The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Swann’s Way (In Search of Lost Time, #1)
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Swann's Way, vol. 1 > Through Sunday, 13 Jan.: Swann's Way

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message 101: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Oh, William Carter made some interesting observations on the landscape analogies in The Proustian Quest.


message 102: by Eugene (new)

Eugene | 479 comments Aloha wrote: "My hunch is that he's repeating the layout of the cathedral in his stories, the town of Combray, etc."

I know nothing of churches in France or anywhere, "their symbolic significance", their structure, etc. but I've read that Proust made pilgrimages to visit churches that Ruskin wrote about; and in fact in a later volume he takes the narrator on a pilgrimage to visit a church to study its architecture. Churches were important to Proust as we see here in volume 1 and in the 2nd volume his fictional artist, Elstir, knows quite a bit about them and relates their beauty to an understanding young narrator.

Because churches were so important to Proust, I wouldn't be surprised that their structure might figure symbolically into the structure of the novel.

Let me reread Proust on the narrator coming in to Combray, his lyrical entrance into Sainte-Hilaire, his movements about town with the presence of the church always being there...


message 103: by ReemK10 (Paper Pills) (last edited Jan 08, 2013 06:54PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments Eugene asked earlier on what words stood out to me: here's one particular phrase-

... characterized certain pretty, pious and unfeeling bourgeois ladies I saw at Mass, some of whom had long since been enrolled in the reserve militia of Injustice(83).

the reserve militia of injustice with a capital I


message 104: by Denise (new) - rated it 4 stars

Denise Aloha wrote:Daniel, what's interesting in the particular passage you pointed out was that the steeple of Combray is the fixed point, while the Narrator sees the steeple from varying angles. This is the reverse of last week's Narrator as child in bed scene, where the bed is the fixed point while everything else revolves around it, with the Magic Lantern as a nice symbol for that. And then there's the apse again in relation to the steeple:

Auntie Leonie's room also seems to provide this imagery. Her rooms to which she confines herself serve as a fixed point. She sits and observes the town from her window calling on Francoise and Eulalie to interpret/validate her view. It might be a stretch but the Narrator, sitting in his garden, looks to his books/stories to provide him with a view upon the world.

The image of the apse is subtly recurrent as well.

"It was Francois, motionless and erect, framed in the small doorway of the corridor like the statue of a saint in its niche. When we had grown more accustomed to this religious darkness we could discern in her features the disinterested love of humanity, the tender respect for the gentry, which the hope of receiving New Year bounty intensified in the nobler regions of her heart."
His garden chair also fits the description of apse: ""And as I did not want to interrupt my I would go on with it in the garden, under the chestnut tree, in a hooded chair of wicker and canvas in the depths of which I used to sit and feel I was hidden from the eyes of anyone who might be coming to call upon the family"

It occurs to me that the description of Francois above is not far removed from Giotto's Virtues. Additionally, the Narrator's chair is a fixed point, as well, from which he views/hides from the world, immersed in his books.


message 105: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Those are great observations, Denise. I think there are plenty of themes to look closely at, the cathedral, the landscape, time, memory, relationships between characters, relationship between objects, relationship between character and object, and sentence structure. There's probably more, but that's plenty for me to munch on. Carter's The Proustian Quest examined speed.


message 106: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 08, 2013 07:12PM) (new)

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "What a sentence."

That section stood out to me too, Reem. I also liked, immediately before the passage you quoted, the little jump into a mid-point between narrative and discourse time where he looks back and reflects on the life of such a woman:
It has since struck me as one of the most touching aspects of the part played in life by these idle, painstaking women that they devote all their generosity, all their talent, their transferable dreams of sentimental beauty...and their gold, which counts for little, to the fashioning of a fine and precious setting for the rubbed and scratched and ill-polished lives of men.

In describing the actress, he is also learning something about his uncle, the vacancy that she fills.


message 107: by [deleted user] (new)

I'm at work, by the way, without my copy of Swann's Way - so I had to look it up on Google Books. The Davis translation didn't have searchable preview.


message 108: by J.A. (new)

J.A. Pak I also loved how the Narrator is at first disappointed by the pink lady because she seems rather ordinary, but then ends up falling in love with her as she fusses over him. Proust showing us how effective these ladies can be at seducing both men and boys.

The episode ends so sadly, with that misunderstanding between uncle and nephew which never gets resolved.


message 109: by Denise (new) - rated it 4 stars

Denise Aloha wrote: "Those are great observations, Denise. I think there are plenty of themes to look closely at, the cathedral, the landscape, time, memory, relationships between characters, relationship between obje..."

In the time it took me to type that both you and Eugene commented on the same thing in a less specific manner. Sorry to be redundant. i type even slower than I think.


message 110: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Denise wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Those are great observations, Denise. I think there are plenty of themes to look closely at, the cathedral, the landscape, time, memory, relationships between characters, relationshi..."

Don't apologize, Denise. Those are great notes. We need details to see the subtleties.


message 111: by Kalliope (last edited Jan 12, 2013 08:03AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope The church description is fascinating. As every body (Aloha and Eugene) Proust was obviously very interested in Medieval churches. He translated Ruskin’s La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et notes de Marcel Proust, and in his cultural pilgrimages to the churches in the North of France he took as his companion manual Emile Mâle’s The Gothic Image: Religious Art In France Of The Thirteenth Century. Proust also corresponded with Mâle repeatedly and would ask him specific advice on things to see and notice before going anywhere, and not just on the Medieval architecture. And when Màle’s book Religious Art from the Twelfth to the Eighteenth Century came out, Proust asked one of his friends that this is what he wanted for a gift. (see Carter's Marcel Proust: A Life).

Emile Mâle’s books on Medieval Art continue to be much used books. They are wonderful.

Medieval architecture is absolutely loaded with religious symbolism. If anyone is interested in knowing more, I advise them to go directly to Mâle’s books. I will just point at one difference between Romanesque and Gothic (and the Narrator makes the contrast clear in his description of the Combray church). In Romanesque churches very massive walls and vaults, in the Roman style, were very dark. As the Mid Ages unfolded, light took an extraordinarily powerful religious meaning but the Christian temples were dark. Gothic structures were devised precisely to solve this. These churches have the structure of a firm skeleton that allows height, and large windows, and holy light to stream in and illuminate everyone there.

And I think it is more this concept of a structure of interconnected ribs and buttresses that gave Proust what he needed to coalesce together his work (his ribs are the themes that interconnect different scenes and situations pulling them together). I see that it must have been these internally linking themes (Gothic) rather than an addition of elements (Romanesque) what distinguishes La recherche from Jean Santeuil.

There is one other thing on the layout of the Medieval Churches that may be relevant to Proust. In that part of France, the churches were on the pilgrimage path. The gothic layout of those churches allows for the Mass to be celebrated without interruption but without preventing the entrance of pilgrims who arrive and depart at any time. A sort of peripheral corridor surrounds the main nave and apse (side aisles and ambulatory) so that pilgrims could walk around the church and visit the side chapels with the relics at any time. So there is both a whole and a series of semi independent units, but all united by the Gothic skeleton of themes.


message 112: by Nick (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nick Wellings | 322 comments No worries, Eugene! I am glad you liked the books. Did you find Bowie's essay on of the most useful ones in there for your interests? I do like that collection a lot. I think it's the best critical summary out there. Bloom (has one which I am reading) and it is a bit patchy.


message 113: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Kalliope wrote: "The church description is fascinating. As every body (Aloha and Eugene) Proust was obviously very interested in Medieval churches. He translated Ruskin’s La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et..."

Thank you for the information, Kalliope. I've made the two books my soon to read. It looks like there will be plenty of auxiliary material for me to read so I can fight my urge to read ahead the ISOLT. Your differentiation between the Gothic and Romanesque churches was significant to Proust's writing. We just saw it in the analysis of the light like a peacock's tail. I think in reading Proust, the best approach would be to place ourselves in the eye of the painter. What makes the painter put each dab of verbal paint on there? Why that description? Why that particular word or phrase? What is he seeing?


message 114: by Kalliope (last edited Jan 09, 2013 03:36AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The church description is fascinating. As every body (Aloha and Eugene) Proust was obviously very interested in Medieval churches. He translated Ruskin’s La Bible d'Amiens. Tradu..."

The problem with reading Mâle is that it will awake the desire to travel and visit the sites. LOL...!!!

It shows Proust’s understanding of the church interior that after entering he moves so quickly into describing the effects of light going through the stained glass.

You are right in stressing his approach as a painter.

Both the peacock and the rainbow have been considered by painters, ever since the Middle Ages as the most challenging things to depict in all their full iridescent hues. Color theoreticians who were also Theologians in the Middle Ages (or the other way around -- eg: Abbé Suger) saw something divine in the peacock, since its colors could only be found in precious stones or in glass thanks to divine light (which is what Proust gives us in a secular version).

This reading of Proust branches out to infinity..!!!.. so many things crop up...


message 115: by Aloha (last edited Jan 09, 2013 04:13AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha I also wonder about Proust's huge love theme and how it ties into all this, the child's love for his mother,(view spoiler), and more. But I don't want to give away spoilers since I read ahead.


message 116: by Nick (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nick Wellings | 322 comments I agree with you Kalli, Proust does cover so much, and his work can be read in so many ways. It's fabulous.

The Love theme is very important to the book. But as we've seen, eveything in Proust is important, and nearly every little incident/encounter/character is weighted with meaning. So even though it is a huge novel, not much is wasted. (I guess though, some of the party scenes do go on a bit though :P)


message 117: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Kalliope wrote: "The church description is fascinating. As every body (Aloha and Eugene) Proust was obviously very interested in Medieval churches. He translated Ruskin’s La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et..."

Of the two books, The Gothic Image: Religious Art In France Of The Thirteenth Century and Religious Art from the Twelfth to the Eighteenth Century, it looks like the book to get is The Gothic Image if you had to choose. Here's an Amazon reviewer's comment on Religious Art from the Twelfth:

"This book is composed of excerpts from Emile Male's more weighty tomes on French religious art. Unfortunately, the result is a patchwork of ideas that are not well connected and not clearly explained. A reader interested in Gothic art, for example, would learn more reading Male's more complete "The Gothic Image: Religious Art in France of the Thirteenth Century." "Gothic Image" is longer and perhaps more detailed than "Religious Art from the Twelfth to the Eighteenth Century," but "Gothic Image" is easier to read because the ideas are presented more completely."


Kalliope Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The church description is fascinating. As every body (Aloha and Eugene) Proust was obviously very interested in Medieval churches. He translated Ruskin’s La Bible d'Amiens. Tradu..."

I have the first one, and Mâle's expertise is the Middle Ages, so even if he could venture into later times, I am not surprised by the comments in Amazon.


message 119: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 09, 2013 06:21AM) (new)

I'm glad you all are sharing bits and pieces of the auxiliary reading as it relates to each section. It adds to the understanding for sure, though I am glad I read it after because it is also nice to just be impressed upon without any of that knowledge. A nice combination.

This 75 or so pages of reading covered so much ground. It is amazing how many thoughts, philosophies, character building, themes that Proust can pack in to a relatively small space. Much of this thread has been devoted to the church description and Prousts love of reading, but he also delves into soldiers and the nature of man and war, more introduction of Swann and his daughter (in the Narrator's imagination), Aunt Leonie and her (everyone's) desire to know all about the comings and goings of everyone in their small town, general societal views about ladies visiting with men...so much going on here.

One of my favorite styles of writing is when the author mentions an action and then proceeds to give a back story that seems to have nothing to do with that action (and the back story of that and so on) to the point where you have forgotten about the main story. In this section Proust does that with Swann, who interrupts the Narrator's reading but then we are learning about his relationship with Broch and his growing love of reading Bergotte.

There was a wonderful thought in there to me when he compared knowing how he would feel in the future about Bergotte when he had moved on to other authors to how he would feel about his first love if someone told him of his future amours. That states how powerful and important time is in that we do not know our futures. Not only the physical events in our futures, but how our emotions change over time based on our experience.


message 120: by Kalliope (last edited Jan 09, 2013 07:40AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope Jeremy wrote: "I'm glad you all are sharing bits and pieces of the auxiliary reading as it relates to each section. It adds to the understanding for sure, though I am glad I read it after because it is also nice..."

I am still finding my reading pattern.

On the one hand it is very hard to stop oneself to continue with the story. But I have decided to respect the calendar and keep the measured pace, and it is proving a very interesting experience.

On the first reading I seem to be mapping out things, but then this blog invites to go back and examine again episodes as the different issues are mentioned by other members.. By revisiting, I see things that had not stood out before and that easily invite into further expansion. But after focusing, as if with a magnifying glass, I feel I have to step back again and look at it from the distance and reread again the week's sections, without fragmentation.

This is a new way for me to read.


message 121: by Nick (last edited Jan 09, 2013 07:35AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nick Wellings | 322 comments I might be wrong, Jaye...but sadly I think the "do not know from Adam" is an English-ism that was shoved into the text by the translators. I like it because it is very colloquial, more forceful than "someone we did not know" and it sounds "old fashioned".

"On connaissait tellement bien tout le monde, à Combray, bêtes et gens, que si ma tante avait vu par hasard passer un chien « qu'elle ne connaissait point », elle ne cessait d'y penser et de consacrer à ce fait incompréhensible ses talents d'induction et ses heures de liberté."

Sad to say, it's a lovely addition IMO but not in the text...Lydia Davis translation just has "someone we didn't know" I think. Or rather, does not include Adam...


I am refraining from reading ahead too, Kalli. It is also a new way of reading for me. I usually rush ahead :)


message 122: by Nancy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nancy (nancyhamer) Thanks SO much for directing us to THE BOOK DRUM. This makes such an enormous difference in the appreciation of the novel. Too bad it only covers Vol. I.


message 123: by Fionnuala (new) - added it

Fionnuala | 1142 comments Kalliope wrote: "This is a new way for me to read."

Reading to a schedule, and with a group, is new and challenging for me too. I am making an effort to keep up with the discussions and I appreciate all the extra information that you are all posting here. However, when I'm reading Proust's words on the page, I forget all the extra information and just sink into the world he is describing with such skill. What strikes me most in this section so far is the chimeric nature of the description of the play of light on the interior of the church and the almost anthropomorphic descriptions of the bell tower. I'm wondering if as a child Proust didn't spend long periods of time suffering with high temperatures; there is a kind of hallucinatory lavishness of detail in some of the descriptions which suggest an extremely heightened sensibility, eg: "..il (le clocher) était au contraire si doux, dans la journée finissante, qu'il avait l'air d'être posé et enfoncé comme un coussin de velours brun sur le ciel pâli qui avait cédé sous sa pression, s'était creusé légèrement pour lui faire sa place et refluait sur ses bords;"
It is interesting here also to see how the translations accord with the original. I'm feeling that the hallucinatory effect that I've picked up in the above passage is less present in the translations: "...it (the steeple) was on the contrary so soft, in the close of day, that it looked as if it had been set down and crushed like a cushion of brown velvet against a pale sky which had yielded under pressure, hollowing slightly to give it room and flowing back over its edges;" Davis
"...the steeple was by contrast so kindly, there at the close of day, that I would imagine it as being laid, like a brown velvet cushion, against-as being thrust into the pallid sky which had yielded beneath its pressure, had sunk slightly so as to make room for it, and had correspondingly risen on either side;" Moncreiff


Kalliope Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This is a new way for me to read."

Reading to a schedule, and with a group, is new and challenging for me too. I am making an effort to keep up with the discussions and I appreci..."


Wonderful example. La recherche must be both a nightmare and an absolute delight for translators.


message 125: by [deleted user] (new)

Another thing about the steeple: there was a sentence that I can't recall exactly but something about 12 points of sunshine at noon. I will try to find the quote, but I wondered if the steeples were designed to have equal lighting all around at high noon if that is even possible given the different positions of the sun during the year.


message 126: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Jeremy, here's an interesting video that can visually answer your questions regarding space and lighting. You can see how they designed it so that the church receives light from different angles, since light has a religious significance.

http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/t...


Karen· (kmoll) | 318 comments Like Kal, and others too perhaps, I find myself revisiting passages I've already read in view of comments here that give me the distinct impression I may have missed something the first time round - an impression that is hardly to be avoided with such abundant riches.

Today I listened (twice!) to this talk by Professor Wood of Princeton:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/...

He reads A La Recherche as very much centred around the relationship between art and life, between the artist and the social being in 'normal' life, and whether they have any bearing on each other.

And then as I was re-reading the passage at Oncle Adolphe's with the lady in pink, I found new resonances all over again:

It comes in the part where they go into the 'office' and Adolphe offers her cigarettes. Then she remembers that she does know this young man's father and that he'd been quite exquisite to her. The narrator cannot imagine how that tallies with the coldness that he imagines his father would have treated her with. And then he compares these ladies of leisure and study with artists.

".. elles consacrent leur générosité, leur talent, un reve disponible de beauté sentimentale - car, comme les artistes, elles ne le réalisent pas, ne le font pas entrer dans les cadres de l'existence commune - et un or qui leur coute peu, à enrichir d'un sertissage précieux et fin la vie fruste et dégrossie des hommes."

He sees what these ladies of luxury do as comparable with the work of an artist; to give a precious setting to men's rough lives, to enrich their lives with jewels - or the dream of them. They use a gold - a precious metal to most, but a material that costs them nothing.


message 128: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Karen wrote: "Like Kal, and others too perhaps, I find myself revisiting passages I've already read in view of comments here that give me the distinct impression I may have missed something the first time round ..."

I downloaded the two available audios and will be listening to them in a minute. Thank you. I see A La Recherche as a cathedral holding all these relationships and details.


message 129: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Jeremy wrote: "Another thing about the steeple: there was a sentence that I can't recall exactly but something about 12 points of sunshine at noon. I will try to find the quote, but I wondered if the steeples w..."

BTW, Jeremy, the link I gave you doesn't really answer your question, but is fascinating regarding light. I'm trying to find anything resembling the passage you said, but haven't been able to locate it. I can't really try to answer your question until I see the context.


Marcelita Swann | 1135 comments Aloha wrote: "John Ruskin's influence on Proust's thoughts on Gothic architecture:

Proust was influenced by the art critic John Ruskin, who went in detail about gothic architecture. In his essay, The Nature of..."


Love Ruskin?
Then, listen.
The life and work of one of the most influential figures of the Victorian era. With guests Dinah Birch, Stephan Collini and Keith Hanley. BBC Radio 4 on Thu, 31 Mar 05.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/r...


message 131: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Marcelita wrote: "Aloha wrote: "John Ruskin's influence on Proust's thoughts on Gothic architecture:

Proust was influenced by the art critic John Ruskin, who went in detail about gothic architecture. In his essay,..."


Terrific! Thanks, Marcelita.


Marcelita Swann | 1135 comments Kalliope wrote: "On Gothic architecture and its structure (copied from Auxiliary read thread - I do not know how to "move", I am repeating then).
--------------

Aloha wrote: "Proust was influenced by the art criti..."


Gothic architecture? Mapping Gothic .org
http://pinterest.com/pin/260997740876...


message 133: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Gothic architecture and its structure (copied from Auxiliary read thread - I do not know how to "move", I am repeating then).
--------------

Aloha wrote: "Proust was influenced..."


LOL! you are a surfing wonder. I subscribed to the BBC podcast. Everything there looks great.


message 134: by [deleted user] (new)

Aloha wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Another thing about the steeple: there was a sentence that I can't recall exactly but something about 12 points of sunshine at noon. I will try to find the quote, but I wondered if..."

Thanks for even trying! (and I'll watch that video as soon as I am on a computer that will allow streaming!!) I knew it was tough without the actual quote...let's see if I cand find that...why didn't I highlight it?!


message 135: by Luke (new) - rated it 5 stars

Luke (korrick) Never have I been more grateful for the church architecture section of my medieval art class, than right at this particular section of Proust.


message 136: by [deleted user] (new)

I found it! I almost missed it again in my scanning (but also re-read a few passages which is very satisfying especially after reading these posts).

This is from p96 in the ML edition:

"But - especially after the fine weather had definitely set in at Combray - the proud hour of noon, descending from the steeple of Satint-Hilaire which it blazoned for a moment with the twelve points of its sonorous crown...."


message 137: by Ned (new) - added it

Ned (nedflanders) | 8 comments Karen wrote: "He sees what these ladies of luxury do as comparable with the work of an artist; to give a precious setting to men's rough lives, to enrich their lives with jewels - or the dream of them. They use a gold - a precious metal to most, but a material that costs them nothing. "

This is a great insight; Proust has reworked the raw materials of his life into the gem of his novel.


Kalliope Karen wrote: "Like Kal, and others too perhaps, I find myself revisiting passages I've already read in view of comments here that give me the distinct impression I may have missed something the first time round ..."

I just downloaded the two episodes (Rite of Spring and Swann's Way). Will listen to them later on.

I liked a great deal the episode of the Narrator and the Oncle and the Lady in Pink, but the particular extract you mention I found it very elusive.


message 139: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Jeremy, here it is in French:

“Mais (surtout à partir du moment où les beaux jours s’installaient à Combray) il y avait bien longtemps que l’heure altière de midi, descendue de la tour de Saint-Hilaire qu’elle armoriait des douze fleurons momentanés de sa couronne sonore, avait retenti autour de notre table, auprès du pain bénit venu lui aussi familièrement en sortant de l’église, quand nous étions encore assis devant les assiettes des Mille et une Nuits,”

I take it to mean the twelve hours of time shining down from the steeple. He's combining time with the symbolism of the steeple. The steeple is wearing the crown of time, basically. Further back, he had mentioned the symbology of the steeple and how important it is.


message 140: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha BTW, the ML "Arabian Nights" is "Mile et une Nuits", which is "a thousand and one nights", which is a better term fitting with time than "Arabian Nights."


message 141: by [deleted user] (new)

I may have neglected to mention that my 2 years of high school french barely (if at all) qualifies me to read Good Night Moon never mind Proust! But it is still always mesmerizing to see it in another language.

I'm understanding some of the symbolism but I am having a hard time with how the steeple becomes a symbol for time. Can the crown also have a religious meaning?


message 142: by Nick (last edited Jan 09, 2013 01:23PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nick Wellings | 322 comments Some members may be interested to know that I have uploaded some pics I took of Combray, (and more Proust related ones) into our Photos section of the Group. I have some of the Pre-Catalan too, which gives an indication of how Tansonville, and Proust's imaginary garden of Combray may have looked. So too, we must remember that Auteuil may have exerted a stronger memory on P than Illiers, as Proust only summered there a few times. But the memories must have been very strong. The provincial setting lends itself better to Proust's project than does Auteuil.

Link to our album: http://www.goodreads.com/photo/group/...

In my minds eye, the quote above about the hours shining down, illustrates the scene in a bright sunlight, perhaps summery, with no (or little shadow). I saw it as establishing texture of the place, by virtue of lighting it in a specific way. However, establising the steeple as a figure of temporality (both as a temporal and geographical anchor and a proud display of time incarnate - time ticking on a clock tower - and time as worn down stone) also seems right.


message 143: by Aloha (last edited Jan 09, 2013 01:24PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Here are some quotes about the steeple (ML):

“And certainly every part of the church that one saw distinguished it from any other building by a kind of innate thoughtfulness, but it was in its steeple that it seemed most truly to find itself, to affirm its individual and responsible existence. It was the steeple that spoke for the church. I think, too, that in a confused way my grandmother found in the steeple of Combray what she prized above anything else in the world, namely, a natural air and an air of distinction.”

“It was the steeple of Saint-Hilaire that shaped and crowned and consecrated every occupation, every hour of the day, every view in the town”

Based on that, the steeple seems to represent the spiritual root of the whole town. I think Proust is painting it as a living organism crowned by the sun of time. A crown is for royalty. The steeple represents the pinnacle of the spirit. My take, anyway.


message 144: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Nick wrote: "Some members may be interested to know that I have uploaded some pics I took of Combray, (and more Proust related ones) into our Photos section of the Group. I have some of the Pre-Catalan too, whi..."

Thank you, Nick. i'll take a look.


Kalliope Aloha wrote: "Jeremy, here it is in French:

“Mais (surtout à partir du moment où les beaux jours s’installaient à Combray) il y avait bien longtemps que l’heure altière de midi, descendue de la tour de Saint-Hi..."


I think this section is also referring to the bells in the tower (which is a "clocher" but with a "flèche" -- the steeple proper) striking twelve, hence the "sonore" and "retenti" and "momentané", but I am not sure because I cannot find the extract...


message 146: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Jeremy, here it is in French:

“Mais (surtout à partir du moment où les beaux jours s’installaient à Combray) il y avait bien longtemps que l’heure altière de midi, descendue de la to..."


That's because the clock strikes twelve times at noon, combined with the religious flavor of breaking bread.


ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments Jeremy wrote: "I may have neglected to mention that my 2 years of high school french barely (if at all) qualifies me to read Good Night Moon never mind Proust! But it is still always mesmerizing to see it in anot..."

That's funny Jeremy.


Kalliope Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Jeremy, here it is in French:

“Mais (surtout à partir du moment où les beaux jours s’installaient à Combray) il y avait bien longtemps que l’heure altière de midi, d..."


I understand that the clock strikes twelve. What I mean is that the objects "fleurons" and "couronne" in the passage would be figurative and that would be formed by only the sound of the bells striking twelve. He would be making a heraldic image out of sound.

But I still have to find the extract in my book to be certain.

I need to reread the whole church section again and pull it back together in my mind.


message 149: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Kalliope, here's the complete sentence in French and English (ML).

"Mais (surtout à partir du moment où les beaux jours s’installaient à Combray) il y avait bien longtemps que l’heure altière de midi, descendue de la tour de Saint-Hilaire qu’elle armoriait des douze fleurons momentanés de sa couronne sonore, avait retenti autour de notre table, auprès du pain bénit venu lui aussi familièrement en sortant de l’église, quand nous étions encore assis devant les assiettes des Mille et une Nuits, appesantis par la chaleur et surtout par le repas."

"But—especially after the fine weather had definitely set in at Combray—the proud hour of noon, descending from the steeple of Saint-Hilaire which it blazoned for a moment with the twelve points of its sonorous crown, would long have echoed about our table, beside the blessed bread which too had come in, after church, in its familiar way, and we would still be seated in front of our Arabian Nights plates, weighed down by the heat of the day, and even more by our heavy meal."

My take on this based on my limited French:
The ML translation said "weather". I take "beaux jours" meaning a fine day as in quality of day, instead of weather.

I see what you're talking about regarding sound. The tower of Saint-Hilaire "armoriait" or heralded with twelve moments of "fleurons" (jewels) from the crown of sound.

Eh, not graceful, but you get my idea in trying to closely match the wording without the poetic twist of the translation. So it is more about the sound rather than the sun's rays.


message 150: by Aloha (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha Jeremy, the "blazoned" in the ML translation, and was not in the original French text, confused you.


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