The Sword and Laser discussion

I was reading "Cloud Atlas" at work (yes, my work is wonderful) and one of my colleague was looking in my direction and stopped on the title. He was very intrigued and commented aloud : "How can someone make an atlas ? How can someone map clouds ? It's always moving !
-That's exactly the point ! I replied.

I was at the very begining, so I didn't know about what the title refers to. But I think that my colleague's remark is very revelant. Aren't human lifes as ephemeral as clouds ? Except, of course, if there is an atlas hiding somewhere, behind what we can see in the first place.

How did you understand the title ?

I didn't go all that deep. For a collection of short stories, you can go two ways. You can just pick a phrase to apply to the collection, such as Engraved on the Eye. Or you can pick something that connects to the stories in the collection.

From where I'm at in the book, "Cloud Atlas" seems like the best choice for that second option. I've seen it connect a couple of the stories, but it's not one of the more specific connections that may give the reader an idea of what all of the stories are going to be like.

That's it, Steve. I don't want to give spoilers for people who haven't read the book, but it is a moving map of soul(s). When you read each story and see how the stories are connected, then the title will be significant.

Other Mitchell books have references to an "atlas of clouds" at some point. I'm still not fully sure what it means and would love to hear some opinions. Perhaps its a reference to how not only do his stories within a novel share themes but also across all of his fiction.

In fact, "Cloud Atlas" is the first Mitchell book I read. That's interesting, Ronan.

Interesting, I took the title to mean more of a state of being similar to the phrase, "I'm on cloud 9". In this case, the book is on cloud Atlas, an in the mythological Titan who keeps the world on his shoulders. Once I finish reading, I'll see which way I think fits better.

Wasn't "Cloud Atlas" the title of Frobisher's sextet? And then the tattoo is always described as a comet with a tail - but an Atlas travelling through clouds works too. Or you have souls moving through time like clouds moving across the sky? Now my head hurts.

Now, go put ice on that head, David! Yup. All that about the title.

Here is an interesting essay on Cloud Atlas as a conceptual novel, saying it has its root in SF and Fantasy.

http://www.conceptualfiction.com/clou...

My interpretation is that the usage of Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence, and the movements of souls is symbolic of the play on the meta-narrative.

Aloha wrote: "My interpretation is that the usage of Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence, and the movements of souls is symbolic of the play on the meta-narrative."

Now I'm reaching for the ice.

While you're at the fridge, get me a shot of tequila.

Now that I'm off the stairmaster and can type better...

What I meant is that Cloud Atlas refers to the movement within the eternal map of a soul. He used Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence as an endless repetition of a soul through varying life cycles. It's an endless cycle with no goal, unlike the eastern idea of reincarnation.

But...and this is text book postmodernism, he's not using the idea of a soul's recurrence as an end in itself. He's using it to play with the idea of a meta-narrative, which is a narrative about narratives. Postmodern novels are self-aware. It's saying "I know I'm a novel."

Does this make your head hurt less, David? Where's my tequila?

Aloha wrote: "Does this make your head hurt less, David?"

I don't know about the other one, but it actually made things worse for this David

Mo' tequila, please!

He's playing with narratives. Each of the narratives is an homage to a particular narrative style. To make them connect, he used the idea of the same soul traveling through each story, as in reincarnation, but more toward the Egyptian idea of reincarnation, which is without end. Nietzsche got his idea of eternal recurrence from the Egyptian idea of reincarnation. You'll see Mitchell's reference to Nietzsche and eternal recurrence in the book.

Boy, I'm glad I wrote my review in terms of the soul, instead of a postmodern play on narratives. LOL.

You had me at "meta-narrative." And I just had your tequila.

Aloha wrote: "My interpretation is that the usage of Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence, and the movements of souls is symbolic of the play on the meta-narrative. "

I like that, Aloha, I like it a lot.

I found myself fixating on the contrasts - that ephemeral nature of clouds, and the tangible and fixed nature of an atlas. I felt that contrast was played up in all of the tales. Personalities may shift, perspectives may shift, values may shift... but there is something constant about the driving human desire to learn and create, the compulsion to conquer, and the inevitability of cause and effect.

Bingo, Surly! You put it wonderfully. A narrative is really a recording of a human period of life. They may vary, such as time and culture, but there is a humanity that unites them all. He chose the Egyptian idea of reincarnation because there is no ultimate goal to rid of the cycle of suffering, but merely the fact that it is a cycle.

In this case, though, a strong recurring theme of each narrative is the idea of predator/prey.

In an ever changing world, a world as capricious as the clouds, the soul of man is a steady atlas, because the soul does not change. A certain core, identifiable essence of human nature will be seen in any individual, and a balance of certain forces--love, hope, courage, fear, belief--"phenomenon that determine the course of our lives," will be seen between any pair of lovers, will be spotted inside communities, viewed among civilizations.

In the book, each protagonist is of the same soul, as identified by the comet-shaped birth mark, and in each circumstance that the characters are faced with, their constant brand of altruism, virtuoso, courage, pluck, ascension and grace inspires them to rise up from a world of subjugation (the fruit of malevolent souls) and seek the purity of freedom and fairness.

And so it is through the aggregation of every constant soul, every "multitude of drops" that makes up this ocean of humanity, that a singular atlas resonates. Despite any foggy aesthetic differences between earthly periods and transient cultures, there is a clear and universal atlas powered and shaped by the souls of man across their individual lives and collective karmic journeys. And it is on this atlas, the cloud atlas, that the one can rely to navigate through a particular era.

Wow! The descriptions are getting better and more poetic! Thank you.

I think the last paragraph explains it from the author's point of view.

Steve wrote: "In fact, "Cloud Atlas" is the first Mitchell book I read. That's interesting, Ronan."

Thanks Steve! Great discussion here. Just wanted to add the fact that Tom dropped in the intro video about Cloud Atlas. Apparently, Yoko Ono's first husband composed a piece of music called Cloud Atlas. This has huge connections to number9dream, Mitchell's second book: The protagonist is a huge Lennon fan and dreams about meeting him. Also, number9 on the white album was composed in collaboration with Ono. Finally, Mitchell himself was born in Merseyside (as was I!) and is married to a Japanese woman.

Not sure how all of that ties into some of the preceding philosophical discussions though :)

I believe there may be some overlap here with
http://www.xkcd.com/1117/
;-)

Here's the quote from the book also in reference to the title. Sorry if it's been posted already:

"What wouldn't I give now for a never-changing map of the ever-constant ineffable? To possess, as it were, an atlas of clouds."

I think this fits the idea I shared earlier of clouds, the "ever-constant ineffable," representing the world and the civilizations, always changing. Then the "never-changing map," the constant soul of the characters with the birth mark, it is the atlas of clouds (meaning "for" clouds).

**Sploiers.** I think the movie version broadens and alters this concept by using multiple actors some of whom play souls that actually end up evolving/devolving. I think in the movie it's about "forces" representing the atlas, which also makes a lot of sense to me.