative to the senses than a piece of burnt toast!

That was my initial reaction too, Chris. But then I remembered what a wonderful sensation eating toas..."
Gosh! I can see I haven't lived enough yet!

LOL, Chris!

Aloha wrote: "Chris, I think this is the passage you were referring to in Uncle Adolphe's apartment. Let me see whether I can find clothing photos from this period.

"Once or twice a month, in Paris, I used to ..."

Thanks for that! Yes, isn't that a great description? The servant in purple and white. Chairs of yellow satin. Gilt mouldings. Sky blue ceiling. Pink and fleshy goddess. So vivid! And the bit of humour at the end of the passage. Sorry for stumbling over Adolphe's name. One of the hazards of an audio book.

I've cleared the decks so I can start this today.

I'm reading the LD translation.

I haven't read any of the threads yet, so sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere, but should I read/not read the Introduction first?

Ian, start wherever you need to get your bearing. You might want to focus on reading up until the current start date for tomorrow and not worry too much about the threads. You'll want to enjoy the book first and foremost. But do whatever feels best for you.

Ian, are you concerned about spoilers in the LD translation? If so, I'm not sure whether that's an issue, since I'm reading the ML edition, but maybe someone else who's reading LD can chime in here.

Thanks, Aloha. I would like to at least catch up by next Sunday. What about the Introduction at the front of the book?

Do like a reader of the time, and jump right in from the beginning, no Introduction, Ian. That's what I say. Dive in!

Nick wrote: "Do like a reader of the time, and jump right in from the beginning, no Introduction, Ian. That's what I say. Dive in!"

Thanks, Nick, that's what I was thinking, too. Most Introductions should really be Afterwords, anyway.

I have the ML translation, and the introduction is invaluable there. I wouldn't miss the introduction in the ML. The LD, I don't know.

My personal preerence of course, I should have added. I try and even avoid blurbs if I can...strange I know. I just want the book and the text to unfold, without preconception, anticipation to be either sated, warranted, rebuffed or proven sadly misplaced. If I remember after reading, I will then go back to the introductions, or blurbs or prefaces or what have yous. A bit backwards, but it can be illuminating.

Anyway: welcome to Proust, Ian! and to this group, and I hope you find the book a good read!

I forgot to welcome Ian, since I often chat with him. Welcome, Ian! I'm glad you were able to clear the deck. I'm sure you'll have some great things to say since you are fresh from your travels through Europe.

Are there any spoilers in the ML introduction? can you copy an interesting fragment so people who don't have access to it can make an idea of the information there? I'm curious... thanks

I hope you don't mind me re-posting this comment and photo from my updates about my trip to Paris in December, 2012:

A lot of the pavements around the hotels near the Louvre have mosaic footpaths with names on.

In December, 2012, I took a photo of one marked "Swann".

I'm going to pretend I walked Swann's Way if only for a little while.

Edu, here is an excerpt of the introduction I find interesting:

"Proust’s every gigantic effort is to subtract his “empty” Narrator’s discovery (and possession) of time regained from what Gaston Bachelard calls the “false permanence” of biography. That is what pushes this enormous novel over the edge (the edge of encyclopedic allusion, of social chronicle, of literary emulation, of symbolist dithering, and of speculations concerning love, art, death, and time) into that enormous structure (abyss?) of repudiations which is our modernity."

Ian wrote: "I hope you don't mind me re-posting this comment and photo from my updates about my trip to Paris in December, 2012:

A lot of the pavements around the hotels near the Louvre have mosaic footpaths ..."

Now, that should be our group pin.

Aloha, sorry to be pedantic and anal, but are you recommending reading an Introduction before starting the book itself? I would always read it, one way or the other.

Although there is a ton of stuff about Proust available, I'm a bit wary of something shaping my read.

Ian, if you're wary, then do what Nick recommends and read the intro. later. Enjoy Proust's texts with a fresh eye.

Edu, another excerpt from the ML intro. that is interesting but won't give away spoilers:

“In other words, it is futile to wonder if the Narrator of the Search is the Marcel Proust so many people remembered knowing after the book was published, and even before; the Narrator is simply another Proust, one quite frequently unrecognized by the author (in fact Marcel Proust couldn’t recognize the Narrator, since this other Proust is created by what is written, not by the author’s intention to write …).”

Ian wrote: "Aloha, sorry to be pedantic and anal, but are you recommending reading an Introduction before starting the book itself? I would always read it, one way or the other.

Although there is a ton of stu..."

Ian, the Gallimard paperback edition has no Intro. Just jump ahead and read it later.

Aloha wrote: "Edu, another excerpt from the ML intro. that is interesting but won't give away spoilers:

“In other words, it is futile to wonder if the Narrator of the Search is the Marcel Proust so many people ..."

Thanks for those excerpts Aloha. Since a lot of people is putting auxiliary reading in these threads, fragments like the ones you post really come in handy.

I like the "Proust vs. other Proust created by what it is written" idea.

For me Proust is like the father of the book, and the book itself is a new creature. It may have the father's eyes or hair, but it has really a life of its own. And it's like a geometrical creature with constant changes of perspectives, traveling easy through time and space, very sensitive to memories and art... or whatever I'm trying to say.

Edu wrote: "For me Proust is like the father of the book, and the book itself is a new creature. It may have the father's eyes or hair, but it has really a life of its own. And it's like a geometrical creature with constant changes of perspectives, traveling easy through time and space, very sensitive to memories and art... or whatever I'm trying to say."

Beautifully expressed.

Denise wrote: "Edu wrote: "For me Proust is like the father of the book, and the book itself is a new creature. It may have the father's eyes or hair, but it has really a life of its own. And it's like a geometr..."

Edu: such a visual and precise summary of something so elusive. You snagged it right in the palm of your hand.

Greg wrote: "Although I finished reading this (and the next) section in the last week of December, I'm only now getting around to reading the comments. My thanks to everyone who has contributed the comments. ..."

Greg,
I feel exactly the same way. Curious? Are you a visual person?
I find listening to Proust a totally different experience than reading. My Proust-brain must be wired via the visual cortex.

I can certainly understand why auditory learners eschew reading 3000+ pages; we must encourage them to listen instead, rather than avoid Proust.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote : "Listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTIXKU... over and over..."

It would even put the narrator to sleep ;-)

Yes Neville Jason is excellent; Proust writes in "a convers..."

I noted a link on another thread...John Rowe also reads "Swann's Way."
There is something about his voice, that is so genuine in The Overture.
I take him to bed with me...

Kalliope wrote: "On the violet color of the curtains (l’hostilité des rideaux violets): violet became a very fashionable color in the second half of the nineteenth Century, when it was first synthesized as a result..."

Color-leitmotifs... Seeing Gilberte's eyes for the first time, "...since I had not, as they say, enough 'power of observation' to isolate the notion of their colour, for a long time afterwards, whenever I thought of her, the memory of those bright eyes would at once present itself to me as a vivid azure..."

Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On the violet color of the curtains (l’hostilité des rideaux violets): violet became a very fashionable color in the second half of the nineteenth Century, when it was first synthe..."


I know Frank Sinatra's favorite color was orange, but I'm text-lost after seeing this:
http://www.colourlovers.com/color/BD6...

Edu wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "...based on the just the first part of Cambray I am not of the opinion that the narrator has an Oedipal complex. We all read this through our personal life experiences and a multitud..."

Edu~
Wonderful perspective...I think I'll get in touch with my inner-child more often.

Nick wrote: "My personal preerence of course, I should have added. I try and even avoid blurbs if I can...strange I know. I just want the book and the text to unfold, without preconception, anticipation to be e..."

Like you, Nick, I want to be taken on a carpet-ride; I even read movie reviews, after I see a film.