The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Kalliope wrote: "I think the consensus is that different moments are evoked from different ages. At least at this early stage of the book."

I agree but sometimes he puts down definite time markers: the episode with the woman in pink at his grandfather's uncle's apartment in Paris clearly happened some years before some of the Combray interludes since we are told that the uncle's room there, which the narrator used to enjoy visiting, has now been shut up for some time, in fact since the final falling out between the family and the uncle, caused, let us not forget, by the Narrator's mysterious, at least to me, inability to keep secret his encounter with the woman in pink even though he had no difficulty disguising from his parents his intention to visit his uncle in his Paris apartment on a day when he might have a chance of meeting such a person, and while he was clearly quite young at that time, as he had not yet been allowed to attend the theatre, he was old enough to realise that even though all women start out on an equal footing from a morality point of view, some, for reasons he is beginning to probe, lose that status and must remain outside of conventional society comme une jeune fille de bonne famille, qui n'était plus d'aucune famille.
Interestingly, after the Narrator recounts this episode, he reverts immediately to a vaguer time frame and mentions how the kitchen maids changed from year to year, implying that the memories associated with Combray happened over a space of many years.
(I think Proust's vertiginous use of commas is beginning to rub off on me)

Cassian wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Karen wrote: "Did Proust have an audience in mind when he was writing do you think?
"
I think there are sections, where Proust writes about a work creating its own audience, that suggests he knew his work would do the same.
."

Like Karen, I have liked your comment that P's books have create their own audience... And a cult too, and I am one of the recent converts...!!!

Karen writes: "But first you have some excellent vice-presidents in Aloha and Kal. And my apologies to anyone else who's a moderator and I haven't mentioned, but you too, you too.

And second, you (all the mods) have done what is probably much more important than contributing to the discussion yourselves (and that's not to denigrate those contributions). You have made everyone feel welcome with a warm word, and taken the time to reassure them that their comments are valuable, taken up questions and queries, in short, taken us all seriously. "

That is certainly true. We're lucky to have our moderators(Proust ambassadors) as well as very supportive members who always have encouraging and appreciative sentiments and assurances. It's as if no comment is shared in vain. This group is a class act. Feeling enlightened and exalted in your presence! :)

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I think the consensus is that different moments are evoked from different ages. At least at this early stage of the book."

I agree but sometimes he puts down definite time markers..."

Fionnuala, you are becoming a true Proustian and are also beginning to write masterly literary parodies...!

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Karen writes: "But first you have some excellent vice-presidents in Aloha and Kal. And my apologies to anyone else who's a moderator and I haven't mentioned, but you too, you too.

And second, you ..."

Thank you, Reem. *hugs*

Eugene wrote: "What I'm looking for are early versions of published sentences in ISOLT. We have versions of the 'Madeline Moment' between his now published work, 1st it was dry toast, then it became a madeleine, etc. But I'm looking for his crossing out something and adding something else; I'm looking for his edits."

Eugene, so far I have not been successful in my search.

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Karen writes: "But first you have some excellent vice-presidents in Aloha and Kal. And my apologies to anyone else who's a moderator and I haven't mentioned, but you too, you too.

And second, you ..."

Thank you, ReemK10... This is a fun group because everyone has something to discover. Certainly those of us for whom this is a first read, but the veterans are also seeing new things, or different aspects... the text is so rich.

I love your avatar picture....!!!

Proustitute wrote: "P.S. Sorry for being a bad group leader this week and only catching up now. Life has been kind of crazy."

IMHO, no need to apologize. If we are all to sustain this process for a year there must be room for life...crazy or not! ;-)

Thank you to the group leaders and moderators for organizing this so ably...and launching it...I have all of you to thank for the pleasure and anticipation of the coming year.

(Eugene, the Morgan will be interesting, if they give transcripts/translations of what Proust has written, but I am not sure how many galleys or what-have-you they'll put up. I hope to be going to the exhibit in April, so I'm interested in what's in store.

If you recall, we mentioned Pugh in another thread, and his "The Growth of ALRDTP" I have a paper of his out of Modern Philology journal called The "Ending of Swann Revisited" where, based on genetic/"textural archaeology" Pugh gives us a new way of reading the ending of SW closer to Proust's original intentions. For my read this year, I am going to try it. The reason I am telling you this is in case you find the approach engaging. This genetic approach has been popular for a while now in Proust studies. I would suggest Pugh again to you, but it would be scholarly and dry.

You might be interested in Proust's Additions: The Making of 'a La Recherche Du Temps Perdu'Proust's Additions: The Making of 'a La Recherche Du Temps Perdu' however, it is about 30 years old, and I am unable to say what it is like, as I cannot afford to buy a copy. It was made just on the cusp of when genetic study was becoming popular I think. However, hers is about additions, not revisions, it seems. I have yet to read it though.


Also:
Textual Awareness: A Genetic Study of Late Manuscripts by Joyce, Proust, and Mann
might help.


I can't think of any other book length treatments, but there are articles in books that might interest you eg "Proust ou l'écriture vagabonde. À propos de la genèse de la “matinée” dans La Prisonnière " by Gressilon and Milly's article on genetic study and editorial decisions in Albertine Disparue, both of which are in Marcel Proust: Ecrire sans fin [by CNRS] [yes that's the same Milly as Phrase de Proust and Proust et le style]

I really think the Cahiers would be a good read for you. Here is one courtesy of BNF: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...
If you press the mag glass you can zoom in with the mousewheel. You can have a lot of fun deciphering P's handwriting. Turn the page a few times for a cute little Proustian doodle of a figure, like the ones he send friends and Reynaldo sometimes.

I have just bought Houston's Shape and Style of Proust's Novel, a book which may also interest you on a wider level.

We cannot get too far back into the start of Proust's work as Celeste destroyed a lot of the big black exercise books that had the proper germ-ideas of the text, before she and the household and Proust moved to Rue Laurent-Pichat, I think. However, we have the Cahiers, and Carter says P never destroyed anything unless it was written elsewhere, and unless it was totally un-needed.

If you want to chat on this, please let's goto auxillary reads thread or try and private message me. I do not know if we can if we are not friends.)

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "There is obviously an issue, possibly a very serious issue with memory, especially that of Proust's short term memory that factors into this novel that has me wondering if Proust ever kept any note..."

Yes, I agree. Minutes would have served the point better than hours without making the reader question his sanity.

Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Karen writes: "But first you have some excellent vice-presidents in Aloha and Kal. And my apologies to anyone else who's a moderator and I haven't mentioned, but you t..."

Thanks Kalliope! I thought this little backyard bird would make a perfect little tweety bird to tweet with when I joined Twitter six months ago, and went well with my quote, "The red- breast whistles from a garden-croft, And gathering swallows twitter in the skies." John Keats
I second what Cheryl said. I'm also grateful to have something to look forward to for an entire year.

Now, this may be a little far fetched but I'm going to throw it out there. Did anyone reading

" But now I found something shocking in this attitude of Swann's towards things. It appeared that he dared not have an opinion and was at his ease only when he could with meticulous accuracy offer some precise piece of information."(100)

think like I did that Charles Swann may exist in this story as the Narrator's alter ego or even polar opposite?

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "think like I did that Charles Swann may exist in this story as the Narrator's alter ego or even polar opposite? "

I think writers project parts of themselves into characters or their own interpretation of people they know. Here are a couple interesting links on Charles Haas, one of the inspiration for Charles Swann:

http://elirosswriter.wordpress.com/20...

http://www.billgladstone.ca/?p=1532

Nick wrote: "I really think the Cahiers would be a good read for you. Here is one courtesy of BNF: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...
If you press the mag glass you can zoom in with the mousewheel. You can have a lot of fun deciphering P's handwriting. Turn the page a few times for a cute little Proustian doodle of a figure, like the ones he send friends and Reynaldo sometimes...."

Thank you Nick. This was a gem! I cannot read the French (sadly so...my grandmother was French and did not speak English until she went to grade school)...but Proust's own unique script speaks eloquently. His editing so pervasive and wholesale...it's fascinating to see the visual evidence of the care he took in expressing himself (not that it is a surprise...but beautiful to witness in his hand). I relished the ink blots and at one point the change of color of ink. LOVED his fantastic charming doodle...a tiny little window into the man behind the words. Again, thank you.

Yes, it's neat isn't it! I had a glance through and felt pleased with myself that I made out some words and names. Not the easiest script to get along with. I think later Cahiers are a little harder as Proust developed bad eyestrain.

Anyway: when one considers that a single page of a Cahier or a single equisse had A LOT of crossing out, and yet still we've been left with 3000 pages! It puts Proust's prodigious output into perspective.

Proustitute wrote: "Now that I can use the site that Nick linked us to, I can't even decipher our friend Proust's handwriting, even with magnification on. Wow. "

LOL. I had the same problem. It's all scribbles to me. I can't believe it turned into a 4,000 pages novel.

I am glad you enjoyed, too Cheryl. I agree, it is a lovely insight into the world of Mr. Proust.

Further to my point above, about his output: if anyone here has ever tried to write with a dip pen and ink, you will know how maddening and slow it can be, where the words want to come quicker than the ink can sustain.

In a way it helps the creative process, but to a modern writer, it feels like a terrible impairment, cumbersome, effortful and punishing. When I think of that impediment (of a sort) and I think of Proust propped up in bed feverishly writing against the clock of his own predicted death, his incredible output (let's say ISOLT is a million words as published in English) is to me even more astonishing.

(Setting aside his incredible output of letters and his drafts, newspaper articles, unpublished works like Jean Santeuil. Which must total another million at least.)

He was a true "writer" and suffered greatly in the course of his art.



(Link has now been added, Proustitute. Good suggestion.)

Nick wrote: "if anyone here has ever tried to write with a dip pen and ink, you will know how maddening and slow it can be, where the words want to come quicker than the ink can sustain."

Two points:

1) Proust wrote in the era of the fountain pen, and fountain pens are much more suited to extended writing sessions than modern ball-point pens. They deliver ink onto the page via water tension. You don't have to press down with a fountain pen, which means less muscle strain over the long run.

2) I don't find dip pens cumbersome or punishing. If you have a decent nib and an ink that's made for dip pens (rather than fountain pens - fountain pen ink being much thinner), you can get a couple of lines down without redipping, and the process quickly becomes automatic.

I would be very interested to know what kind of pen Proust wrote with, if there's a record of it. (And what ink!)

Apropos to all the posts on memory and Proust, Marcelita posted a link to a wonderful Proust podcast in which there's a discussion on how Proust viewed involuntary memory and why it was important to him. Interestingly, he thought the involuntary memory is much more reliable and coherent than conscious memory. The link is in the Links on Proust thread but I post it here as well:

Marcelita wrote:
"Melvyn Bragg interviews Jacqueline Rose, Malcolm Bowie, and Dr Robert Fraser. Trust me...it is worth the time.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/r...

Even two lines with a dip is a bit of a punishment for me, Madame X :P I do like fountain pens as they "glide" and it is less strain indeed.

I think the Carnavlet exhibition (Proust's room re-creation) had some pens on his side-table.

I bet there's a precise study of his writing materials somewhere!

Edit to add: quick google search says: "As Marcel Proust's writing instruments were humble, so were his notebooks and papers where he scribbled down In Search of Lost Time, arguably the most significant novel of the 20th century. His Sergent-Major nibs were of the cheapest kind as were his pen holders."

http://writinginstruments.blogspot.co...

I think he got through a lot of 'em!

I'm popping in to say how wonderful the discussions on this thread have been, and how sorry I am that my first week back at work got in the way of my reading in time to participate. I'm caught up now, and I should be able to participate in next week's discussion, barring major work catastrophes.

Nick, thanks for posting the link -- it's wonderful to see Proust's writing. I think the cross outs and interpolations are harder for me to make out than the script itself (thank you paleography classes!). I loved the sketch on the bottom of one page.

I would love to hear the French spoken. Can anyone recommend an audio book of this in French?

Chris wrote: "I would love to hear the French spoken. Can anyone recommend an audio book of this in French?"

I just posted the audio version in 111 CDs in the Thread for the French version.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

If you are reading the novel in French, I invite you to check that thread periodically. The bulk of the discussions take place in these threads, because most members are reading it in English and in other languages as well. But that thread might have something specific to the French.

Nick wrote: "(Eugene, the Morgan will be interesting, if they give transcripts/translations of what Proust has written, but I am not sure how many galleys or what-have-you they'll put up. I hope to be going to ..."

This is a fantastic find Nick.

When Eugene requested this I thought:

When Eugene requested this I thought:

1. it entailed a HUGE task, since it meant dealing with the novel times a multiplier of considerable magnitude.

2. would only be available to professional researchers and specialists, who will be allowed to enter the BN in Paris, or any other archives, with white gloves.

3. Had to be done in French, and one would have to decipher his hand, which was notoriously hard. The printers sent back several of the cahiers because, simply, they could not read them.

In sum, the Project for several PhD theses.

And to answer to Proustitute, Carter gives an excellent account of the publication process, which included the process of revisions. He does not go into details regarding specific changes to sections. His book is a bio and the task would be enormous (above). What he mentions, though, is how important Céleste Albaret was for Proust in his later years, because she began acting as his secretary.

As his lengthy corrections and revisions could not fit in the margins of the Cahiers, she came up with the idea of sticking additional pieces of paper to those margins, which could then be unfolded and offer Proust the necessary space. Of course he was delighted with her idea. It seems that some of those paper margin additions unfold into several pages, in the three directions (top, bottom and one side) and can cover the entire floor of a room.

So, chapeau !!!, Nick.

Kris wrote: "I'm popping in to say how wonderful the discussions on this thread have been, and how sorry I am that my first week back at work got in the way of my reading in time to participate. I'm caught up n..."

We've missed you. Glad to see you here again...!!

Kalliope wrote: "Kris wrote: "I'm popping in to say how wonderful the discussions on this thread have been, and how sorry I am that my first week back at work got in the way of my reading in time to participate. I'..."

I've been corresponding with Kris privately so it seems she's always been here. But I would love to see her contributions to this thread. She always has terrific things to say.

Cheryl wrote: "Kalliope wrote: By the time of La recherche Proust had stopped fashioning himself as a dandy (even if had become more eccentric), and his dream was to see the “common people” reading his novels in ..."

Cheryl wrote: "Kalliope wrote: By the time of La recherche Proust had stopped fashioning himself as a dandy (even if had become more eccentric), and his dream was to see the “common people” reading his novels in ..."

Cheryl, how I envy you. Reading Proust for the first time...taking that "exotic ride." True Proustians never want to spoil the ending, because we can then travel along with you-vicariously. Keep your blinders on; you can always re-read the novel and many of the keepsakes on this site.

Toto wrote: "He recalls in great detail structures, people, colours, and of course hawthorns, but nothing of butterflies, ants, and other creepy crawlies. Yes, he's an odd kid who READs in the garden rather than chasing birds, but why does he not even notice them when he goes for his long walks? Selective memory or voluntary blindness? Any thoughts anyone?
"

The Narrator has a lot of Proust's childhood memories. Proust was a sickly asthmatic child who was doted over, and learned to use his sickly disposition to get attention. Since he cannot be like regular children who run around chasing birds, he focused internally instead of externally, focusing and revisiting things in his mind.

There's a passage regarding the Narrator's friend Bloch, who is Jewish. Of the Narrator's grandfather's racism:

"...that friend was invariably a Jew; to which he would not have objected on principle—indeed his own friend Swann was of Jewish extraction—had he not found that the Jews whom I chose as friends were not usually of the best type..."

That reminds me of the environment in France at that time, illustrated in Louis-Ferdinand Céline's (1894-1961) anti-Semitic writing.

Of Bergotte's influence on the Narrator:

"...Whenever he spoke of something whose beauty had until then remained hidden from me, of pine-forests or of hailstorms, of Notre-Dame Cathedral, of Athalie or of Phèdre, by some piece of imagery he would make their beauty explode into my consciousness. And so, realising that the universe contained innumerable elements which my feeble senses would be powerless to discern did he not bring them within my reach, I longed to have some opinion, some metaphor of his, upon everything in the world, and especially upon such things as I might some day have an opportunity of seeing for myself;..."

Aloha wrote: "There's a passage regarding the Narrator's friend Bloch, who is Jewish. Of the Narrator's grandfather's racism:
"...that friend was invariably a Jew; to which he would not have objected on princip..."

Also, Proust's mother's side of the family was Jewish, while the father's side was Catholic. Proust leaned toward the Catholic side.

Aloha wrote: "There's a passage regarding the Narrator's friend Bloch, who is Jewish. Of the Narrator's grandfather's racism:
"...that friend was invariably a Jew; to which he would not have objected on princip..."

Yes, Proust was a very active Dreyfussard and dragged Anatole France into it as well.

http://www.marxists.org/history/franc...

Kalliope wrote: "One sentence that struck me from the Lady in Pink, the friend of the uncle, when she is discussing whether the Narrator resembles his mother:

"Ce petit jeune homme a ses (de la mère) beaux jeux et aussi ça, dit-elle, en traçant avec son doigt une ligne sur le bas de son front. Est-ce que madame votre nièce porte le même nom que vous, ami?".

I had to read twice (thrice?) the sentence when she makes the sign on her brow. She must have been referring to the eyebrows of the Narrator.

Marcel Proust's eyebrows were striking for being thick and straight. Depending on the image his mother shows a similar feature.

Karen wrote: "I stumbled over that one too!
I misread it at first, thinking that she traced her finger over the Narrator's forehead, but then he would have said mon front. So she must have made the gesture over her own forehead. I think you must be right, that she was making a reference to the very distinctive eyebrows."

Oh! I took this to be some kind of worry line/wrinkle!

So this would imply the Narrator looks like Proust? Interesting, because I was just using the information that his real aunt in Illiers was neither bedridden nor widowed, to convince myself I should not identify them so much ...

Rosemary wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "One sentence that struck me from the Lady in Pink, the friend of the uncle, when she is discussing whether the Narrator resembles his mother:

"Ce petit jeune homme a ses (de la mè..."

That was "my" interpretation of the gesture, which for me was supported with the fact that the word "ça" is in italics in the original.

My understanding is that Proust is playing with similarities and differences between real life and his fiction all the time.

It is interesting that in Ulysses, Joyce also made one of his two main characters Jewish. He and Proust were writing around the same time.

Rosemary wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "One sentence that struck me from the Lady in Pink, the friend of the uncle, when she is discussing whether the Narrator resembles his mother:

"Ce petit jeune homme a ses (de la mè..."

Combray was a fictional combination of Illiers and Auteuil, a suburb of Paris. Perhaps Proust had a bed-ridden relative there?

Marcelita wrote: Cheryl, how I envy you. Reading Proust for the first time...taking that "exotic ride." True Proustians never want to spoil the ending, because we can then travel along with you-vicariously. Keep your blinders on; you can always re-read the novel and many of the keepsakes on this site...."

Thank you, Marcelita.

Fashion Quotes ‏@Fashion__Quotes
Fashion is architecture: it is a matter of proportions. Coco Chanel

Aloha wrote: "Of Bergotte's influence on the Narrator:
"...Whenever he spoke of something whose beauty had until then remained hidden from me, of pine-forests or of hailstorms, of Notre-Dame Cathedral, of Athali..."

I just finished re-reading this week's segment this morning. I found the pages on Bergotte enlightening and humorous...a treasure map it seems for what has been and what is to come.

First the Narrator describes his infatuation with a wealth of words "which one has not yet 'got hold of'"

Next layer, "observed the rare, almost archaic expressions....in which a hidden stream of harmony, an inner prelude, would heighten his style..."

On he goes to another turn of the wheel: the " 'vain dream of life'...the 'moving effigies of which enoble for all time the charming and venerable fronts of our cathedrals' that would express a whole system of philosophy."

Until the Narrator eventually finds boundless joy in the " 'ideal passage' of Bergotte" by which his "own understanding seemed to be enlarged".

Eventually the Narrator could only have confidence in his own words & thoughts if he found the equivalent in Bergotte.

And then finally the passages that made me laugh out loud:

"And so I [the Narrator] would read, or rather sing his sentences in my mind, with rather more dolce, rather more lento than he himself had perhaps intended, and his simplest phrase would strike my ears with something peculiarly gentle and loving in its intonation. More than anything else I cherished his philosophy, and had pledged myself to it in lifelong devotion."

Then Swann comes along and humanizes Bergotte...he dines with the Swann's weekly and he is Swann's daughter's greatest friend...exploring old towns and cathedrals and castles together. Of course the Narrator then immediately falls in love or infatuation with Mlle Swann.

In this description of Bergotte, Proust seemed to speak of his conscious drawing of us the reader in ever deeper...and at the same time, tongue in cheek, find humor in too much devotion...and remind us that he is after all fully human.

Cheryl wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Of Bergotte's influence on the Narrator:
"...Whenever he spoke of something whose beauty had until then remained hidden from me, of pine-forests or of hailstorms, of Notre-Dame Cathed..."

Yes, I have laughed out loud in the same passage, Cheryl. This has been the great surprise for me, that Proust is so humorous.

Nick wrote: "I have a paper of his (Anthony Pugh) out of Modern Philology journal called The "Ending of Swann Revisited" where, based on genetic/"textural archaeology" Pugh gives us a new way of reading the ending of SW closer to Proust's original intentions. For my read this year, I am going to try it."

The ending of SW has in it that wistful tone of the Narrator that I cherish; I found a JSTOR page where I can read "Ending of Swann Revisited" for free.

"Genetic criticism does not focus on one particular state of the text, but rather in the process by which the text came to be." GC seems to humanizes the author as a writer who rewrites. Thank you for the Cahiers BNF link; it's just what I wanted to see.

I have Pugh, Winton & Van Hulle in my Amazon cart--thinking if I should-- before I pull the trigger & buy them tomorrow

Upon your recommendation I bought Houston's Shape and Style of Proust's Novel; after reading several pages about Proust's (all French students) schooling in German Idealism with examples of it in passages of ISOLT, that have been quoted/mentioned in this thread, it dawned on me that little is written about the Narrator's schooling. He appears to be an autodidact. Anyway Houston's argument for the influence of Schopenhauer, Kant et al on Proust is convincing, moreover he makes the understanding of Proust's philosophical speculations in ISOLT easier to understand because they have a source.

Bergotte: Up until I read phrases of Bergotte quoted by the Narrator in this week's reading, I was more or less convinced that the writing of Bergotte was similar to the writing of Proust in ISOLT as Jean Milly maintains in La Phrase de Proust, des phrases de Bergotte aux phrases de Vinteuil,

"Nous pouvons aussi connaître ce style indirectement, à travers les longs commentaires du Narrateur, par reconstitution et même, nous le verrons, par décryptage. Mais un fait devrait très vite nous suggérer une parenté entre l'écriture de Proust et celle de Bergotte : c'est que les thèmes et le vocabulaire de ces commentaires sont ceux du Contre Sainte-Beuve, principalement de sa «conclusion» (CSB, 303-312), et de plus d'un passage de la Recherche. Voici donc que Bergotte nous apparaît, comme tant d'autres personnages, investi d'un aspect de la personnalité de son créateur. Aussi nous proposons-nous de renoncer au point de vue de Bergotte-personnage à clés et, au lieu de rechercher ses éventuels modèles extérieurs, de partir de la description de son style par le Narrateur pour nous demander si ce style fictif ne représente pas, au moins partiellement, celui de Proust, c'est-à-dire s'il n'est pas le modèle ou l'un des modèles, de l'écriture de la Recherche." _Milly

But these quoted phrases of Bergotte beginning with the "vain dream of life..." on P.96 of the Davis Translation, Kindle Edition sound like juvenilia to me, or better, writing that would attract a younger person. Does one find such wording by Proust in ISOLT? If so where--perhaps I'm wrong. Note that the speaker is the younger Narrator, so what could be expected of him, yet I felt embarrassed not so much for his youthfulness, but for what he liked of Bergotte.

Eugene, do not lose heart. The Narrator eventually matures as a writer. Read on to find out what he thinks of Bergotte.

Aloha wrote:"...The Narrator eventually matures as a writer. Read on to find out what he eventually thinks of Bergotte."

Let me be more clear,

Anything the young narrator may think or say of Bergotte's writing, as he does in this passage, is his impression of Bergotte's writing; that impression will change when the Narrator gets older.

Quoted words by Bergotte are qroted words by Bergotte; they can not change.

Aloha, also in this passage the Narrator speaks of reading Bergotte, "he would make that beauty explode into me" which is similar to what Proust wrote about John Ruskin, of his early encounters, of his attraction, in saying 'farewell' to him for "idolatry" in the Postscript to the preface to the translation of The Bible of Amiens.

Yes Bergotte is interesting in relation to the Narrator but also to Proust according to Milly. I will read on, thank you for the encouragement.

Eugene wrote: "Bergotte: Up until I read phrases of Bergotte quoted by the Narrator in this week's reading, I was more or less convinced that the writing of Bergotte was similar to the writing of Proust in ISOLT ..."

Eugene, I'm with you on that. Regarding the Sainte-Beuve idea, Proust wrote a criticism of his idea that the author is inextricably tied up with his work:

http://modernism.research.yale.edu/wi...

Yes, what I meant was that although you were embarrassed that the Narrator liked the subpar Bergotte's writing, it was from the inexperienced Narrator's point of view. As the Narrator gained experience, he was able to see that it was not as great as he thought.

Proust outgrew John Ruskin and eventually found him tedious.

Proustitute wrote: "P.S. Sorry for being a bad group leader this week and only catching up now. Life has been kind of crazy."

Actually, you made me feel good about myself for being ahead of you of for just a little while! :)

Proustitute wrote: "I definitely agree that any serious Proust-ers here should read The Lemoine Affair.

One thing that I forgot to mention earlier which interested me is this idea of "ordinary" people having artistic..."

As an astrophysicist reading Proust, the passage about M. Legrandin having a sort of double life between his scientific and artistic career especially stood out to me. I wonder if Proust is trying to draw a distinction between what one has a talent for (in M. Legrandin's case he could have been a full time writer and artist) and what one chooses to do (M. Legrandin is an engineer by trade and takes little time off) for whatever reasons.

The idea of an intellectual life and striving for one is also present (in how I read it) in the narrator's life. The narrator has strong opinions about actors though he's never seen a play (p. 75 in Davis trans.), strongly values the experience of reading (p. 87 for the next few pages) and interacts with Swann on the level of literature when Swann says he's met Bergotte. The theme of striving for intellectual life is an interesting one and I'm intrigued to see if it carries on through Swann's Way.

Margaret - this really struck home for me being an engineer who now laments to some degree at not being more immersed in literature as a profession.

M. Legrandin represents everything that is wrong with not living your life authentically, filling your life with pretensions. There is more to his self-delusions than the fact that he chose the wrong career.

The Narrator's racist grandfather was making a comparison between acceptable Jews (Swann) and unacceptable Jews (Bloom).