The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Book Portrait wrote: "

If Proust's mother liked Mme de Sévigné, he preferred Molière. "..."

No, I have not seen the imitation of Proust by Morand.

I have found this other one..

http://www.ina.fr/video/CPF86634904/m...

I can't view this live interview on my iPad but will look at it later. It sounds like a real treasure.
In the meantime I'm still preoccupied with the Narrator's meditation on writing and art, GF pages 88 to 95, which I've read and reread and haven't been able to move beyond. Kall did a great analysis of it earlier this week but I'm finding it more complex with each reread. Basically, I think now that by creatiing the Goncourt pastiche, Proust meant to mark the difference between the kind of writing and art which represents the subjects which inspires it as faithfully as Mme Verdurun's black pearls and the kind where the writers and artists try to get beneath the surface of the subjects which inspire them and create something entirely new from the original inspiration. I think Proust is telling us that the salons which he attended, the banalities of which often bored him, nevertheless furnished him firstly with matter for reflection and later with material for artistic creation. He is saying that he hasn't tried to recreate the society he knew and in which he moved freely but a new and unique kind of fictional creation with its own unique colour palette and brush strokes. Does this make any sense?

Fionnuala wrote: "I can't view this live interview on my iPad but will look at it later. It sounds like a real treasure.
In the meantime I'm still preoccupied with the Narrator's meditation on writing and art, GF p..."

Yes, this section is complex and I should also reread it again... But it certainly is not a lamentation that he cannot write. That corresponds to a simple reading.

First he has proven that he can write like the Goncourts if he wants to, but that for him is as easy as playing a game..., and second he tells us that he looks for something deeper.. and he tells this towards the end of the novel, and with which he has proven that indeed he was after something deeper...

And finally, there are the subtleties you are referring to -- observation versus new creation. I should go back to those.

Kalliope wrote: ".. and second he tells us that he looks for something deeper.. and he tells this towards the end of the novel, and with which he has proven that indeed he was after something deeper..."

I kept thinking of Cézanne as I read these pages, and I've been reminded of him in earlier volumes too. When he painted his Mont Saint Victoire series, he wanted to capture the layers that lay beneath that landscape he knew so well on the surface but the hidden structure of which obsessed him. That's what I think Proust wanted to do too, reveal the hidden structure of the society he knew by repeatedly probing and examimng it.

Book Portrait wrote: I probably tend to think of some of these parts as "hilarious" because Proust actually makes me laugh out loud. It's social satire at its most biting but done exquisitely, sometimes with a hint of tenderness (I'm thinking of Françoise for instance).

Proust fails me in his attempts at humor; I have never laughed out loud, once in what we've read so far. If you find portions of the text "hilarious", so be it--I don't--each to his own, as they say. I welcome you to laugh, please if you find it funny, laugh; I would laugh too and I'm sure you know more than I do.

However there is another thing than Proust's--at what I would call--clumsy attempts as being funny, what I see (my impression) is wit, but not wit of the word, not of the paragraph, not of the expression, but of a spanning structure, covering a volume or two perhaps, and more. The entire novel is not only a comedy of manners but more importantly, it is a comedy of morals for the reasons I included in the message that you quote and more: Albertine/the Narrator in their continuing jealous snarls of lying and love, Swann/Odette and Charlus/Morel in theirs and Françoise listening to the butler about the war for example,

She no longer slept, no longer ate. Every day she insisted on the bulletins, of which she understood nothing, being read to her by the butler who understood hardly more of them than she did, and in whom the desire to torment Françoise was frequently dominated by a patriotic cheerfulness: he would say, with a sympathetic laugh, referring to the Germans: "Things are hotting up for them, it won't be long before old Joffre puts salt on the tail of the comet." Françoise had no idea what comet he was alluding to, but this strengthened her conviction that the phrase was one of those amiable and original extravagances to which a well-bred person is required by the laws of courtesy to respond good-humoredly, so gaily shrugging her shoulders as if to say: "He's always the same," she tempered her tears with a smile. ML p. 87

Did you find the above funny? Did you laugh out loud? I didn't (what's funny about two illiterate people conversing and misunderstanding each other being observed by an educated person of an upper class?) but I did find it tender, to borrow your word. And that tenderness defines, as an example here, wit for me; Proust's overarching wit, his spanning structure, if you will.

That Proust tells his odd stories so straight-facedly is not funny in a way that you would term "hilarious" but he is to be celebrated for the wit of his comedy of manners and his comedy of morals.

Kalliope wrote: "No, I have not seen the imitation of Proust by Morand."

Yes it's in the "Marcel Proust: Portrait Souvenir" documentary you found in the INA archives.

A shorter version (1 hour vs the full 1h30... not sure what the difference is) is available on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s60bNc...

The wonderful Cocteau is @ 18:20
And Paul Morand imitating Proust is @ 23:50

{I posted this link a while back in the francophone thread. :)}

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: ".. and second he tells us that he looks for something deeper.. and he tells this towards the end of the novel, and with which he has proven that indeed he was after something deepe..."

Yes, I remember you mentioned Cézanne before. Reem has posted an article on Cézanne and Proust in the Lounge, recently. I have not read it properly yet because that sort of thing I read better printed out. I shall print it next week.

Here is one of "your" Mont Saint-Victoire...

Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "No, I have not seen the imitation of Proust by Morand."

A shorter version (1 hour v..."

Thank you BP. Yes, I know you had posted it but could not find it in the Threads.

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: ".. and second he tells us that he looks for something deeper.. and he tells this towards the end of the novel, and with which he has proven that indeed he was after something deepe..."

Later today I want to read the Goncourt pastiche again. It is interesting that he uses that style to describe something that belongs to his and not to the Goncourt's world, the Verdurins.

Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "No, I have not seen the imitation of Proust by Morand."

A shorter version (1 hour v..."

This makes me think I have never read Morand... Will investigate to see which one of his works should I pick.

Book Portrait wrote: "I was put off most of French literature during high school (Balzac, Zola... pouah!) but Proust is going to make me want to read them, starting with Molière, then Racine, then Balzac, then... :)
..."

Something similar happened to me, but in a mirror image...

You are lucky because you can explore then of a full body of wonderful Literature.

Kalliope wrote: "This makes me think I have never read Morand... Will investigate to ..."

I've never read Morand either. I know he was a diplomat with strong antisemitic views that ruined his (writing, probably diplomatic too) career after WWII... I'm not even sure he's out of the purgatory yet but he was known as a fantastic stylist. He wrote quite a few "récits de voyage" (Londres, Venise, New York...) and shorts stories about les années folles (Ouvert la nuit & Fermé la nuit). I own those two and L' Homme Pressé. I've been meaning to read them for a while but you know how it goes... :) I think he also wrote a biography of Chanel. Plenty to choose from if you want to get a taste of his writing... :)

Fionnuala wrote: "I'm still preoccupied with the Narrator's meditation on writing and art (...) Does this make any sense? "

You and Kall prompted me to reread the Goncourt pastiche which I wasn't too fond of the first time around! ;)

The way you both explained it makes perfect sense to me. I too think that Proust included this pastiche to show what he doesn't consider to be great literature but just naive, tedious, flat accounts of the life of the same characters he uses in his own novel, with dramatically different results & intentions.

At the sentence level, Goncourt's style is monotone and precious (insipid like Kalliope says!): everything is on the same level, it keeps going like a snoozer whereas Proust's is an adventure! :)

And even worse Goncourt is interested by the assiettes (dishes) and the potatoes without revealing anything interesting about the characters.

In fact the Narrator and Goncourt have the exact opposite views on each character's intelligence and worth (Verdurin, Cottard & the Princess versus Swann & Brichot...).

This leads the Narrator to explain to us that the power of Art is in the Artist('s eye/mind) not in what inspired it. Goncourt is academic and stale; he only saw the surface.

The pastiche feels like an element in Proust's demonstration Against Sainte-Beuve...

"... la lecture, au contraire, nous apprend à relever la valeur de la vie, valeur que nous n'avons pas su apprécier et dont nous nous rendons compte seulement par le livre combien elle était grande." p91

and the personal flaws of Vinteuil, Bergotte & Elstir bear no relevance to the quality of their work - which is the main charge against Sainte-Beuve:

"...leur génie est manifesté par leurs oeuvres." p91

Book Portrait wrote: "....I too think that Proust included this pastiche to show what he doesn't consider to be great literature but just naive, tedious, flat accounts of the life of the same characters he uses in his own novel, with dramatically different results & intentions...."

Yes, and that explains why he used his own fictional characters and situations in the Goncourt passage rather than real examples from the Goncourt Jounals. Also, by underlining that the Narrator despairs of writing about society as the Goncourts did, Proust is distancing the Recherche from comparisons with any such socialite accounts. Perhaps that was all the more necessary since he did write semi journalistic accounts of balls and salons for the social pages of Le Figaro when he was younger. Here, he is making a case, via his unsuspecting Narrator, for the underlying philosophical value of the Recherche, fighting against any accusations of it being simply an account by a 'mondain' of the banal lives of other 'mondains'.
And you are right about how this argument links back to his Contre Saint-Beuve stance, his belief in the power of literature to teach us more about the realities of life than any transient journalism or author biographical details could ever do.

Kalliope...I'm glad you like my stories. You should have seen my dad. The schoolbus didn't come by my house; I had to walk all the way out to the road, far from the house, that cuts through our farm; a very deserted stretch; and my protective father always went with me (on freezing mornings he'd build us a little fire) and I would say, "Tell me about when you was little, Daddy." It was great.
It's also how I kept my students awake...

Elizabeth, I haven't read all of the posts this week yet as I'm not very far in the reading but I'll go back and read your posts. You are saying what Proust is saying in a way - that we learn about life through literature as you did from your father's stories - a type of oral literature - and as your students did from yours.

Book Portrait wrote: "
I've never read Morand either. I know he was a diplomat with strong antisemitic views that ruined his (wri..."

I have been reading about him in the wiki now.. Interesting character and yes, his later political ideas must have ostracized him from the cultural Olympus... He and his lover and later wife Princess Soutzo figure in the coterie that Gautier-Vignal describes.

The short stories you mention and then these two books L' Homme Pressé from the titles seem to form a diptych...!!! Eloge du repos.. could be a good start.


Princesse Soutzo, by Nadar.

Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope...I'm glad you like my stories. You should have seen my dad. The schoolbus didn't come by my house; I had to walk all the way out to the road, far from the house, that cuts through our fa..."

Fio expressed it very well. Elizabeth, your dad sounds like quite a character...

L'homme pressé certainly needs his repos, Kalliope!
And I like your diptych of the Princesse Soutzo..

Yet another element from earlier in the novel that serves to establish the internal links.. the "diabolo"..

Another of the images Proust used for his work was that of a tapestry.. these elements, not quite fully developed leitmotivs, seem like horizontal threads...

We posted about it when it first appeared.. I think it was either in Cabourg or in the Champs Elyssées...

But now in this volume...

De sorte, qu'au moment où certains jeunes gens s'engamèrent simplement par esprit d'imitation sportive, comme une année tout le monde joue au "diabolo", pour Saint-Loup la guerre fut.... p. 122.

The way the Narrator deals with Françoise could be a full study. She is one of the most complex characters in the novel. And with his ambivalence he made me laugh again when she takes a taste to saying several times a day the...

"patatipatali et patatatipatala"... p. 125.

straight out of the Pantomime tradition...

See, this is why I prefer the original Moncrieff: he says, that from her lips "had previously flowed the purest French" before she went to the abovementioned slang.

Elizabeth wrote: "See, this is why I prefer the original Moncrieff: he says, that from her lips "had previously flowed the purest French" before she went to the abovementioned slang."

Has this changed?... in the French the text says (after Françoise's daughter first uses the patati...):

..Françoise crut sans doute que son incomplète éducation seule l'avait jusqu'ici privée de ce bel usage. Et sur ces lèvres où j'avais vu fleurir jadis le français le plus pur j'entendis plusieurs fois par jour...

Kalliope quoted: Les silhouettes des arbres se reflétaient nettes et pures sur cette neige d'or bleuté, avec la délicatesse qu'elles ont dans certaines peintures japonaises ou dans certains fonds de Raphaël.

Here is the translation: Against this snow of bluish gold the silhouettes of the trees were outlined clear and pure, with the delicacy that they have in certain Japanese paintings or in certain backgrounds of Raphael; and on the ground at the foot of the tree itself there was stretched out its shadow as often one sees trees' shadowsin the country as sunset, when the light inundates and polishes to the smoothness of a mirror some meadow in which they are planted at regular intervals.

Then she goes on: And here are a couple of samples of dainty trees.

And she reproduces pictures by Raphael with "dainty trees"; I find interesting most of the pictures she shares here as I like to look at art, particularly the work of 'the old masters', but the question I have is why did Proust feel the need to allude to Raphael when he can write a 'stand alone (no allusion)' sentence as beautiful that which follows it:

But by a refinement of exquisite delicacy the meadow upon which were displayed these shadows of trees, light as souls, was a meadow of paradise, not green but of a whiteness so dazzling because of the moonlight shining upon the jade-like snow that it might have been a meadow woven entirely from petals of flowering pear trees.

I ask myself, why the need for the allusion? Isn't Swann faulted when he saw (alluded to) Odette as Botticelli's Zipporah, Jethro's Daughter; is this a dependency that the Narrator will correct in time when moments show him how to write, to be free of allusion?

I've forgotten, if I ever knew, and will have to read on.

Jocelyne wrote: "Or nowadays with the rising intonation in declarative sentences. But this 'Fonfons' et al seem so incongruously idiotic, n'est-ce-pas, Fiofio, Lioliope?..."

I'm finally reading through this week's posts and came upon this, Jojo. I love it. I take it Fonfons was Alphonse of Spain. I loved too that Saint-Loup couldn't bring himself to call the German emperor by his first name. And didn't the Guermantes have German cousins in any case?

Kalliope wrote: "The Narrator addresses the reader again a couple of times in this section, and draws attention to the fact that he is engaged in writing a piece of work.
Je songeais que je n'avais pas revu depu..."

Yes, I was struck by that sudden reference to the characters who had peopled the earlier books. I could almost hear Proust reminding himself to keep up!

Kalliope wrote: "Saint-Loup used to take cocaine while in Tansonville. p. 119.

This has not been mentioned until now."

Saint-Loup's character goes through many changes in these final sections - but finally he looks like he is about tobe rehabilitated and perhaps will die a willing hero, unlike Bloch.

Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope: "Saint-Loup used to take cocaine while in Tansonville. p. 119." Freud took it, too; its dangers (much like tobacco) took a long time to be recognized. Once, in the 80s, I was watching th..."

Great! More stories, Elizabeth!

Book Portrait wrote: ".I probably tend to think of some of these parts as "hilarious" because Proust actually makes me laugh out loud. It's social satire at its most biting but done exquisitely, sometimes with a hint of tenderness (I'm thinking of Françoise for instance). Proust's humour took me by surprise when I started reading La Recherche and it's one of the (many) best things about him. :) "
I was surprised by the humour right at the beginning of the Recherche. Sometimes it is very subtle: du souvenir d'Albertine...il y a une sorte de sursaturation des choses auxquelles on a trop pensé GF 105, sometimes more obvious and laugh out loudable, Saint-Loup n'eût jamais pu, même torturé par les Allemands dire autrement que 'l'Empereur Guillaume' GF 115.

Kalliope wrote: "..Here is one of "your" Mont Saint-Victoire..."

Thank you for posting this, Kalliope - it illustrates so well the point i was trying to make. I will look at Reem's links when I get time. Cézanne has been a favourite of mine for many years - I like how he looked at the world and I like what he saw.

Kalliope wrote: "..Another of the images Proust used for his work was that of a tapestry.. these elements, not quite fully developed leitmotivs, seem like horizontal threads...We posted about it when it first appeared.. I think it was either in Cabourg or in the Champs Elyssées...
"

I found several such horizontal threads in this section: the maître d'hôtel talking about pistières instead of pissotières - and that Françoise then calls them pissetières out of loyalty is very funny - but it picks up a scene at the beginning of Du Côté des Guermantes and makes a link.
There was also the linking of the present with the past via M. Nissim Bernard's young servant whom we met in A l' Ombre. And the lifier is also recalled to play a new role..
Interesting too that Poust mentions his own street in that beautiful passage you quoted about the city during the blackout - loved the Raphael trees by the way.

I am also struck by the way St Loup keeps morphing into someone different. He is also a very complex character, full of nuances.

A final comment -when speaking of 'Dans les choux', the Cocteau character, Andrée's husband, it seemed to me that Proust was describing himself in the later years, or at least as Gautier-Vignal described him, i.e., ill, no longer sociable, concentrated on his work, only willing to meet people if they had some new insights to bring. Interesting.

Fionnuala wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Or nowadays with the rising intonation in declarative sentences. But this 'Fonfons' et al seem so incongruously idiotic, n'est-ce-pas, Fiofio, Lioliope?..."

I'm finally reading th..."

Fiofio et Jojo,

Here is Fonfons of Spain.



Lioliope.

He looks like Saint-Loup!

Jocelyne wrote: "I am also struck by the way St Loup keeps morphing into someone different. He is also a very complex character, full of nuances."

Yes, Saint-Loup is another very interesting and complex character...

So far, I think the two characters who seem more stable in their nature are Bloch, who is always disagreeable in a somewhat subtle way, and which as Fiofio says, is taking on now the nature of a coward, and also Morel, who is consistently abominable.

Fionnuala wrote: "He looks like Saint-Loup!"

LOL.. yes, he does... also had in common with him the many affairs on the side...

Fionnuala wrote: "
Thank you for posting this, Kalliope - it illustrates so well the point i was trying to make. I will look at Reem's links when I ge..."

How come I am not surprised Cézanne is one of your favourites?

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "..Another of the images Proust used for his work was that of a tapestry.. these elements, not quite fully developed leitmotivs, seem like horizontal threads...We posted about it wh..."

Yes, I think I have to go back and make the list with the vocabulary of the Hotel Director... One can imagine Proust laughing at these terms...

Fionnuala wrote: "He looks like Saint-Loup!"

I disagree. He really looks like a Fonfons!

Fionnuala wrote: "A final comment -when speaking of 'Dans les choux', the Cocteau character, Andrée's husband, it seemed to me that Proust was describing himself in the later years, or at least as Gautier-Vignal des..."

Yes, he does that.. project his own traits onto other people. I posted another example in post #20 above.

I ordered today the bio on Cocteau written by the same author who wrote the Proust contre Cocteau. BP had posted on this book and she has also marked the bio...

Jocelyne wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "He looks like Saint-Loup!"

I disagree. He really looks like a Fonfons!"

Yes, the overall figure like a Saint-Loup but the face had to be a Fonfons...

Fionnuala wrote: "Interesting too that Poust mentions his own street in that beautiful passage you quoted about the city during the blackout - loved the Raphael trees by the way. ..."

The Raphael trees are interesting because there is not a great deal of landscape in his work.. and he really incorporates it following the great Venetians like Bellini and early Titian who are such masters in these more copious landscape settings.

Thanks for reminding me that he mentions his street, Bvd Haussmann...

By Antoine Blanchard.



and




No trees on this very beautiful painting of the urban island in the same Boulevard, by Caillebotte.




And by Galien-Lalou and with somewhat leavesless trees..

Eugene wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: I probably tend to think of some of these parts as "hilarious" because Proust actually makes me laugh out loud. It's social satire at its most biting but done exquisitely, some..."

Very tender, I agree Eugene. I have LOL'd sometimes as well...

Kalliope wrote: "..Thanks for reminding me that he mentions his street, Bvd Haussmann..."

And today I got a present of Proust's Lettres à sa voisine, the previously unpublished letters written from 102, boulevard Haussmann to his upstairs neighbor, Marie Pallu.

Wonderful. Let us know how you like the book.

I am downloading the CDs with the letters to and from the mother. Five of them with about four or five letters each.

Fionnuala wrote: He is saying that he hasn't tried to recreate the society he knew and in which he moved freely but a new and unique kind of fictional creation with its own unique colour palette and brush strokes. Does this make any sense?

Perhaps it would make more sense if you explained what you mean by "a new and unique kind of fictional creation with its own unique colour palette and brush strokes".

Although the Goncourt pastiche is a mine of references, there is one that struck me, the Petit Dunkerque. This was a "petit magasin" on 3, Quai de Conti.

The shop-sign is now at the Carnavalet.





And the note from the Museum on the shop and the sign...

Il s'agit de l'enseigne d'un ancien magasin de curiosités. ce magasin appartenait à M. Granchez, originaire de Dunkerque, bijoutier de la reine Marie-Antoinette. Dans cette boutique étaient vendus des objets d'arts et de curiosités venant des quatre coins du monde.La première enseigne de cette boutique était un tableau qui représentait le port de Dunkerque avec l'arrivage des vaisseaux, qui apportaient de l'Inde et de la Chine la plupart des curiosités qu'on recherchait avec passion pour l'ornement des appartements à cette époque. la renommée de la boutique de Granchez fut telle que le nom survécut au marchand. En effet, près d'un siècle plus tard, on appelait Petit Dunkerque, une certaine catégorie de quincaillerie fine et de bijouterie de choix. Granchez vendit sa boutique vers 1789 (pour s'installer rue de Richelieu) à un marchand de vin qui conserva son nom célèbre et l'enseigne le petit Dunkerque resta sur la devanture jusqu'en 1913, date à laquelle le bâtiment fut démoli.

http://www.carnavalet.paris.fr/en/col...

It is a shame that the Note does not mention that the small shop figures in Proust's work.

...it was not because of the heat of the sun but from emotion in the presence of the majesty of death that the two virile men, on whose lips the words of grief and affection were almost unknown, now bared their heads."

Loved the "majesty of death"

Francoise reminds me of my mother...i am concerned that she acted like my servant, with that kind of sly (my word of course) power