The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Sam wrote: "It's lovely reading along with all of you! I've been following the threads but this is my first post. As with many of the rest of you, I found myself struck by the passages concerning the steeple o..."

Well put, Sam. When we focus on one aspect, it doesn't mean that the novel is one dimensional. There are a lot of facets to it, as you can tell by the varying inputs. I'm impressed by how seamless he weaves the varying themes in.

ReemK10 wrote: "Eugene asked earlier on what words stood out to me: here's one particular phrase-

... characterized certain pretty, pious and unfeeling bourgeois ladies I saw at Mass, some of whom had long since been enrolled in the reserve militia of Injustice(83).

the reserve militia of injustice with a capital I"

Nice phrase. The narrator is making fun of the ladies at Mass; I would have expected more sarcasm like this expressed at the 'provincials' of Combray by a visiting family from Paris.

As you know Injustice is the subject of one of Giotto's frescos at Padua: a blind man with long nails & fangs and like everybody else pictured, unconcerned. Giotto (1266-1337) is considered the father of realist figure painting:

"Unlike those by Cimabue and Duccio, Giotto's figures are not stylized or elongated and do not follow set Byzantine models. They are solidly three-dimensional, have faces and gestures that are based on close observation, and are clothed not in swirling formalized drapery, but in garments that hang naturally and have form and weight." from Wikipedia

I'm really enjoying this read, these discussions...

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: "Eugene asked earlier on what words stood out to me: here's one particular phrase-

... characterized certain pretty, pious and unfeeling bourgeois ladies I saw at Mass, some of whom..."

Thanks for the background info Eugene. Honestly, I just liked the way it sounded regardless of the context behind it. I'd love to borrow the phrase one day to describe some people I don't particularly care for.

"Injustice is the only clearly identifiable male figure among the allegories: he wears a distinct facial hair, and sits in a masculine posture. His eyes are covered — the man is blind — a feature that becomes characteristic of all Giotto’s vices to one degree or another: Despair appears dead altogether (her eyes are closed or downcast); Anger directs her head straight up, with her eyes also closed; Idolatry seems to have been born completely blind; Inconstancy and Foolishness look away; and, finally, Envy’s vision is blocked by the symbolical snake.
Giotto understood that the eyes and the gaze can be expressive psychological tools: his virtues look straight ahead, conveying honesty and truth, while the vices usually “avoid” eye contact, implying falsehood and deceit. By presenting them — their anthropomorphic carriers — as literally lacking vision, Giotto renders the eyes an allegorical agent as well, one suggesting the spiritual blindness of his fallacious protagonists."

Great stuff!

Valerie wrote: "what I loved so much in this section was the descriptions of the Narrator's pure pleasure in reading, which mirrored my own experience reading Proust."

Ditto! I loved the reading passage. Particularly interesting to me was the bit about emotions:

"A real human being, however profoundly we sympathize with him, is in large part perceived by our senses, that is to say, remains opaque to us, presents a dead weight which our sensibility cannot lift.... The novelist's happy discovery was to have the idea of replacing these parts, impenetrable to the soul, by an equal quantity of immaterial parts that is to say, parts which our soul can assimilate..." (LD trans., page 86-87)

This made me think so much of Woolf's and Joyce's attempts to present the reader with their characters' pure thoughts. But also, it was just an elegant way of phrasing what all who read for pleasure know- that through reading we can see into others in a way that real life forbids, expanding our understandings and sympathies.

I would be interested to hear what others thought about the passage on reading in terms of ISOLT, modernism, and the value of literature in education today.

@Kalliope

Today I bought La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et notes de Marcel Proust from AbeBooks. I told you early on that there were but 12 copies worldwide & that may have been true for Rogers in 1965, my source of information. I really want to see how he translates Ruskin's 'evangelicalism,' a person who can write 10 pages on a Catholic church & mention "God" once & neither be laudatory or hostile.

Aloha wrote: "Kalliope, here's the complete sentence in French and English (ML).

"Mais (surtout à partir du moment où les beaux jours s’installaient à Combray) il y avait bien longtemps que l’heure altière de m..."

Yes, thank you Aloha, that is my interpretation.

The bells for the Narrator become the heraldic (armoirie - blazon) accoutrements, or the fleurons (not quite a jewel but an adornment inspired in fleures/flowers as found in heraldry), that form a couronne/crown which is sonore/that emits sounds that echoed (retentir) around their table.

As for “beaux jours” I also take them as referring to the fine weather.

Well, we are seeing how Proust wrote and why his work has become so famous!!!

@Jeremy,

Aloha and I love your questions. Feel free to pose more because we are having fun with this linguistically-detective work ..!!!

I love your questions, Jeremy. It's questions that make me want to investigate things further. It's also fun figuring out what the original language meant. Proust is a big jump in brushing up my French. I'm glad Kalliope is here to help. Kalliope, of course, why didn't I think of fleurons as the decorative touch, since I like to study art ornamentation. That is a common design in ornamentation.

Aloha wrote: "BTW, the ML "Arabian Nights" is "Mile et une Nuits", which is "a thousand and one nights", which is a better term fitting with time than "Arabian Nights.""

One thing that struck me when the "Arabian Nights" plates were described was that both stories mentioned (Ali Baba and Aladdin) were not in the original manuscript but added by the french translator Antoine Galland (he also left out all erotic parts). Is that a coincidence? I wonder.

Iselin, that tells me that we're at the mercy of the translators' ideas. Before getting deep into literature, I was oblivious to what translation I was reading. I should look at the Davis translation along with the ML to compare the Proust text. Too bad Davis didn't do the rest of the volumes. There's a lot to learn here. I love it!

Iselin wrote: "Aloha wrote: "BTW, the ML "Arabian Nights" is "Mile et une Nuits", which is "a thousand and one nights", which is a better term fitting with time than "Arabian Nights.""

One thing that struck me w..."

Very interesting point, because I remember being recommended by a friend to read the French translation by Mardrus, and keep away from any version in Spanish.

From the French Wiki on the Mardrus version:

Ayant connu la traduction remaniée et amoindrie en éléments, le docteur Joseph-Charles Mardrus, ami d'André Gide, publia une nouvelle traduction des Mille et Une Nuits en seize volumes de 1899 à 1904. Dans À la recherche du temps perdu de Marcel Proust, le narrateur, par exemple, évoque sa mère qui n'ose le priver de la traduction de Mardrus tout en lui conseillant de s'en tenir à celle de Galland8. La version de Mardrus, se voulait plus complète que celle de Galland et plus fidèle aux textes arabes. Elle traduit, par exemple les poèmes présents, fort nombreux, et qui étaient absents de la version de Galland. Cependant, sa version est fort peu fidèle au texte d'origine, en exacerbe l'exotisme et le faste. La traduction littérale, qui comprend également des pseudos-calques de la langue arabe, l'amène parfois aux non-sens, aux pléonasmes et aux lapalissades9. - comme c'est le cas pour le titre, Le Livre des mille nuits et une nuit10 – Sa traduction se caractérise par un style fleuri, un penchant pour l'orientalisme qui la pousse fréquemment vers le cliché et un érotisme débordant, absent de la version originale.

This Wiki pages now says that the recommended version in French is the newer one by Kawan.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mill...

Aloha wrote: "Iselin, that tells me that we're at the mercy of the translators' ideas. Before getting deep into literature, I was oblivious to what translation I was reading. I should look at the Davis transla..."

Aloha,

You may be interested in this book, written by Canadians linguists:

Stylistique Comparee Du Francais Et De L'anglais

Eugene wrote: "@Kalliope

Today I bought La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et notes de Marcel Proust from AbeBooks. I told you early on that there were but 12 copies worldwide & that may have been true for R..."

I bought La Bible d'Amiens in a new paperback edition cheaply. I found the Rogers you recommended in Abebooks (Iberlibro - which now belongs to Amazon) for about euros 29 including shipping costs..

I have not read either yet..!!

I am glad that good has come of my questions! And even though I will probably always struggle some with symbolism it makes more sense to see that the translation further confused me!

I suppose I could worry that I am going to lose a lot through translation but there is so much to be enjoyed regardless. Perhaps someday I will be fortunate to have the time to put the Rosetta Stone claims to test. But for now I will have to lean on you that do have that ability!

My first post of this thread claimed that it was a chore for me to read the cathedral description at the time. I don't take that back. Being able to discuss it, though, and further think about it brings it that much faster into perspective than had I just continued to charge forward into the next section. Even if there are dozens of other phrases that I did not capture the full meaning of it is worth the while to study the few. And why not leave something for the next time around? :)

Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Iselin, that tells me that we're at the mercy of the translators' ideas. Before getting deep into literature, I was oblivious to what translation I was reading. I should look at the..."

Thank you, Kalliope. I added it.

Jeremy wrote: "I am glad that good has come of my questions! And even though I will probably always struggle some with symbolism it makes more sense to see that the translation further confused me!

I suppose I ..."

I'm fascinated with the architecture and symbology, more than the human interaction. We can help each other out. :o)

Jeremy wrote: "I am glad that good has come of my questions! And even though I will probably always struggle some with symbolism it makes more sense to see that the translation further confused me!

I suppose I ..."

Jeremy, I also found the church description difficult and had to start adding in the margins the original subject to which some pronouns referred.

One more thing on the belltower and the crown of sounds (and after this comment I promise to shut up on this theme), is that it may have been the wish to evoke, without naming, the metallic sound of the bells that would explain Proust's choice of these heraldic images. This is apart from conjuring up the Middle Ages.

I was trying to think of how to describe the appreciation that is growing within me for this author and book. Then I recalled the Narrator's words and how fitting they are.

"For the first few days, like a tune with which one will soon be infatuated but which one has not yet "got hold of," the things I was to love so passionately in Bergotte's style did not immediately strike me. I could not, it is true, lay down the novel of his which I was reading, but I fancied that I was interested in the subject alone, as in the first dawn of love when we go every day to meet a woman at some party or entertainment which we think is in itself the attraction."

Toto wrote: "New to the group, but reading and following closely from Canada.

Previous posts about Proust and memory made me remember (!) an article in the Scientific American a while ago, which argued that re..."

I agree with that article, Toto, since that is how I'm able to outgrow unpleasant memories, and embrace new memories. I highly recommend the method of releasing memories that do not help in your personal growth. The secret to that is to take an active interest in better things. Best therapy rather than going to a therapist and constantly reliving unpleasant memories.

The memory in the Proust work focuses more on the active memory, the reproduction of memory in a poetic way, a play on the observations of the past. In this instance, there is always a strong connection to the rememberer at every moment of the reconstruction. There is a strange juxtaposition of the past, the present and the future. The past in retrieving details that inspire memory. The present in how the narrator compares the facts based on the present. The future in how the narrator would like the past to affect the hoped for or foretelling of the future.

And so this is why we read literature as if our lives depended on it:

"And once the novelist has put us in that state, in which, as in all purely internal states, every emotion is multiplied tenfold, in which his book will disturb us at might a dream but a dream more lucid than those we have while sleeping and whose memory will last longer, then see how he provokes in us within one hour all possible happinesses and all possible unhappinesses just a few of which we would spend years of our lives coming to know and the most intense of which never be revealed to us because of the slowness with which they occur prevents us from perceiving them (thus our heart changes, in life, and it is the worst pain, but we know it is only through reading, through our imagination: in reality it changes, as certain natural phenomena occur, slowly enough so that, if we are able to observe successively each of its different states, in return we are spared the actual sensation of change)."

( makes opera-like ahhhhhh sound)

What a beautiful passage. Thanks, Reem.

I love skimming over all the wonderfully perceptive comments on the reading. I wish I had the opportunity to join in the discussion a little more frequently, but I fear I will be swooping in and out from time to time with a series of short comments like these:

The flies have been mentioned -- those flies buzzing out a concert on the hot day -- as I read it this time, I was struck by the connection between the image of the sound and the presence. It is a simple contrast (in relation to the flies!) that will run throughout the Novel: this notion of reconstructing an actual presence.

All the discussion of the church is very evocative; and I think people are grasping the significance of the description (I don't think Proust ever has any meaningless digressions, no matter how they appear on the first reading, all pulls together by the end): I just want to throw in a great American work that I love and have found helpful in relation to French cathedrals: Henry Adams' Mont St-Michel and Chartres. It features some beautiful writing, some great descriptions, and a good smattering of history and legend.

Finally, I just want to write that I find the section on reading in the garden, with its wonderful discussion of the image, to be utterly captivating. I want to keep reading it and reading it and reading it.

Reem, the quote on reading brings to mind the wonderful section on miniature in The Poetics of Space, which I highly recommend to put you in the mood for Proust.

"...with regard to these literary "miniatures,"
these objects that are so easily made smaller through
literary means? Is it possible for the conscious-of both
writer and reader-to play a sincere role in the very origin
of images of this kind?...

...if we follow the poets of miniature sympathetically, if we take the imprisoned painter's little train, geometrical contradiction is redeemed, and Representation is dominated by Imagination. Representation becomes nothing but a body of expressions with which to communicate our own images to others. In line with a philosophy that accepts the imagination as a basic faculty, one could say, in the manner of Schopenhauer: "The world is my imagination." The cleverer I am at miniaturizing the world, the better I possess it. But in doing this, it must be understood that values become condensed and enriched in miniature. Platonic dialectics of large and small do not suffice for us to become cognizant of the dynamic virtues of miniature thinking. One must go beyond logic in order to experience what is large in what is small.

Thus the minuscule, a narrow gate, opens up an entire world. The details of a thing can be the sign of a new world which, like all worlds, contains the attributes of greatness....

To use a magnifying glass is to pay attention, but isn't paying attention already having a magnifying glass? Attention by itself is an enlarging glass...

Intuitionists, in fact, take in everything at one glance, while details reveal themselves and patiently take their places, one after the other, with the discursive impishness of the clever miniaturist...

Naturally, miniature is easier to tell than to do, and it is not hard to find literary descriptions that put the world in the diminutive. But because these descriptions tell things in tiny detail, they are automatically verbose...."

Cassian wrote: "I love skimming over all the wonderfully perceptive comments on the reading. I wish I had the opportunity to join in the discussion a little more frequently, but I fear I will be swooping in and ou..."

Once you get into it, the words in ISOLT are really wonderful and evocative. I'm adding Mont-Saint-Michel and Chartres into my list to read. Thank you.

Aloha wrote: "Reem, the quote on reading brings to mind the wonderful section on miniature in The Poetics of Space, which I highly recommend to put you in the mood for Proust.

"...with regard to these literary ..."

I'll look forward to this part in my reading.
I think the appeal of the reading in the garden section is that for readers like us, we tend to appreciate literature that is not of "doing" but is of " being".

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "I think the appeal of the reading in the garden section is that for readers like us, we tend to appreciate literature that is not of "doing" but is of " being". "

You managed to put in one sentence what it is, Reem.

Cassian wrote: "I love skimming over all the wonderfully perceptive comments on the reading. I wish I had the opportunity to join in the discussion a little more frequently, but I fear I will be swooping in and ou..."

I am also adding the Mont-Saint-Michel and Chartres to my TBR list.

Yes, the garden reading scene is wonderful. This one and a couple more of scenes I want to read before we move to next weeks section.

One sentence that struck me from the Lady in Pink, the friend of the uncle, when she is discussing whether the Narrator resembles his mother:

"Ce petit jeune homme a ses (de la mère) beaux jeux et aussi ça, dit-elle, en traçant avec son doigt une ligne sur le bas de son front. Est-ce que madame votre nièce porte le même nom que vous, ami?".

I had to read twice (thrice?) the sentence when she makes the sign on her brow. She must have been referring to the eyebrows of the Narrator.

Marcel Proust's eyebrows were striking for being thick and straight. Depending on the image his mother shows a similar feature.

Karen wrote: "Did Proust have an audience in mind when he was writing do you think?
"

I am sorry for not answering Proustitute’s invitation to answer on this earlier. My first response is that I do not know, but I will venture a couple of thoughts.

I would say that he must have had in mind the opinions of his friends and peers first and foremost. He moved in very literary and artistic circles. The exacting notions of these readers must have been clearly in his mind. I am thinking of Anatole France, his literary mentor (wrote the preface to his first published book, Le plaisir et les jours), but also friends such as Daudet, and Fénelon (both with famous literary ancestors), Montesquiou, Reynaldo Hahn, Jacques Rivière, (a long list of etceteras) …and in a somewhat more loose way, the editors and readers of the burgeoning literary magazines such as Le Mercure de France (more established), La revue blanche, and the one that was notoriously rising to the top position of literary magazines, the NRF with Gide -- which eventually became his chosen editor.

That he had these literary friends in mind is supported by the fact that, as there is so much autobiographical material in the novels, he took the trouble in his revisions to change details so as to make it more difficult for his friends to recognize themselves in the fictional characters.

But on a second more abstract and idealistic level, when Proust was writing La recherche he had changed his mind about the “public at large” that he desired. The publication of his first book in 1896 (mentioned above with France’s preface and illustrations by Madeleine (!) Lemaire), sold badly because it was an expensive precious book (a copy was sold recently by Christie’s for GBP 20,000). By the time of La recherche Proust had stopped fashioning himself as a dandy (even if had become more eccentric), and his dream was to see the “common people” reading his novels in the train. For La recherche he wanted cheap editions, to be distributed at large --what for us now would be an “airport book”. He was a romantic.

Proustitute wrote: "Aloha wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "I think the appeal of the reading in the garden section is that for readers like us, we tend to appreciate literature that is not of "doing" but is of " ..."

:)

Kalliope wrote: By the time of La recherche Proust had stopped fashioning himself as a dandy (even if had become more eccentric), and his dream was to see the “common people” reading his novels in the train. For La recherche he wanted cheap editions, to be distributed at large --what for us now would be an “airport book”. He was a romantic."

Judging by the 700+ souls who signed on to read ISOLT over the period of a year, Proust succeeded in making his work intriguingly accessible to many of us.

I sat down on Sunday to begin reading this week's segment...became lost in Proust's poetic world...and surfaced I don't know how much later having completed the section. My experience of reading reminded me of his description of a steeple being designated as a compass in an unfamiliar neighborhood, he stands mesmerized, transported by his memory for who knows how many hours before he's once again on his way.

So far I have found ISOLT to be a brilliantly profound fairytale, a time travel, an exotic ride through 1001 nights, a kaleidoscope...a sort of entree into the "church" of Proust. His words have seeped into my consciousness in the sense of his world coming to vivid life - inspiring my own images and perhaps memories, or maybe a weaving of my own alternate life...ironically his torrent of words tapping my brain where language doesn't exist. I have the same meditational, non-verbal sense I find when I draw or create.

As I closed the book on Sunday my overriding sense of Proust was that he was a romantic. There was one small statement he made about his Aunt Leonie and the taste of dead leaves and faded blossoms (in her tea/tisane)...after pages of delicious description of her self-confinement there was that one luminous jewel.

There's much room for intellectual parsing, auxiliary reads, plumbing the depth of Proust's heady metaphors...but I'm also discovering the beauty of surrender, suspension of self, turning off the chatter in my head, and simply immersing myself in the discovery and exploration of another universe. It's a bit frightening to go along for the ride...Proust seems to be adept at weaving a web and casting a spell...and I have these moments of wanting to regain control.

Somewhere there was mention of reading as collaborative - solitary reading as recent - I think perhaps stemming from oral traditions that are much older in the human race than written word...and the relatively recent ability of the masses to read. But I have to confess I nearly broke out in hives at the thought! ;-D I am happy to be a member of this group. I've enjoyed insights, references...different perspectives. And I am also finding I relish the reading in a solitary sense.

I'm curious how this will evolve...and if I will eventually unearth my usually very vocal self in the process!

Edited to note it was Kalliope's quote at the beginning.

Cheryl wrote: "Kalliope wrote: By the time of La recherche Proust had stopped fashioning himself as a dandy (even if had become more eccentric), and his dream was to see the “common people” reading his novels in ..."

Very nicely written..!!!

Cheryl wrote: "Kalliope wrote: By the time of La recherche Proust had stopped fashioning himself as a dandy (even if had become more eccentric), and his dream was to see the “common people” reading his novels in ..."

Beautiful, Cheryl!

Kalliope wrote: "Karen wrote: "Did Proust have an audience in mind when he was writing do you think?
"

I am sorry for not answering Proustitute’s invitation to answer on this earlier. My first response is that ..."

I think there are sections, where Proust writes about a work creating its own audience, that suggests he knew his work would do the same.

Cheryl wrote: "Somewhere there was mention of reading as collaborative - solitary reading as recent - I think perhaps stemming from oral traditions that are much older in the human race than written word...and the relatively recent ability of the masses to read."

This reminded me of the Arabic storyteller or Hakawati. I found a youtube video of Abu Shady who is the last of his kind, telling a part of his nightly stories in the vein of the 1001 Nights at the famous An-Nawfara Cafe in the Old City of Damascus, Syria. I thought you might be curious to see the video. An audio book if you will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-wqi...

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "This reminded me of the Arabic storyteller or Hakawati. I found a youtube video of Abu Shady who is the last of his kind, telling a part of his nightly stories in the vein of the 1001 Nights at the famous An-Nawfara Cafe in the Old City of Damascus, Syria. I thought you might be curious to see the video. An audio book if you will."

Delightful! Thank you for posting this.

Entirely off the topic of this thread Abu Shady reminded me when he was making grand gestures and using single words in English, French, etc...of the fluid communication, subtle gestures and exaggerated pantomime we are currently experiencing as a crew of guys most of whom don't speak English work on a complicated construction project in our home. They have been here for 4 months and our communication has flourished. We are now freely sharing jokes (a huge leap)and less often are any of us asking the one English speaker to translate. Each day's communication has built on the last until we now have a multi-layered complex shared "language". We've all lost our shyness at making a fool of ourselves...and built tremendous trust and friendship along the way. My husband and I agreed last night that this has grown beyond a crew working on the house...we can no longer imagine our life without their presence. It's fundamentally altered us.

Maybe this isn't as off topic as I thought...Proust weaves the same web...layer upon layer...until our world merges with his. I can no longer tell where I leave off and he begins...and have begun to trust him to take me on this journey...a journey that has barely begun. Not to mention the friendships we will all develop if we travel the whole year with Proust.

Again, thank you ReemK10

Cheryl wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "This reminded me of the Arabic storyteller or Hakawati. I found a youtube video of Abu Shady who is the last of his kind, telling a part of his nightly stories in the ..."

I couldn't ask for a more perfect response! Thank you for sharing your story with us. You must commit to being an active member of this group because it is a joy to read your comments.

I have a feeling that 2013: the year for reading Proust on Goodreads will serve as a place of refuge for us all. Cheers to all!

ReemK10 wrote: "And so this is why we read literature as if our lives depended on it:"

And quoted a lovely & long sentence by Marcel Proust,

'And once the novelist has put us in that state, in which, as in all purely internal states, every emotion is multiplied tenfold, in which his book will disturb us...'

In fact it is 165 words & as pithy as it is, as beautiful as it is, I wonder if he started the sentence with a capital letter and ended it with a period getting it down in one take or did he revise it; only Proust would know.

I suspect he did revise it and my burning question is how did he edit it, what did previous versions say, in other words, how did he write it and more generally, he being such a genius, how did he write.

Carter's bio speaks of his seemingly, to his typists, to his printers, to his publishers, 'endless' revisions of ISOLT but as far as I remember Carter does not speak specifically of what Proust revises; is it structure, is it syntax...probably both but I don't recall & don't think he cites examples.

What I'm looking for are early versions of published sentences in ISOLT. We have versions of the 'Madeline Moment' between his now published work, 1st it was dry toast, then it became a madeleine, etc. But I'm looking for his crossing out something and adding something else; I'm looking for his edits.

Would the edits be in Proust's Cahiers & if so, in which ones, I don't want to buy them blindly as they are dear even used. Perhaps someone could guide me, Nick, Kalliope...? And before that I'd love something in English that covers this revision topic that questions me.

I hope the coming exhibition at the Morgan can provides some answers,

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/...

"...with a fascinating selection of the author's notebooks, preliminary drafts, galley-proofs, and other documents from the collection of the Bibliothèque Nationale de France."

Proustitute wrote: "What struck me most in this week's reading was the narrator's immersion in Bergotte, mostly as it is mirroring our own year-long immersion into Proust's work. As a few of you said above, it's about..."

I'm glad you mentioned Bergotte, who was influential in the Narrator's development. There wasnt much discussion about him here, although I did mention him at the beginning of this thread. Another thing to note is Proust's interest in his world of art, literature and high society, and has an uncanny ability to imitate some of its inhabitants. The Lemoine Affair is a good auxiliary read to see that.

Proustitute wrote: "I definitely agree that any serious Proust-ers here should read The Lemoine Affair.

One thing that I forgot to mention earlier which interested me is this idea of "ordinary" people having artistic..."

Keep note of M. Legrandin for Proust's satirical side.

Proustitute wrote: "P.S. Sorry for being a bad group leader this week and only catching up now. Life has been kind of crazy."

Fishing for compliments? Here they come:

I'm sure most of us realise that real life can get in the way of The Year of Reading Threads in the Proust Discussion Group.

But first you have some excellent vice-presidents in Aloha and Kal. And my apologies to anyone else who's a moderator and I haven't mentioned, but you too, you too.

And second, you (all the mods) have done what is probably much more important than contributing to the discussion yourselves (and that's not to denigrate those contributions). You have made everyone feel welcome with a warm word, and taken the time to reassure them that their comments are valuable, taken up questions and queries, in short, taken us all seriously.

Proust is daunting, in any language his prose is a stretch. And this discussion group could have turned into something equally daunting, Pseud's Corner, with those who are more knowledgeable taking the floor and everyone else cowed into silence. I really appreciate the warm, welcoming atmosphere here, and being taken for the full shilling.
And thank you for conveying your own enthusiasm. This is the third time in my life that I've read Combray. The first twice was always for some university course that I was on at the time, and was always a slog to get through it in time for the seminar, rushing it. This is the first time that I'm just doing it for my own enjoyment and taking the time to go back and re-read passages, and I'm loving it.

Kalliope wrote: "Well, I have to say that with this description of the Church at Combray, I have finally encountered the Proust that I was dreading. I have had to trace back my reading several times so as to be ab..."

I loved the description, and posted two sentences to FB to comment on how beautiful and evocative it was but those two sentences were about a paragraphy and - like you say - tracking back the sentences with all the commas is quite distracting. I've often had to reread a passage a few times as you lose where you are. Especially on kindle. The passage about the pregnant kitchen girl and his narration on some Muse pictures he has goes a little off on a tangent too; not that his whole book isn't a tangent!! The church passage was particularly picturesque, but hard reading!

I've not read all the posts on here, has anyone worked out how old the boy is? I've read ISOLT before but can't recall working it out then either... do we know his name? I'm sure it's mentioned but I don't recall. He must be a young teen, becoming aware of women and dreaming of being with them. I wonder whether there are a few very gentile euphemisms in narration sometimes for his wmotional arousal (he uses the word arousal a lot) at his thoughts of these elusive angelic creatures - which he sees women as. Or perhaps he's older?

Helen wrote: "I've not read all the posts on here, has anyone worked out how old the boy is? I've read ISOLT before but can't recall working it out then either... do we know his name? I'm sure it's mentioned b..."

In the last weeks thread, check the comments #53 and #63 by Proustitute on January 1st. Then I also posted something when I went back and traced the shifts at the very beginning (#298 - Jan 6th) with a couple of replies from Fionnuala (#301) and from Proustitute (#313), both from the same day.

I think the consensus is there different moments are evoked from different ages. At least at this early stage of the book.

And so far, no The Narrator has no name, and that is why we refer to him as such, in capital letter, in this Group.

Karen wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "P.S. Sorry for being a bad group leader this week and only catching up now. Life has been kind of crazy."

Fishing for compliments? Here they come:

I'm sure most of us realise ..."

Thank you for the compliments, but you are also a very welcomed contributor. Having read it two times already, and being a linguist, I have to admit that I am always a bit afraid of your comments...!!! LOL...!

Kalliope wrote: "Karen wrote: "Did Proust have an audience in mind when he was writing do you think?
"

I am sorry for not answering Proustitute’s invitation to answer on this earlier. My first response is that ..."

Thanks for taking the time to give such a full and interesting answer.

My interest in this question was piqued (again) recently by the series of programmes on BBC radio 4 on the value of culture, which are available for download here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/...
There was a comment in one of them about that inescapable fact that for the longest time, producers of 'culture' either came from, or were paid by the elite, and were producing for the elite.
Which also reminded me of Bourdieu and his theory of the literary field, and the competition for cultural legitimation. That writers, for example, are basically competing with each other on the literary field for recognition, and this recognition can come in the form of acceptance and thus prestige from their literary contemporaries, or in the form of financial success (less prestigious, obviously!) I hope I'm not over-simplifying Bourdieu too criminally.
And set up reverberations with my pre-occupation with Dickens (sorry to drag him in) in that the very fact that he, Dickens, enjoyed mass popularity meant that he was not taken as a serious literary author until his manuscripts were examined and it was found that he actually took a lot of care over his writing, altering and planning and correcting, didn't just toss off 32 pages to fill copy. It was not believed that anyone who wrote for the masses could be producing something that was culturally valuable.

So that I was wondering if Proust had kind of set up camp in the high culture field, striving for recognition by his circle.

It's fascinating to see that Proust wanted his books to be reasonably priced, too. Hedging his bets?

And I love Cassian's comment about his book creating its own audience.

Kalliope wrote: "One sentence that struck me from the Lady in Pink, the friend of the uncle, when she is discussing whether the Narrator resembles his mother:

"Ce petit jeune homme a ses (de la mère) beaux jeux et aussi ca, dit elle, en tracant avic son doigt une ligne sur le bas de son front."

I stumbled over that one too!
I misread it at first, thinking that she traced her finger over the Narrator's forehead, but then he would have said mon front. So she must have made the gesture over her own forehead. I think you must be right, that she was making a reference to the very distinctive eyebrows.

Kalliope wrote: "Having read it two times already.."

Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings: I've never managed beyond Du Coté de Chez Swann at all, and it's only the very first part, Combray that I've read twice before. And one of those was thirty years ago.

Was that a humblebrag?

The magical thing about this book for me is rereading it and seeing just how much I missed the first time around, and that Proust himself seems to agree with my last post when he clearly states how we give power to things by giving them names.
But the most effective part of this section...and this shows what a magnificent writer Proust was in terms of construction...is the shifting sequences which begin with the Church at Combray. When earlier posters talk about how Marcel must have kept notebooks and associates these concrete objects with so many feelings and emotions, his rhapsodic description of the Church is proof positive of this. But for all his filling the Church with warm memories of childhood, it doesn't appear to have any SPIRITUAL significance for him. What does have spiritual significance, in the sense of being initiated into a mystery, of discovering something new and deeper, is his visit to his uncle's house where he meets the mysterious woman. Much more than his experiences described thus far with Swann, Marcel now begins to grasp a more complex world, one of more conflicts and uncertainties and deeper pleasures and fears. And what links these two together is the almost comic sequence with Marcel's aunt, a person who is sort of a mundane, realistic God, a God for Marcel's conception of the world, someone who demands omnipotence but over the minutiae of things.
And when Marcel discusses how books teaches us about life and then goes straight into Bergotte...it's one of the clearest indications of how much he wants to fill even the tiny parts of his past with poetic power. This juxtaposition also cannot be a coincidence.

Andrew wrote: "The magical thing about this book for me is rereading it and seeing just how much I missed the first time around, and that Proust himself seems to agree with my last post when he clearly states how..."

Terrific post on the significance of the church, Andrew, which has more of a secular spiritualism. These are opposing terms, but, to me, apropos of the metaphysical feel of the relationships between people and objects.

Karen wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "P.S. Sorry for being a bad group leader this week and only catching up now. Life has been kind of crazy."

Fishing for compliments? Here they come:

I'm sure most of us realise ..."

Thank you, Karen, for the very warm post. What can I say but *hugs*. I hope that more people will feel encouraged to chip in with their impressions. Then us mods will let you talk amongst yourselves and don't have to post a bunch of erudite info. :o)