A Game of Thrones discussion

Okay, I've only read the first book, so if you're going to discuss plot points in the next ones, either please don't say them or hide them under spoiler tags.

So I've noticed that even fans of this book seem to hate Sansa Stark with a passion. Most of them say that she's weak and stupid, citing her numerous moments of stupidity throughout the books. And I've always thought: yes, she's stupid, but at least she pays the price for her stupidity. She's forced to face the consequences of her actions. Martin doesn't try to glorify Sansa, or act like she's smart.

The following are common arguments against Sansa:

1. Sansa tattles on her father--yes, she does, and her father gets killed for it. At least she learned her lesson, right? She actually grows the hell up to learn from her mistakes. It's not as bad as, say, Bella Swan jumping off a cliff and whatnot.

2. Sansa trusts and loves Joffrey--yes, she does, and in the end she hates his guts. A lot. She even yells at him that she'll never marry him. Again, she may have been stupid, but at least she pays the price for her stupidity.

So what do you guys think? Does Sansa deserve the backlash she's gotten? Is she really such an antifeminist and weak character? I think she is, but in the end, she develops and grows into someone stronger and smarter. I don't think characters have to be awesome from the beginning--it's also okay if they develop that awesomeness as the story progresses.

I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the first book and after over 4000 pages, he has yet to really conclude anything. Without going into spoiler detail, it is like a soap opera that never ends, but leaves you hanging book after book. He brings in character after character, creating new stories within the previous ones, as though he needs to throw in someone else's point of view. Sure, those stories are interesting, but everything else is left hanging. Now I sit waiting for the next installment to see if I will ever find out if there is a happy ending somewhere along the line and will get sucked in again. I think he did this by design. Just my opinion, but I really do like endings.

Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the first book and a..."

I think there are two books yet to come out. The next one is called The Winds of Winter.

Jocelyn wrote: "Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the fir..."
I'll probably read them. Because I find myself, all of a sudden, wishing I knew what happened to Arya and Sansa...uggh.

Marina wrote: "I love Sansa and think she's a pretty great character. After reading a fair share of medieval historical fiction I can say with confidence that she is behaving like a true medieval noble young woma..."

Who knew the author planned 7 books? If I had known that I would have waited to read them all at once. I seriously thought there was only five.

Originally, I hated Sansa too when I first saw the show. (I watched the series before picking up the books). But when I got to reading the series, her character is a lot more likeable, imo.

She's kinda weak at first like Bella from Twilight.. only thing different that Sansa's character developed whereas Bella didn't.

dont hate sansa that much. she's just a 13 year old girl. its natural for an adolescent

Tara wrote: "I am so angry at the author of this series. I got sucked into reading all five books (is there more yet?)just to find out what eventually happens to the people still alive from the first book and a..."

True that!

We're all so quick to cast the first stone. She was a kid and she was scared. How many people would really take the heroic decision if it meant their death? Not so many.

Sansa is a highborne. Everything she does is ladylike. She is beautiful,elegant and she has long auburn hair. She can love and there is loyalty in her love. How could anyone not like her? Just because she pledged her love and loyalty to someone so unworthy as Joffrey, doesn't make her despicable. She is just an adolescent, an immature... totally oblivious to the rules of the world. But no doubt that she could make a damn good wife.

Just wait. All the Stark kids (including Jon) seem to have inner strength, although some show it sooner than others. And yes, we are all waiting on George RR Martin to continue so we know what happens. Book 5 only took many years to appear. Perhaps the TV show will motivate Book 6 to show up sooner.

Dipendra wrote: "Sansa is a highborne. Everything she does is ladylike. She is beautiful,elegant and she has long auburn hair. She can love and there is loyalty in her love. How could anyone not like her? Just beca..."

People hate her because she tattled on her dad, and is weak. People like to ignore the fact that none of that is really her fault--can anyone be blamed for wanting a perfect life so badly they even try to pretend it's more perfect than it really is?

And at least Sansa develops into someone stronger, whereas Bella Swan from Twilight doesn't at all. IMO, anyway.

I don't see the point of defending a character from a book?

And I see even less point of attacking one.

You don't like Sansa?

Fine, we are not supposed to like everyone. What's the problem?

i think sansa was meant to illustrate what the highborn people are portrayed/supposed to be like, it allowed the reader to see just how different they are from appearances, in the book Sansa finds this out the hard way, for people to hate her I think is unfair, she has only done what she has been told, trying to win over the queen and the Prince (who she was supposed to marry) it doesn't seem strange to me that she told on her father she in her naivety was loyal to the crown, she remains a little selfish in the books but on the whole i think she learns form her mistakes and is turning into a strong female character

Kat wrote: "i think sansa was meant to illustrate what the highborn people are portrayed/supposed to be like, it allowed the reader to see just how different they are from appearances, in the book Sansa finds ..."

Yes, exactly! I have no idea why people hate Sansa so much...she actually faces the consequences of her actions, for one, which is uncommon among "weak" characters.

Zoran wrote: "I don't see the point of defending a character from a book?

And I see even less point of attacking one.

You don't like Sansa?

Fine, we are not supposed to like everyone. What's the problem?"

No, I posted this because I saw so much hate for Sansa, even coming from Game of Thrones fans, not just haters. It's kind of like Twilight fans asking why people hate Twilight so much, except this is just a character instead of a whole series.

My main problem with Sansa is that she sees Joffrey is basically a sociopath, and still spews this night in shining army fairy tale crap about him. How can any person with two brain cells to rub together still be romantically obsessed to a ridiculous degree with someone who ordered a little boy killed bloody for the impertinence of touching him? Sure, she's a young teen at the beginning, but that goes beyond the standard teenage blind foolishness if you ask me.

Frank wrote: "My main problem with Sansa is that she sees Joffrey is basically a sociopath, and still spews this night in shining army fairy tale crap about him. How can any person with two brain cells to rub to..."

But she does eventually see Joffrey for who he is, and she genuinely hates Joffrey after her father's execution.

Btw, don't tell me if worships the ground Joffrey walks on in the later books, because I haven't read them yet.

Jocelyn wrote: "It's kind of like Twilight fans... "

LOL you are right :-))

A lot of people read books in order to identify with the main character. I don't think many people see many elements of themselves in Sansa - at least not ones that they'd like to admit to - so they assume that she's not a good character or a well drawn one.

Alex wrote: "A lot of people read books in order to identify with the main character. I don't think many people see many elements of themselves in Sansa - at least not ones that they'd like to admit to - so th..."

Well, I didn't really identify with her either...in the beginning. By the end of the book I thought she had grown significantly. Or grown enough not to deserve the backlash she's gotten.

Alex wrote: "A lot of people read books in order to identify with the main character. I don't think many people see many elements of themselves in Sansa - at least not ones that they'd like to admit to - so th..."

You are right, but those people are wrong :-))
There shouldn't be only brave, smart and good characters in books. There are stupid, bad and all kinds of other people in the world, and they should also be characters in books.

There should be books with ugly, cowardly villains as main characters, so that people like me can identify with them :-)))

I think George R R Martin meant for Sansa to be despicable. Good guys can't always be perfect. Then there's the contradiction of...the good guys aren't always the good guys. One of the protagonists is on the bad guy's side, remember.

Whether she's despicable or not, I think works either way. One of the biggest satisfactions from reading the book, for me, was hating Sansa in the beginning, then cheering for her as she finally saw Joffrey for who he was and gaining herself in reality.

Weak? No way. She was frivolous to start with, but then she had to grow up pretty fast.

As a character, I think her evolution so far has been really interesting. Yes, she had so much trust in Cersei that she betrayed her father, which tragic consequences...boy, did she pay for her mistake! And then she had to find enough inner strength to survive under Cersei and Joffrey's eyes, and pretend to be on their side (because, realistically, what was she gonna do?!) When I started reading the books, I didn't like her much, but that only made her character arc more satisfying, for me. Can't wait to see where George Martin takes her in the final books.

Reading through this thread made me wonder why you guys don't pick on Hodor. >_>...

Really, all this nitpicking over her character is just silly if you ask me. Yes she starts out as one of the weakest characters. But to be honest, I thought Catelyn's character was even worse than Sansa's, since all she did was tell Robb's part of the story.

Part of the beauty of the series is how the characters grow and change. As you read deeper into the series, you understand how Sansa is influenced by those around her, just like Arya, you witness a maturation of both wisdom and heart. Sansa was certainly a very weak character...

I love Sansa! I found that her character got more interesting and deep in each book she made an appearance. She is definitely one of my fav characters in the series.

Sansa is the typical kind of girl who only cares about her looks and stupid romance. She's shallow and the only thing she has is her beauty. GO ARYA.

Jenn wrote: "Sansa is the typical kind of girl who only cares about her looks and stupid romance. She's shallow and the only thing she has is her beauty. GO ARYA."

Oh, damn. I LOVE ARYA!

Arya is the best character in the book in my opinion, so yes; GO ARYA!!!!

I also thought at first that Sansa was a vapid character. But she did grow up privileged and protected in her castle, and was taught that a knight in shining armor would come along and make life even more perfect. Arya was the rebel who always got into trouble, and Sansa was rewarded for her complying behavior.

When the world changed with the Lannisters taking power, Sansa discovered that people can't be taken at face value. They lie and break promises, they punish even when she is compliant. She is alone and surviving as best she can. She is a child in a viper's nest.

By the end of book one I think she has been educated on how the world really works, and she copes as best she can. No, she's not Arya, but everyone is different, even siblings. Ned Stark was dead even if she hadn't said anything to Cersei. She spoke to the queen to try to save her father. I think that was her turning point, along with the beatings her supposed Prince Charming gave her. I agree she's developed her game face by acting the vapid princess so that she can survive her ordeal.

I didn't care for her prissy ways at the start either, but I feel badly for her now.

Nadine wrote: "I also thought at first that Sansa was a vapid character. But she did grow up privileged and protected in her castle, and was taught that a knight in shining armor would come along and make life e..."

I think also, Arya had help at the end of the first book whereas Sansa was pretty much alone. Arya faced more upfront violence, and Sansa had to face political intrigue, which is a lot more difficult. Not to say that Arya had it easy, because she certainly didn't, but she also had a bit of help, a few friends she could mostly trust, and her training from that sword guy whose name I can't remember. Everything Sansa knew came from fairytales, pretty much. She lived a sheltered life, and who can blame her for being a bit selfish? Arya is too, and so are we all! (Btw, I'm agreeing with what you said, in case that isn't clear...)

Marina wrote: "I love Sansa and think she's a pretty great character. After reading a fair share of medieval historical fiction I can say with confidence that she is behaving like a true medieval noble young woma..."

I love historical fiction and Sansa is the weirdest female lead(ish) character. Grow some already!

I'm done with the first three, and while I won't give details for spoiler reasons, from what I have read so far, I think Sansa's character is one of the best-developed I have come across in a long time (and I read a LOT). She is a sheltered pretty girl who's parents want the best for her and while they know that there are bad people in the world, they don't dwell on this and try to live their lives to the best of their ability and instill this in their children as well. In their ideal world, Sansa will grow up and marry a nobleman of some sort and have a happy life running a castle. They hope for this, even though they know that power is tenuous. Sansa is a young teenage girl who loves pretty things and boys. All girls do at that age. She wants to believe the best of the man she will marry and looks past his faults to the good she wants to see. Over time, it becomes apparent that he is not what he appears.

In the first book, we mostly see the initial process of her disillusionment, learning that the world is not always a happy place. She later learns what it takes to survive, though she does not have the initiative and fortitude that Arya does. She survives politically and may be in a position of power later because of this. But she watches those around her and begins to learn who is trustworthy and who is not. She is broken, but over time begins to learn and adapt. I wish I could say I would have been stronger in defending others in her position of fear (and a hostage, I might add) but I cannot say that I would be. She lives in a world of fear...and she's just a teenager! I'm very excited to see where Martin takes her character through the rest of the series.

Jamesepowell wrote: "What is striking about Sansa is that she grew up in the home of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully and still came out dream-struck and clueless."

As a matter of fact, I think Sansa is very much like Ned - she's essentially a younger, female Ned at the beginning of GoT (but without his warm heart). Just like Ned is too caught up in his ideas of honour to see what people are really like, Sansa too is caught up in her ideas of chivalry and romance to see people as they really are (specifically Joffrey). Ned pays for his blindness with his life; Sansa pays for her foolishness with her father's life, and her own imprisonment in a gilded cage. In a way, she is a lot more intelligent and mature than Ned, as Ned, in spite of being an adult and a war hero, was unable to grow beyond his limitations, while Sansa, at the age of 11 or 12, is able to learn from her mistakes and grow up.

I don't personally like Sansa a lot - in GoT, I found her really annoying until her final chapter. But she grew on me in CoK.

I dont think she is particularly dislikable, I think that she plays the part of a typical girl in the time the books were set in, in fact I think that it is in her character that we see some of the most growth and maturation, she had always been the perfect child whereas Arya was the rebellious one, so Sansa did what she had been taught to do, yes she was stupid and yes she was punished for it, by the end of the third book she changes from that character into one who is a lot more aware of the world around her.

I liked Arya better than Sansa, but I imagine that's because I can identify more with her. Sansa has grown up learning how to be a lady and has been living in an illusion that she would marry a handsome prince and live the high life as befit her highborne birth. She is the tragic symbol of the classic fairy tale princess that's been turned upon it's head--love and dreams unfulfilled, her whole world and everything she thought was true crashing down around her, her entire future as she knew it is destroyed. In a way, Sansa has lost much, much, more than Arya because everything she thought to be true has been systematically proved false, whereas Arya is living the life she's been more attracted to all along (living in the wild independently, taking different identities, putting her intelligence and street smarts to good use, fighting like a warrior). I have more pity for Sansa than hate or dislike--I don't think she is necessarily weak, just disillusioned and lost, struggling to find her place in a completely new world to her, a world full of deceit and lies. I've only read up to book four as yet and I can see her struggling to cope and find that place. I certainly hope she does learn to live meaningfully and survive her disillusionment and eventually find a somewhat happy ending, although given some of the events that have happened I wouldn't put it past Martin to throw us another twist before the end.

I had the usual response to Sansa at first; it was frustrating to see her be so easily fooled and led astray. But she learns from her mistakes and gains wisdom and even possibly a cunning that may serve her well as she matures. She is often without hope but never without heart. Arya is easy to like from the beginning but her path leads to her taking a lot of dark stuff into her character. Both sisters change over the course of the books and will continue to evolve in the next two, I expect.

Jamesepowell wrote: "Mitali wrote: As a matter of fact, I think Sansa is very much like Ned"

I get what you are saying and while I don't think you are completely off, there is no way, no F in way, that Ned would ever..."

I have to disagree on that point, because Ned admitted to being a traitor to save his family, even though he would have to lie to do so. He was not disloyal, but he was willing to trade his principle of utmost honesty to everyone in order to save the lives of his children. I'm not saying this is wrong, of course, but that it could be seen as a slight on his integrity. In the same instance, Sansa herself called her father a traitor to save herself but tried her very best to provide a circumstance where Joffrey could look powerful by offering amnesty to her father and preserve his life. She fully expected him to pardon Ned. In fact, CERSEI even expected it and had planned it. So it's not Sansa's fault that Joffrey decided to change his mind and simply show a display of power soley for his own vanity.

@ Christie

Agreed! I'd say I both like and pity her, though. Even if, I won't deny, I thought her DESPICABLE in the beginning of the book.

Susan wrote: "She is often without hope but never without heart."

Brilliantly put.

Jamesepowell wrote: "Mitali wrote: As a matter of fact, I think Sansa is very much like Ned"

I get what you are saying and while I don't think you are completely off, there is no way, no F in way, that Ned would ever..."

I think you missed my point completely. I wasn’t comparing Ned and Sansa’s morals, and I explicitly stated that Sansa does not have Ned’s warm heart. The parallel I was drawing was regarding their attitudes to the world: they both expect reality to conform to what they want it to be, rather than what it really is. In Sansa’s case, the trait manifests itself as an obsession with romance stories and myths, and the inability to see that the boy she likes is a complete monster. In Ned’s case, it manifests itself as an inability to realize that not everyone follows his code of honour, and that people like Littlefinger have their own agendas and will happily stab you in the back if it suits them.

I think Ned was aware of people's nature, but realizes he can't spend his entire life just being suspicious and afraid of everyone and while others may not share his morals, he is still going to stand up for them.

Well, Ned can be a little delusional sometimes. Like he thought he was giving Cersei a chance to flee, but really, he was just walking into his own death trap.

Jamesepowell wrote: "Mitali wrote: "I think you missed my point completely."

I don't think I missed it; I just disagree with it. Ned doesn't expect other people to live by his code of conduct. He has, after all, bee..."

Agreed, that's what I meant to say, you just expressed it better. Having your own moral code and being determined to live by it does not mean you think or expects others to as well. He's wise enough to know better. Doesn't mean he doesn't strive for the good, though.

Anti-feminist is an interesting term to use. I don't think authors should be plugging feminism (or attacking it), and women are just as capable of stupidity as men (although it must be said that the most epic feats of idiocy do tend to have masculine origins).

I also think that her father, whilst portrayed as noble and dutiful, is even more naive. Sansa's a young girl in whom the future monarch shows an interest. I think she can be forgiven being young and foolish, given she's young and foolish.

Eddard, on the other hand, completely cocks up his efforts to take control of King's Landing and even tips off his worst enemy. There's being honourable, and then there's being thick. And he's old enough to know better.

As the original post suggested, Sansa does develop as a character. She might also suffer from comparison with Arya, who is so much more likeable.

Jamesepowell wrote: "Mitali wrote: "I think you missed my point completely."

I don't think I missed it; I just disagree with it. Ned doesn't expect other people to live by his code of conduct. He has, after all, bee..."

Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree, as that's not my interpretation of Ned's character and behaviour at all. IMO, Ned is perfectly aware on an intellectual level that things like treachery exist - he's not a moron, after all. But on an emotional level, he is simply unable to follow the thought processes of people who think treacherous thoughts. He tries to do the right thing by everyone (giving priority to those who he thinks are in the right), but fails because he doesn't take into consideration that his enemies are most certainly not trying to do the right thing by him.

Ned was too noble for his own good. I don't want to get beaten up, but did anyone else sort of think he was a little dumb in parts?

I think Mitali has it right--Ned wants everyone to be happy and be treated fairly, but his enemies don't play by the same rules. Ned wants to believe the best in people, I think, and was reluctant to even realize who his enemies really were until it was too late. If he seemed dumb, I think it was because he was in denial of what was really going on and didn't expect his enemies would go to the lengths they did to protect themselves.

Jamesepowell wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Well, Ned can be a little delusional sometimes. Like he thought he was giving Cersei a chance to flee, but really, he was just walking into his own death trap."

When that conversat..."

I meant Eddard's own death trap, not Robert's. If he'd acted differently, he probably wouldn't have gotten killed.