Fantasy Book Club discussion

I just bought the first of the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind at this amazing used bookstore near my apartment. I read a whole bunch of reviews on it, and it seemed like people either absolutely loved it or absolutely hated it. I'm sure many of you have read it, so what are your thoughts?

Hey, Kelsey. I've only read the first two in the series, but liked them a lot. I have the third on my stack of to-read books. Oh, and I read the prequel novella, Debt of Bones awhile back too.

I would really like to finish the series eventually. I like them, but haven't decided yet if it belongs in the same category as the fantasy series of George R.R. Martin, Robert Jordan, and Steven Erikson, which are my favorites in this field....

This is one of my favorites. Although some of the books drag a little, such as Temple of the Winds. But most of the books are very good.

Sword of Truth is a GREAT series! I have read all but the last two or three books, and I was never let down by any of them. The villain is properly evil and insidious, and the magic system is very well thought out and executed.

This series is also one that I'm interested in. Debt of Bones and Wizard's First Rule are both great! I love Terry Goodkind's writing style and am looking forward to reading the rest of his books.

I'm in the camp that loves this series. It was actually the series that got me hooked on reading adult fantasy. :)

Awesome! Hearing all these wonderful things about it makes me more excited to read it!

I just finished reading Faith of the Fallen last night and so far my opinion is kind of mixed. I loved the first two books, the third I thought was "meh". The fourth and fifth almost killed the series for me, it felt so dragged out for such little advancement, almost made me not want to read Faith of the Fallen. I'm kind of glad I did finish it because it feels like the story is starting to move at a quicker pace now. Not as good as the first two but definately better the the other 3 I've read.

I might be the odd one out here, but I read Wizards First Rule a while ago and didn't like it at all. The dialogue was bad, the story was pretty cliche with a lot of borrowed ideas (like in the case of the sword of truth revealing the truth about your enemy, which is the same exact concept in the Sword of Shannara.) Also, Richard and Kalan (was that her name?) pretty much fell in love after exhanging a few passages of dialogue... that just don't happen in real life!
Sometimes I don't mind run of the mill type fantasy if I'm in the mood for it, but this book just rubbed me the wrong way.

I undertsand what you are saying, it does seem to move rather quickly. On top of that, I saw a lot of things that reminded me of Wheel of Time, especially once you get deeper into the series. Still, I think it' a pretty good story in it's own right: I like how magic works, and all the different magical creatures out there like Dreamwalkers and Confessors. It's interesting.

Josh wrote: "I might be the odd one out here, but I read Wizards First Rule a while ago and didn't like it at all. The dialogue was bad, the story was pretty cliche with a lot of borrowed ideas (like in the ca..."

that just don't happen in real life? It's fantasy :D

I read a lot of fantasy where character interactions are not only realistic, but the bread and butter of the story. I've just become a little spoiled I think. There are a lot of fantastic writers that contribute to the fantasy genre, so for me, when writing comes along that seems sub par, the explanation of "well, it's just fantasy" doesn't really work for me. The genre shouldn't be typecast that way. We can have realistic situations/dialogue and a fantastical setting at the same time.

I'm not sure I can disagree with some of the things you said Josh but I don't agree with it al. Its true I feel that the dialogue isn't that great and the story can be cliche. But in all fairness most fantasy books follow a certain formula and ideas are reused or borrowed.

Also the sword of truth may sound like the sword of shannara but they're totally different. The sword of truth is only a symbol or tool for the seeker, it doesn't have any truth revealing abilities.

I don't want to give the impression that I think they are bad books, (and I did only read the first one, to be fair to Mr. Goodkind), I just wanted to give the reasons why I didn't particularly enjoy the first one. I know a lot of people love the series and I'll be willing to give them another shot in the future. The good thing about reading things a second time, is that I go in with certain expectations and then end up enjoying it a lot more.

Great series so far. I'll be starting the third book as soon as possible. I only hope it's as good as the first two, particularly the second, just maybe not quite as long. Haha. I was kind of disappointed in how the second book ended however, not to say it wasn't any good, just that it was a bit rushed in my opinion. Just slightly upsetting at how he had spent a good 600+ pages developing the story, and then wrapped it up all too quickly.

keep reading... the whole series is amazing!

I am definitely the odd one out. The first couple of books in the series are okay, but Josh's comments above about poor dialogue and cliches are well put. After the third book or so, the series rapidly spirals downhill, and not only borrows from Jordan's Wheel of Time, but from itself. Each book repeats the previous, and is about some kind of rescue of Richard or Kahlan. The bad guys are uniformly straw men, with no depth whatsoever, and Richard is just so perfect a hero. The contrast is as blatant as it is unrealistic and ham-handed. Here is Hitler's opinion (warning, there is a little foul language in the sub-titles) on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCuMN3...

Although this is fantasy, it does not need to insult our intelligence. Also, Goodkind really starts to push his very simplistic ultra-Rayndian philosophy with long, wind-bag passages about the evils of altruism. By the time I hit Naked Empire, I had enough. That one hit the bin. I could not take one more rescue story about Richard and Kahlan.

Make no mistake, Goodkind is not in the same league as GRR Martin, Steven Erikson or Janny Wurts, all of whom write big fat epic fantasy, none of whom use fantasy cliches, all of whom use layers of depth and texture to their plots, worlds, characters and themes. I advise that you quit Goodkind after the third book, and look to authors like Martin, Wurts, Erikson, Abercrombie, Lynch, Rothfuss, Carol Berg, Feist etc. if you want really good fantasy. There is so much better stuff than Goodkind, it is a shame to spend your time on his stuff.

I may very well be flamed for this...

Lochaber wrote: "Also, Goodkind really starts to push his very simplistic ultra-Rayndian philosophy with long, wind-bag passages about the evils of altruism."

I stopped reading this series for this very reason. I made it to Faith of the Fallen and then quit. In fact, I gave away all my hardcover editions of this series. I only kept the first one in mass market paperback in a well read condition.

I got pretty tired of Goodkind's series after the first few books. I think I stuck with it to the 7th or 8th hoping for a change, but it kept getting worse. I don't think I'm a very critical reader, but I am not a particularly patient one. Repetition & pointlessness can drive me off quickly. I agree with others here that his later books suffered from both.

I gave up in the second book. Just awful stuff.

I am aware of at least 2 fantasy book forums where the series regarded as a pile of turd. (Mind you, I didn't read it).
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?...

It is a 44th thread about how bad is SoT and TG. Each thread is 20 pages long.
Another forum is malazan empire....generally speaking SoT and TG are looked upon as disgrace to fantasy world by most of fantasy fans.

There is almost unanimous agreement on a number of "higher-end" sites, such at Science Fiction and Fantasy Chronicles in the UK www.sffchronicles.co.uk (a fan site), and www.FantasyLiterature.net (a fantasy book reviewing site).

Pile of turd. Perhaps TG could use that as a character in his next book, along side the evil chicken and Betty the wondergoat.

I really enjoyed this series. There was some repitition as previously mentioned but not that much that it made me stop reading. Finished the whole series.

I think it's a good series for people just getting in to fantasy but if you are well versed in the genre, then it becomes pretty much unbearable.

I absolutely loved the first four, then book 6. but beyond that, i only read them not for the pleasure of reading, but just to finish the series.

Great series. The first few books are great, and the last three are absolutely phenomenal. Almost Everything in between is o.k. but definitely not boring. Except for Pillars of Creation, i've read them all and was recommended that I not read that one book because it contributes absolutely nothing to the plot of he series. Definitely recommend the series if you have the time. The sixth book, Faith of the Fallen, is probably one of the best of the series in and of itself. The other books rely a lot on what happens in previous books or what has yet to happen. But this is just all around amazing.

Arthur, though the fantasy-reading world regards SoT as a disgrace, TG is the first one to say that his books are not fantasy, but rather a romantic/heroic adventures, exploring important human themes.

Never mind that there are wizards, witches, dragons, strange creatures, magic galore, women who can steal your mind (permanently) Temples of the Winds, wizard's castles, magical barriers, etc. and so on, and that's without getting into the whole Mord-Sith thing.

And the important human themes? Altruism bad. Self-reliance good. Black and White.

"Help! I've fallen and I can't get up! Please, Richard Rahl, give me a half-hour speech on the nobility of the human spirit and everything will be okay!"

And it is not fantasy.

RIGHT.

It might just be me, but I find it strange that someone who hates Jordan's series is that impressed with Goodkind's. And I only say that because what struck me about Goodkind's books is how much he seemed to be trying to BE Jordan. To each his own, I suppose. Just seems akin to running something through a copier and saying the copy looks better than the original.

Chris, I have to agree. As SoT progressed, it appeared to me to be more and more a knock-off of Jordan, whose plotting and characterization outstrips Goodkind at every turn, despite the later severe lagging of Jordan's series in books 7-10. This being said, I did tire of the excessive clothing descriptions, and at all the braid-pulling, sniffing, and spanking of adult women (the latter of which Goodkind copied and then amplified to the extreme with his gratuitous sado-masochist-masogynist passages). Had those been edited out, the books would have crisper, but even with them, the first several are damn good books.

I quit TG at Naked Empire, much to my shame (that I didn't quit much earlier). It is SoT that taught me to quit reading when what you are reading is crap, so for that, I owe it a debt of gratitude, for I am liberated from having to finish a crummy book or series. It would take a lot of persuading from some pretty impressive persuaders for me to waste money on his writing again.

The Law of Nines does fit to Sword of the Truth in some way. I am on Naked Empire after done reading The Law of Nines and after Pillar of Creation. I just love how Goodkind write to the book and I just absolute love it. I hope Naked Empire is lot better than Pillar of Creations which I dislike in some way of it. I believe Pillar of Creation could be bored and wasting the little time, but it is important to keep that in mind for the next few book I believe.

Really guys? SoT and WoT the same? I couldn't disagree more. But that's just my opinion. The characters, the struggles, the themes, are all incredibly different to me. Personally, I despise WoT now. I made it through the first 5 books and I now hate everything about the series; the characters, the plot, the writing style, its all slow and annoying. Again, I don't want to offend any avid fans. I don't even give me opinions that much credit as these two and eragon are basically the only fantasy books I've ever read. Hence the rrason I joined this club, to find some great fantasy books and explore the genre. ;)

No, I never implied that they were the same. But when I read Stone of Tears, I checked the copyright date to see who'd published first. Let's just say while I read Goodkind, I had several strong moments of deja vu.

Christian, in my opinion you have experienced some of the most mediocre series that fantasy has to offer. This is not surprising, as both Paolini and Goodkind were really heavily pushed with their first books, and as a result gained a strong readership among non-traditional fans.

Paolini has been strongly criticized for borrowing heavily from other series, including most notably Anne McCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern, which you should try, especially the first three novels. Lost of action, fast-paced and energetic. Now, Paolini was only 17 when Eragon was published, and his parents were the publishers who published the book. I think he is a young writer who should be lauded for what he has done, but he should not have been published. He should have been told "great effort, but you should be aware of a few problems...". No author's first effort should be published, because they are learning. Paolini, and his readership, would have been better-served to have been sent back to the drawing board.

Terry Goodkind is another kettle of fish altogether. I liked Wizard's First Rule, and the next couple, but by Temple of the Winds I was losing interest. By Faith of the Fallen I was actively pissed off, and 2/3 of the way through Naked Empire, I heaved it across the room into the garbage bin. TG's plots just began repeating themselves: Richard and Kahlan get separated by some sort of nasty event or person, the one is forced to comply, and the other slowly makes their way through a number of difficulties until they are re-united. Then, in the midst of difficulties, Richard waxes on the nobility of freedom and the human spirit. Meanwhile, there is a bad guy in the background who is so thoroughly evil that someone just has to kill him. TG could take a good lesson on doing bad guys by watching the Sorpranos. The bad guys are likeable, because you begin to understand why they do what they do.

Christian, as you are a new reader of fantasy, I wouldn't recommend you to more heavy stuff like The Malazan Book of the Fallen, The Wars of Light and Shadow or A Song of Ice and Fire. Those are amazingly rich and complex stories, but they are series that you come to after reading easier stuff. But they are much, much better than Sword of Truth. You can really see what an author can do.

I would direct you to the Pern stories, mentioned above, Raymond Feist is fabulous, Terry Brooks would be okay (though there is a knock-off element to Sword of Shannara), David Eddings' Belgariad and Malloreon, the original Dragonlance series by Weis and Hickman, The Deed of Paksennarion. Once you try some of those, then writers like Guy Gavriel Kay, Carol Berg, CJ Cherryh, Robin Hobb, Katherine Kerr, Katherine Kurtz would be a next stop.

Then, go after the big meaty epics by Wurts, Martin and Erikson. You've got to grow into this stuff, otherwise, it is too easy to get turned off by biting off more than you can chew. My advantage is that I grew up reading fantasy as fantasy itself was developing towards what it is today. Of course, your advantage is that you have a huge pile of different stuff to choose from.

I thought Faith of the Fallen was the beautiful story to show everyone a stone of emotion. I just can't believe Richard destroy a stone and crumble to the ground by Brother Narv told him so. However, great story.

Lochaber wrote: "No author's first effort should be published, because they are learning. ..."

My first novel (The Flame in the Bowl Unbinding the Stone), my second novel (A Warrior Made), and so far everything I've ever written has been published or will be. The first short story I ever wrote has just been re-released.

Congratulations, Marc. You might be one of those rare exceptions to the rule, but surely you wrote an awful lot of stuff prior to finishing your first novel? Or you took some time and sought out editorial advice for quite a while prior to publication? I have corresponded with a number of authors whose first novels remain locked in filing cabinets never to be seen, with instructions to their Executors to destroy them upon the author's death.

I am not familiar with your work, alas. Have you enjoyed good marketing from your publisher, and decent sales? I have not seen it before.

I found Eragon juvenile and unoriginal, in that it borrowed heavily from many sources, most likely from the stuff that Paolini was reading before or while he wrote it. Paolini has enjoyed quite a bit of commercial success, but his writing does not support the sales. The push of the publisher has made his numbers for him. It certainly has not made him a better, or more original, writer, and he could really stand to undergo some major refining, particularly in the plotting and characterization. Had he not had parent publishers, I suspect that he would have received the standard rejection letter.

Stone was the first novel I ever wrote, Warrior the second. Some years before I had taken a creative writing course but nothing of note resulted.

Stone was written twice, and the first version was quite poor. Only the first half of that version survives, fortunately. The computer I finished it on crashed and took v1 with it. V2 was published without much revision at all.

My publisher, like most, has no time or energy to devote to marketing, it's up to the authors to do that. I don't get the marketing thing, but I can sell it very well one-on-one. If you haven't read my books before I hope you will give them a try.

I enjoyed the sword of truth very much. There are three books in the series that never seem to end, and sometimes the deep reflections on Richards convivtions get a bit too long. I dont think its in the level of GRRM, Rothfuss or even Feist, but I do think that its similar to Jordan.

Marco wrote: "I enjoyed the sword of truth very much. There are three books in the series that never seem to end, and sometimes the deep reflections on Richards convivtions get a bit too long. I dont think its..."

good respond. :)

I always see this series whenever I'm browsing in the fantasy section of the bookstore but never thought of picking it up (I guess the number of books in this series sort of frightened me off---no more room in my bookcase at the moment, lol) plus, as someone mentioned earlier, the reviews are either they loved it or they hated it. Nonetheless, I picked up Wizard's First Rule recently and am looking forward to reading it =)

You did the right thing to do, Li :) Hope you'll like it. I'm on my last book of the series.

Li wrote: "I always see this series whenever I'm browsing in the fantasy section of the bookstore but ..."

I know what you mean, Li. I also have been intimidated by the size of this series. Also, there are so many mixed reviews - love/hate. I did finally read the first book and I really enjoyed it. I haven't started book 2 yet, but I'm planning on it. I'm glad that you decided to give it a shot also.

I think most peple agree that its a good series with the caveat that you will have three books that you wish had never been written.

Now if you just started reading Wizards First Rule, you are in for a treat. You know, that feeling of starting a series with the hope that its as good as your favorite, the long nights reading. I envy anyone who is about to read either Wizards First Rule, Magician by Feist or The Name of The Wind.

Meleah:

If you like the subsequent books, keep reading. If you don't: STOP! They don't get better if you don't like them. I liked the first, and then a steadily accelerating decline occurred for me. I threw Naked Empire into the trash, but should have stopped three books earlier. However, others love these books.

I agree with Naked Empire, I really did'nt want to say the name of the books I did not like so you could be unbiased, but I did think that the last two were decent, and they bring the story to a conclusion.