The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Phillida wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "It is interesting that in Ulysses, Joyce also made one of his two main characters Jewish. He and Proust were writing around the same time."

Yes, it is interesting. But WHY is Sw..."

Could Swann be a Jew because Proust wants to make some sort of social statement about how France views Salon Jews in comparison with other Jews considered more ghetto during his time?

Jeremy wrote: "Margaret - this really struck home for me being an engineer who now laments to some degree at not being more immersed in literature as a profession."

I have been curious for awhile...about a particular passage that was constructed using precise numerical patterns. Naturally, I was surprised at the revelation, after reading a journal article.

Rather than getting into the details now, would you and Margaret be so kind to file this away until the later time? I think you both would appreciate the hidden layer and may be able to explain it to us.

(I'm interested too, Marcelita!)

PS: Eugene, did you buy those books in the end?

Aloha wrote: "M. Legrandin represents everything that is wrong with not living your life authentically, filling your life with pretensions. There is more to his self-delusions than the fact that he chose the wr..."

Interesting. But that is not what I gathered from the couple of pages he existed on. Is there more to come? :)

Marcelita wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Margaret - this really struck home for me being an engineer who now laments to some degree at not being more immersed in literature as a profession."

I have been curious for awhile...."

Numerical patterns?! That does sound intriguing!

Safe to say that with nearly every character, there is always more to come right until the last pages of the last book :P

Jeremy wrote: "Aloha wrote: "M. Legrandin represents everything that is wrong with not living your life authentically, filling your life with pretensions. There is more to his self-delusions than the fact that h..."

Yes. Read on!

Nick wrote: "Safe to say that with nearly every character, there is always more to come right until the last pages of the last book :P"

I've heard it said that it is like a building of the universe. You can call it a miniature universe.

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Phillida wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "It is interesting that in Ulysses, Joyce also made one of his two main characters Jewish. He and Proust were writing around the same time."

Yes, it is interestin..."

I'm reading Proust in Love. Based on this book, I got the impression that Proust is accepting of people and is disturbed by the intolerance he sees, particularly of Jews and homosexuals. It also looks like that although he was from a wealthy family and socializes with the upper crust, he does not look down upon the working classes. But he is very concerned that his homosexuality will cause scandal and make him lose status within the community. It occurred to me that his idea of tolerance and building of the universe (reminds me of the Bhagavad-Gita) is very Buddhist in what Buddhism, at its root, was meant to be. Within the internet world, little infractions causes great intolerance, so you can imagine how it must be in an anti-Semitic and anti-gay environment!

Rereading sections. On the episode of the uncle and the lady in pink.

The "cocotte" with the creative and transforming abilities of an artist:

"...elle avait pris quelque propos insiginifiant de mon père, elle l'avait travaillé avec délicatesse, lui avait donné un tour, une appelation précieuse, et y enchâssant un de ses regards d'une si belle eau, nuancé d'humilité et de gratitude, elle le rendait changé en un bijou artiste, en quelque chose de "tout à fait exquis".

Kalliope wrote: "Rereading sections. On the episode of the uncle and the lady in pink.

The "cocotte" with the creative and transforming abilities of an artist:

"...elle avait pris quelque propos insiginifiant de..."

"...so in the same way she had taken some casual remark of my father's, had delicately fashioned it, given it a “turn,” a precious title, and embellishing it with a gem-like glance from her sparkling eyes, tinged with humility and gratitude, had given it back transformed into a jewel, a work of art, into something “exquisitely charming.” (ML)

Thank you Aloha for finding the translated section.

You're welcome, Kalliope. I know you're reading the French.

I think I shall get the Davis volume and relish in her abilities in the very difficult art of translation.

Proustitute wrote: "Here's Davis's take on that passage for those who may want to compare (and see what a fine job Davis has done!):

"... so in the same way she had taken some insignificant remark of my father's, had..."

That is a wonderful translation, P. Thank you. I really need to hit her translation.

More rereading.

The section of reading in the garden is crucial for those interested in Proust's aesthetics. To be read with a magnifying glass. There are too many quotes, and they are too long to be included here, but it is a section to study.

Proustitute wrote: "Here's Davis's take on that passage for those who may want to compare (and see what a fine job Davis has done!):

"... so in the same way she had taken some insignificant remark of my father's, had..."

I'm just going to be completely honest. To me these read the same with some word variations. I am guessing that one could be argued to be truer to the French but I don't feel that I would pull a different meaning from one to the other.

I agree with Jeremy. I actually pulled a Davis copy out of the library yesterday 'cause I happened to be there (I'm reading the Modern Library version on my Kindle), and I was just comparing a few passages...I don't see huge differences.

I can certainly see the excitement about that.

Kalliope wrote: "Rereading sections. On the episode of the uncle and the lady in pink.

The "cocotte" with the creative and transforming abilities of an artist"

Does the narrator refer to the Lady in Pink as a cocotte (in French)? In the LD translation, I think Swann's wife was the only "cocotte" we've met so far. Or was being an actress sufficiently disreputable in those days to warrant the cocotte label?

Ned wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Rereading sections. On the episode of the uncle and the lady in pink.

The "cocotte" with the creative and transforming abilities of an artist"

Does the narrator refer to the Lad..."

When he first sees her the words are: "....en face de lui, en robe de soie rose avec un grand collier de perles au cou, était assise une jeune femme qui achevait de manger une mandarine".

But a few paragraphs later, the Narrator says: "J'avais peine à croire que ce fût une cocotte et surtout je n'aurais pas cru que ce fût une cocotte chic si je n'avais pas vu la voiture à deux chevaux,..."

She is not necessarily an actress. Her looking so normal disappoints the Narrator, because she does not have the theatricality that he had seen in the photos of actresses.

Ah, Davis translates it as "courtesan" (but let the previous reference to Mrs. Swann stay as "cocotte"). I must have missed the courtesan part on my first reading. D'oh.

Ned wrote: "Ah, Davis translates it as "courtesan" (but let the previous reference to Mrs. Swann stay as "cocotte"). I must have missed the courtesan part on my first reading. D'oh."

"cocotte" is such a good word...!!!

Jeremy wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Margaret - this really struck home for me being an engineer who now laments to some degree at not being more immersed in literature as a profession."

I have been c..."

Yes, Proust wrote on so many layers...I feel I'm looking into the Grand Caynon of his mind. I read somewhere, that Proust wanted to leave some "treasures" for his deep readers or seekers...not unlike some of the tales in his beloved Arabian Nights.

I like the word "Demi-mondaire" too. Such a strange arrangement to us nowadays! (Well, I think it is?)

Nick wrote: "I like the word "Demi-mondaire" too. Such a strange arrangement to us nowadays! (Well, I think it is?)"

Yes, that is another great term.

Typo! :p Sorry :)

Phillida wrote: "Nick wrote: "I like the word "Demi-mondaire" too. Such a strange arrangement to us nowadays! (Well, I think it is?)"

Is that a typo for "demimondaine" or a separate word that I can't find?"

No, it is not a typo. From the Petit Robert:

Demi-mondain, aine

(1866). Du demi-monde. "ces demi-mondains ou parasites qu'il avait ramassés dans ses nuits de beuverie" (G. Leroy)

Demi-monde.

(1789). Société de femmes légères, de moeurs équivoques, et de ceux qui les fréquentent.

Note that it can be used for males also, as in the example above.

Phillida wrote: "Nick wrote: "I like the word "Demi-mondaire" too. Such a strange arrangement to us nowadays! (Well, I think it is?)"

Is that a typo for "demimondaine" or a separate word that I can't find?"

I had not seen Nick's "r" instead of "n" and I thought the difference was in the hyphen. Sorry, yes, it is demi-mondain/e, with dash and n.

Mme Kalli, I wrote mondaiRe (silly iPhone autocorrects it to that now?) instead of mondaiNe!

Kalliope wrote: ""cocotte" is such a good word...!!! "

I agree, I even felt the desire of listening to it:

http://larousse.com/en/dictionaries/french/cocotte

Hi everyone. My first post: things here move at lightning speed, hope I can keep up. I’d like to chime first in re the church in Combray, which was discussed several pages ago. I think a lot was said about the architectural qualia of how it presents: all great stuff. But for me, the Church really IS Combray. It comes into its own in the hall of characters, much like the heath does in Hardy’s ‘Tess of d’urvbervilles’. It is a living, breathing entity, over and above its physical parameters, which dominate every visual space in the surroundings. At times Proust imbues it with mystical hues which have a haptic effect. I witnessed a similar ‘rapture’ in Genet’s ‘Our Lady of the flowers’. It made me think of how anglo-saxon tradition (stiff upper lip, protestant asceticism) has divorced itself from the emotional register of faith as seen in Catholic churches, which makes the Proustian experience almost a guilty pleasure.

On a separate note: Proust uses ‘language’ like a painter would colour. The asparagus description is a frontal assault on all the senses. Its rare that a word can put a taste in my mouth.

knig wrote: "But for me, the Church really IS Combray."

I thought the same thing.

Jason wrote: "knig wrote: "But for me, the Church really IS Combray."

I thought the same thing."

I thought we had mentioned that is what the church represented. It also represents the structure of ISOLT, which I suspect takes place within Combray.

I don't doubt it was mentioned already, but I haven't been able to keep up with all the threads.

Proustitute wrote: "ISOLT takes place in several geographic locales, but the church at Combray is definitely Proust hinting at his structure—that, as he said, his novel was based on the structure of a cathedral, après..."

Vaguely, I remember reading that Proust wrote, in an unpublished letter, that he thought of naming parts of the novel after aspects of a cathedral, but disregarded it-too obvious.

Phillida you're right: I meant the return of the native! Thats where I first encountered the notion tht an innimate object can be a 'character', and that is how I saw the church at Combray. I was nort aware Proust was also using the church as a streucture for his novel: I will keep an eye out for that (and compare and contrast to the only other novel I have read with this notion: Donoso's the obscene bird of night).

knig wrote: "Phillida you're right: I meant the return of the native! Thats where I first encountered the notion tht an innimate object can be a 'character', and that is how I saw the church at Combray. I was n..."

Knigh, on the structure of Gothic cathedrals and of Proust fashioning his novel after it, see posts above:

18, 110, 125

Proust also compare the making of the novel to the making of a dress, an image which is a little more worldly but no less suggestive (surface and layer, and the fabric that reveals or obscures or suggests) all carefully constructed and pinned together. It is a simile or idea that I would favour over a cathedral image :) The book is too rich, too funny and wide ranging to associate with the stoney Gothic in my mind. To be honest though, I don't really give the book an image, or metaphor or think of it in terms of xyz. It just "is" very much.

Gaigneron wrote a very praising letter to Proust to say he saw a cathedral structure in his work, but Proust replied saying he had abandoned the idea of giving each section titles like apse and porch. Titles, yes, but as to structure, nothing prevents a reader approaching the novel with that idea in mind. As Proust himself says, less a magnificent edifice in toto and partmented into apse, porch etc, more a book where each carefully hewn stone or carving matters. Like the tiny carving of a very pensive looking dude in the porch of Amiens cathedral so high up and hard to make out that one wonders why it was done with so much care, Proust lavished the same attention on his people and places to make them live in us, from the bellhop and lift operator right up to his more extravagant characters, the few principal ones as varied, and detailed and crucially - human - as anything Shakespeare did.

Finally: I found a good webpage just now when looking to see who P was writing to about the cathedral idea.

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpresseb...

reading the above I am of two minds now. I have been reading ISOLT without any reference to outside sources/notes, but I can see that there is something to be said of say knowing about Gaigneron's letter and the cathedral structure. I have to decide whether to read without notes or start googling contamraneously as I read.

Nick wrote: "Proust also compare the making of the novel to the making of a dress, an image which is a little more worldly but no less suggestive (surface and layer, and the fabric that reveals or obscures or s..."

I did not know about the simile with dress making.... I like it.

On the Gothic architecture, I think not of additive terms/spaces such as apse, nave etc... (that is also the case for Romanesque churches) but of the engineering structure, ie: the ribs and buttresses that hold the edifice up (specific to Gothic), which for me are the running themes in the novel. And the light (divine light/artistic light) that is allowed to enter and unify everything, thanks to that internal Gothic frame/thematic frame).

I am currently exploring the Light element.

And as Proustitute suggested, the Ruskin reading (even if Proust outgrew him) is very important for understanding this concept. Not for nothing did Proust spend about 9 years working on Ruskin, the period that separates the failed Jean Santeuil and La recherche.

Kalliope wrote: "I did not know about the simile with dress making.... I like it."

This explains Yves Saint Laurent's infatuation and identification with Proust.
http://trouvais.com/tag/marcel-proust/

Based on my experience with creation, an artist usually approach a work with some sort of a skeleton in mind. However, once the creating starts, the artist has to let the work in progress tell the artist what it needs. Some artists are more free or rigid with each of these steps, and some are more skillful or insightful. Proust might have started off with the church inspiration, but could have relied less on that once his creation tells him differently, or other ideas start to take precedence over the original ideas.

I read it very much like Phillida did, knig. If you think you will only read it once, or have time to read it once (which is understandable) then you may wish to milk it fully, to see follow every unknown, every painting, or name that piques your interest.

For my reading, I too was young, and blasted through it very rapidly, enthralled, entranced and amazed at what I was reading. Granted, I probably missed a lot. for instance, at that time Wikipedia did not exist, and I didn't know what certain Botticelli, Bellini or Giotto paintings looked like, and I wasn't quite prepared to pull myself away from the gorgeous communion I was experiencing with Proust's visions, and his page after page of incredible prose, to traipse over to a library to find out.

I am still of that opinion that it doesn't matter who looked like who, as long as you are engaging with the reading, and your imagination is being massaged, and you are enjoying it. Other readers like to read differently, obviously. We are all different. And, we can all change.

The beauty of the book is it makes you want to read it again (well, I think it does...) so, with all the knowledge you gain on a first, slow reading, you can one day sit back and read more quickly, and have associated images of your research come unbidden to your mind (and how Proustian is THAT!).

So too, those of us who unguiltily gorged or glutted ourselves on Proust's lucious prose (unashamedly in my case :D) may well care to take it a little slower this time, and more fully investigate his "vast structure of recollection."

Short version: IMO: Do what feels right for you, and chimes with how you wish to read, or read normally!

Nick wrote: "Proust also compare the making of the novel to the making of a dress, an image which is a little more worldly but no less suggestive (surface and layer, and the fabric that reveals or obscures or s..."

Yes...that's the written exchange I had read. Thanks, Nick, our Proust-forager. In the red, again to you.

Kalliope wrote: "Nick wrote: "Proust also compare the making of the novel to the making of a dress, an image which is a little more worldly but no less suggestive (surface and layer, and the fabric that reveals or ..."

I discovered, in a reading group, an article which discussed the verb "bâtir," which means in Old French "to build," "to construct," or "build up." or "to sew."
(Stephanie A. Moore, "'Bâtir un livre.' The Architectural Poetics of A la recherche du temps perdu." page 193.)

As many cathedrals seem to be unfinished, the verb "bâtir" would seem to "build up," to be a continual work-in-progress...and "bâtir," to sew a dress, would seem, to me, to also be "built up."

Referring to YSL, before you make the final couture dress, the design is made in muslin first...basted together or "bâtir."

Here is an iconic example:
Muslin:
http://www.burdastyle.com/projects/th...

Final: The ‘Mondrian’ dress. "David Bailey photographed the multicolour Mondrian dress for the cover of Vogue Paris’ 1965 September issue."
Scroll down to "Mondrian! January 9, 2012"
http://blog.pattern-vault.com/page/7/

Yves Saint Laurent loved Proust and would check into hotel as "Swann."
Later in life, he was seen
"...retreating to the apartment he now kept separate from Bergé, obsessively rereading the works of Proust…"
http://www.vogue.com/voguepedia/Yves_...

Here is Marisa Berenson, reminiscing abut the 1971 Proust Bal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlWdMH...

Scroll to the last photograph. "There is a dress created (1971) for Hélène Rochas to wear at the celebrated Proust Ball. The Yves Saint Laurent gown stands in the last room of the exhibition."
http://www.architecturaldigest.com/bl...

"Three different sort of designer by Yves Saint Laurent (1968)"
So young...so sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJTfJ8...

To me, the circler aspect to to novel means it will always be "unfinished," because I will continually find a verb, like "bâtir" that takes me to a young genius.

To those who "make our hearts leap."

Marcelita wrote: "
To those who "make our hearts leap."

Thanks Marcelia for sharing all these links. I enjoyed going through them. To those who help us understand others.

Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Nick wrote: "Proust also compare the making of the novel to the making of a dress, an image which is a little more worldly but no less suggestive (surface and layer, and the fabric..."

Thanks, Marcelita. I wanted to go through those since couture sewing was one of my hobbies, but I got distracted when Kalliope posted the Proust quote in our next section.

Aloha wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Nick wrote: "Proust also compare the making of the novel to the making of a dress, an image which is a little more worldly but no less suggestive (surface and lay..."

We probably should mosey over to the Group Lounge...where I will post (later) some fashion-related sites to Fortuny and couture.

I look forward to it, Marcelita. Thank you.