Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion

Jessie, I think you should as well because I agree, they should have fangs but Edward is so dreamy, I don't even care. LOL. I do wish they slept though. Okay, I wish they slept and I wish they had actual fangs.

I had totally forgotten they don't have fangs - how could I forget that? Haha.

Susanne, I don't think anyone's implying that Jacob's the bad guy because he's in love with Bella. What makes him an unlikable character for me is that he pushes too hard. He hurts Bella, won't take no for an answer, and generally thinks he knows better than her where her life is concerned. That's why I personally don't like him at all. YMMV, of course. :)

heeheheee, I had my claws out when I wrote that huh! Sorry for the 'tone', but I guess what bothers me is that it's such a double standard. I mean Bella runs to him every chance she gets. I get irritated with her for that, she knows how much pain it causes him.

And, everyone talks how he pushes too hard, and that is true, he pushes incredibly hard... but he is trying to save her life, it's not like they are arguing over ice cream flavors.

Plus, he's young, he hasn't had the years Edward has to become wise about the world. I found Jacob's character to be honest and strong. Holy cow is he strong. I'm not sure what I would do if I were in his shoes. I think he's a much better friend than I'm capable of.

I really don't think that his sole reason for pushing too hard is to save her life, even though that probably is a big part of it. Like you said, he's young, and he's also jealous as hell. I wasn't fond of how he acted in book 3 up until he forced himself on her. That was a HUGE violation of Bella, and that turned me completely off of Jacob.

He could be a really great character if Meyer had had him back off of Bella and turn that intense focus elsewhere, but he seems to exist only to pine after Bella (caveat: I haven't read book 4 yet). With his short temper and his habit of disrespecting Bella's right to choose, I feel like he's a dangerous guy, and I don't care for him at all.

(Edited for clarity; I haven't had my caffeine yet!)

Fangirl, my exact feelings on one Mr. Jacob Black.

I agree too. I also try to keep in mind that he's really only 16 and those are very strong feelings. Of course, boys will be boys and can't think of anyone not loving them as much as they love themselves.

Hey, hope its ok that i just jump in the conversation! The only probelems I have with Jacob is that he sais he loves Bella but if he truly loved her he would not put stipulations on it! He has told Bella specifically over and over again that he will love her only as long as her heart still beats, Edward will love her no matter what, complete unconditional love, and thats what Bella deserves. If Jacob truly loved Bella then he would feel the same, not that Im saying he does not love her in his own way...he just doesnt love her the right way. They are deffinitly bad for eachother and im not just saying that becuase i am an all out "TEAM EDWARD" fangirl. Im saying that becuase no matter what, they always seem to cause eachother endless amounts of pain. I also agree with Fangirl, he is a hothead, and cannot seem to respect Bella and her choices and desicions.

lol sorry for the rant, this is one of those touchy subjects with me. =)

Lol, no prob, Courtney, everybody has an opinion on the subject after reading Meyer's books, I'm sure. ;)

Courtney, I totally agree that Jacob doesn't love her the right way. I don't think he is IN love with her although I can believe he does LOVE her as a person and a friend. I think that you are correct when you said that Edward will love her when she's old and gray regardless but Jacob's like 'oh i'll love u as long as u aren't dead'. Right there it says he's not mature enough to know what love is. At 16, you do not know what real love is. I am 28 and I can't even tell you what real love is. Edward is 17 and he may have lived longer than Jacob but when Edward was growing up, men and women thought differently. People were a lot more mature back then than they are now. You can see right there that Edward came from a completely different era by the fact that he would not take Bella's virginity without her being his wife first. What guy does that nowadays, especially a 16 year old guy!??!

So agewise, there is no comparsion between Edward and Jacob but it's obvious that Bella loves and wants to be with Edward so if Jacob really loved her, he'd accept it and not be such a douche and continue to try to break them up. I haven't gotten Breaking Dawn yet so I hope this all gets resolved in that one.

I just started reading Twilight last Thursday... I finished it and ran out and bought the rest of the series... breaking dawn included. I am in love with Edward. He's so dreamy and makes me want to be a vampire lol. THE MOST AMAZING BOOKS I'VE EVER READ!

I loved the way Stephanie wrapped everything up in BD. Some people hated it though and I finally left the Twilight group I was in because the discussions were getting silly.

I wanted these characters, who I'd grown to really care about, to have their happy ending.

Edward had the same effect on me, Samantha, LOL. I read all three last year while I was job hunting and fresh out of a breakup and Edward was a breath of fresh air. How can one be so hot and be so FICTIONAL?! lol

Lori, I hope I don't hate it. I doubt it since I loved the others so much but I did hate the last Harry Potter so..we'll see though!

Twilight was the first series I got into after I finished Harry so I will finish just for the sentimental reasons even if I hate it.

And I re-read the last chapter of Eclipse and I do want Jacob to get his happy ending and maybe I don't hate him. I just prefer Edward to him...pretty much like Bella. LOL

From what I've read and got from skimming thru the book, there is reasons for all taht bashing. There is some pretty unbelieveable stuff Stephenie said couldn't happen that happens. The one major unbelieveable scene is why I decided not to continue and just to savor the last 3 since I loved them so much.

I'll get around to reading it (I only got to page 50 before I got tired of it). Just not right now. So although I know the outcome, I'll probably pick it up again in a few months when all the hubbub has stopped.

I'm with you Ranata. I picked up the series for my oldest who is almost 12, and she kept complaining it was boring. So I grabbed the first book, made it to page 100 or so, and agreed with her.

Obviously it gets better, otherwise there wouldn't be so many rants and raves about it. I just don't see it. *shrug*

When I run out of stuff to read, I'll pick it up again.

I think most people who didn't like the book were invested in their own vision and therefore disappointed - but it seems this was Stephenie's vision all along.

I don't think anything happened that SM explicitly stated could not - I think people assumed it applied to male vampires also.

Amy, but that one thing she said couldn't happen that happened means she jumped the shark in her own series. It is her book so she can do whatever she wants but she basically contridicated herself. Of course if you assume the females can't have babies, why wouldn't it be the same for the males considering all bodily functions are now the venom that makes them vamps? That's a lame reason to say Oh, well, I never said it applied to the males. Thats ridiculous to me!

And Tricia, I loved the first one, was okay about the 2nd one and was blah about the 3rd one but this last one just sounds too unbelievable to me. There was a reason I liked the series and that was probably because it's what first introduced me to the paranormal and vamps. I've read better stuff that didn't jump the shark since I read the Saga and I can see now that it's not as great as I once thought.

The whole bodily fluids issue is so interesting to me. I'm on a vampire roll right now having just read Dead Until Dark and Dead Witch Walking. What IS the explination for how vampires get an errection since they don't have blood pumping through their veins? Sorry if this not an appropriate question but I'm just curious what everyone's opinions are. Should I start a new thread?? "Vampire Physiology 101?" LOL.

Jeaniene Frost (Night Huntress series) handles it by asserting that vampires can force/route blood wherever they want it.

Jess, this is true but Jeaniene didn't start her series saying something was impossible and then completely jumping the shark to make the ending work out. And Frost's vampires are 10 times better than Stephenie Meyers' vamps.

::::Halfway to the Grave spoiler below!:::

The protog in Halfway was born because her mother was raped by a vampire that hadn't been dead that long so he still had sperm that was 'active'.

Edward has been dead for 100 years and I'm pretty sure by this time, his sperm is dust. But considering Stephenie stated that once the venom gets into the body, all bodily functions cease, and even though she never outright said vamp men couldn't impregnate, we were lead to believe that is the same for them as well. If she's saying' Oh no I didn't say the mens' bodily functions ceased, I just said the women', then she's discriminating cuz if one can do it, so should the other, IMO.

I definitely agree that JF's way is more "realistic" - that sperm is only good for so long after being turned and blood can be willfully routed, etc. But the way I look at BD, it seemed like there was no prior precedent set for male vampires and human women. No one thought it was possible (in the Twilight world), so it was just as much a shock to them as it was to us. I read an interview where SM said she was very careful how she handled the vamps and pregnancy issue because she knew what was in store for B & E.

I can see how you and many others feel it's a "jump the shark" situation, I just don't view it quite that way. But then I am very willing to suspend disbelief and be forgiving of these kinds of things, so I'm sure that's why I was able to enjoy that aspect of the book.

I'm glad you were able to enjoy that aspect. It's just stupid to me that men can still have living sperm whereas a woman's body is basically no longer able to carry a child. And I do agree that nobody had ever tested the theory but how could that be? You mean to tell me all this time, no vamps have slept with humans? Really? I mean it's not farfetched, I just thought that was a cop out. Bella got everything she wanted including Jacob. She didn't have to struggle or lose anything. That's not realistic especially since SM kept preparing us for her eventual change and telling us how hard it would be, only for her to be the only person EVER to change and be blood crazed. Again, that's not believable.

I didn't like that twist or the other one with Jacob and you know who. I can't read it simply because I don't agree with those choices. I'm glad you liked it and I'm glad others out there did as well. She did her job since not everyone hated it. I'm glad that some people got their happy endings for Jacob and Edward and Bella.

In my head, it's not necessarily that E had living sperm. Maybe venom contains the biological info necessary to procreate. Maybe it's just "magic". It's not explained.

I'm not a huge fan of some of the imprinting storylines either. I was weirded out when Quil imprinted on a toddler (she was two, iirc?), but I (grudgingly) accepted that it's not a sexual thing when they're little. It's still icky to me, though. I just try to view it as someone being intensely loving and protective of another person. Soul mates.

I definitely understand the complaint that Bella sacrificed nothing. Everyone (characters) expected things to go differently for her than they did, so we (readers) had to as well. Turns out she was "special" - the usual rules don't apply to her. I can see how that feels like a copout.

My complaint with the events of Breaking Dawn was that it felt like something I would have written when I was 12 and the whole thing was wish-fulfillment. The accelerated pregnancy is seriously straight out of a story I wrote when I was a kid, because I just couldn't stand to wait 9 months in the story.

I like struggle in what I read. I like it when the characters have to fight to get to the end, and I like it when they lose things along the way. That's what makes a story rich, what makes a character grow and flourish. Otherwise, what's the point in reading if the characters are going to get everything they want dumped in their laps with minimal effort?

And even though this might have been Meyer's vision (and of course, her book so she can write whatever she wants), I still think that fans more than have the right to criticize if they're disappointed in how things turn out. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion about the books, whether it's that they jumped the shark or are the best things ever written. That's what I love about this group. We've got both ends of the spectrum, and we're all very respectful of each other's opinions.

Uh-oh, I think I'm going to have a sappy, "I love you guys!" moment... ;)

TDF, hat is my feeling exactly so thank you for saying what you did.

We thought Bella would have to struggle and it's really annoying to me to hear otherwise. I enjoyed the books because of Edward's love for Bella and vice versa but to know she just gets everything "right" because she's "special" is really truly a copout to me. That is lame and so I'd rather not read it and get disappointed further.

My feelings about the book changed long before BD came out so I won't say the series was lame. It's just a series I began with and loved but as I read other books about the same subject, I found them to be deeper and more real life. I'm glad that we can agree to disagree and not get all offended about what others might or might not have liked, like so many other Twilight groups I've been following.

Group hugs! LOL

I agree with a lot of what's been said. :D

I'm amazed at the intensity of the arguments surrounding BD in some groups. I guess it's because the Twilight groups tend to have a large young adult membership and they can be so intense and inflexible (and intolerant of varying opinions) at that stage.

I've read the arguments under the actual books page and some of these people are ridiculous. It's really stupid to say something about someone that you don't even know on the net just because they didn't like the book you loved. It's so hard to forget that these are YA books and there are lots of YAdults that read them.

I took BD back to Borders and got the last 2 books in the Anna Strong Chronicles (The Becoming is the first one) and the first Mercy Thompson book, Moon Called.

Tricia,

I always takes about 200-250 pages to get into one of Meyer's books. She loves her exposition. After that it really picks up...hope this helps. :)

I just finished BD and I liked it. The whole pregnancy thing wasn't a real deterrant for me because I don't read interviews with authors often so I don't know what SM said about what would/wouldn't hppen in her series.. But I must say, I can buy the story about male vamps being able to procreate while the female can't because it's sort of similar to reality at a certain point woman are no longer able to get pregnant while men can go on producing sperm. My qualm is that everything wrapped up nicely without any struggle but if you think about all the struggles/pain the characters went through in the previous books than maybe it needed to be ended without conflict this time. There were equally good parts / bad parts and since I went in with no preconcieved expectation I was able to enjoy this final chapter in the series.

Also there were mny more hybrid children. They existence because not just a myth at the end.

Glad you liked it Jael.

Yeah I was shocked that I liked since you didn't. It was enjoyable not the best. There were many things that I didn't agree with( Jacob imprinting on Renesmee and no big fight scene) I can see where SM cut alot of corners in the book to get to her version of HEA. I like it because it wasn't what I expected at all. It has it good/bad parts but it didn't take me out of the story. I have read alot of the reviwes(+/-) and I agree which each one. Harry Potter ending was better and BD was tolerable. It's over and I'm glad I read it too the end besides this was not one of my better series to begin with, so I have no disappointments. I still think you should have finished it :)

I might just do that. Just not right now.

um have u read breaking dawn yet? if u have then u know the answer to that

I've read enough of it to know I don't like the direction the story went. So no, I guess I don't know the answer to that. Why don't you enlighten me?

The answer to what? I've read BD but I don't know the question

Pretty much what my question is to Danielle.

Oh, my gosh!!!!! Have you read Breaking Dawn yet? That's probly the best one out of them all!!!!!

Grace, if you take a moment and read other people's comments on here, you'll note that most of us who are posting in this thread have read the book.

--

On another note, I think Breaking Dawn was the worst of them all.

I'm not to sure if I posted on this thread yet but here are my thoughts on BD. First things first, it definately wasn't my favorite of the four books. I'm glad at how it ended though I still wonder what would have happened if she went the other way (meaning Jacob) or if overall she just died. The book also had "saw that coming" parts and scenes where I was shocked and wide eyed. Overall, I liked it, though I still think nothing beats Twilight (1st book).

Hmm... I just finished the first three books of the Twilight series and I had to get online to see what others were thinking of this series thus far. I seem to be in the minority when I say that I wished she chose Jacob, at least in the beginning. I find that Edward's and Bella's relationship resemble that of codependency rather than love. Maybe I was just angry (and yes, I do tend to get over-involved when reading) that Edward left her. I just didn't understand it. He says it was better for her but if he really knew her would he have left her in such a state. Even I could see that Bella would be destroyed. Sure Edward has had years to deal with his emotions, Bella hadn't. Like Jennifer, I saw that Jacob helped Bella get through the worse and I thought he made the ultimate sacrifice of all in letting Bella go. And this imprinting, I am not sure if it occurred or not (I think it did) but I thought that the scene might be set for perhaps Leah and Jacob to get together at least for the time being. I haven't read Breaking Dawn so I can't be sure (don't tell me if I am right)

I noticed that as I was reading, I seem to have major issues with Bella's character development. At times, she was strong and not so quick to faint but sometimes it was frustrating to read how easy she got into hysterics. I agree with whomever stated that Bella did use both Jacob and Edward in a way. But I would go further and state that I think she uses all of the men in her life and that it reverts back to her mom, Renee and how she dealt with the men in her life (Charlie & Phil?- not sure if this is his name... if it isn't, it escaped me). I see Bella being as much responsible for a lot of this conflict as Edward and Jacob. My own issues with her character aside, I am still torn. I don't understand this whole Team Edward vs. Team Jacob thing but I really wonder if it does really have to be a choice of one versus the other? Couldn't she have both? I thought I sensed that Edward and Jacob might come around to sharing in the end or maybe I am one of those who sees the glass as half-full rather than half-empty.

Anyways, this book has me curious of whether belong to either the Team Edward vs. Team Jacob say something about our own personal biases or how we perceive things?

I know I am late to the discussion but I am curious to hear what others think... I tried to go to the Twilight groups but soon realized they were made up of young adults and hmmm... well, I am far from young adult ;)

How could she possibly have both? Yes she loves Jacob but I don't think she loves him like she loves Edward. Maybe the only thing keeping her tied to Edward is he is her first love. I personally love Edward, and I hate Jacob. If he loved her he would let her make her choice and accept it. Since you haven't read book 4 yet I am not going to go into specifics but in the other 3 (at least book 3) he pushes her and pushes her... Edward lets her go see Jacob, he tells her if she wants Jacob then he can understand that and he will leave... Jacob on the other hand just won't let her make up her own mind.
As for the imprinting... you will find out in book 4 what happens and then maybe you will see everyones point.

Aisha, I agree with most of your post, although I have to say I don't expect Edward and Jacob to share Bella, LOL. The reader doesn't necessarily have to have a preference for either, but I would certainly expect the heroine to, LOL. I don't think she would appeal to anyone if she ran that way. ;) And neither man is satisfied with being "just friends." Thus, the Jacob vs. Edward dilemma. It is a major conflict in the series. The tension in the books would probably be halved without it (and not nearly so interesting).

As for Bella, I think Jacob deserves to be more than a stand-in for Edward or anybody else. He deserves a girl who sees him, not somebody else's shadow, and I didn't like that Bella used him while Ed was gone either, so I never really saw them together. I hope he finds his woman though. I haven't read Book 4 either.

Samantha actually touched on one of the reasons that I do like Jacob. Edward lets Bella test drive Jacob, so to speak, and tries to make every appearance of not being jealous, but to my mind, Jacob is a lot more straightforward with his feelings and more outwardly passionate. He doesn't hide that he hates it when she's with Edward, and whatever his faults in harrying Bella, I think it's much more honest and healthy a response than nonchalantly letting her hang around with his rival, as Edward does. I don't know any man who, knowing that his girl has feelings for another man, would meekly (or stupidly) allow her to run to that man again and again. There's something dishonest about that. But I said that before. That's old news.

Glad to see you joining the discussion, Aisha. :)

I don't think that Edward is dishonest. A part of him wants Bella to choose Jacob because she won't have to sacrifice anything to be with him. Edward still worries that Bella will be giving up her family and her soul to be with him. Deep down, he wants what's best for Bella, even if that means his giving her up.

New_User, I had to chuckle when reading your statement about Edward and Jacob not wanting to share. So maybe, I was a bit naive in thinking that it could happen but who knows... You're right that this conflict is what makes the series and that in the end she has to choose one. Though I am of the mind that Jacob pushes Bella to do things in such a way that Edward doesn't thus convincing me that Jacob would be a better fit for Bella's "woe is me" persona (he could shake her out of this daze she always seems to be in when with Edward), I do agree (albeit with great reluctance) that Jacob deserves more than Bella can give him. However, I do have to disagree with Jennifer's statement that Bella won't be giving up too much when with Jacob. I think she would be giving up a lot for the reasons stated before. Jacob would challenge Bella in ways that Edward couldn't. Bella would have to face "reality" in such a way that she couldn't with Edward. By turning into a vampire, Bella can always use the excuse of time to escape her troubles. Besides, there is no associate trauma with being turned as was the case with Alice, Emmett, Rosalie and Edward. Bella is actually choosing to be a vampire and that must stand for something. With Edward, I feel that everything is too compact and put-together. What would she be giving up with Edward? I feel like her desire to be like Edward is seen as an escape for the "pain" that Bella feels she endures in real life. I guess I don't see Bella giving up her family ties and soul because I am not sure if Bella considers Renee and Charlie to be her family, honestly. Perhaps I am reading this wrong but I have always felt in reading about Bella's characterizations of Charlie and Renee, that she is looking for an excuse to find some other family to belong to...

Hmm... you both have given me much to ponder. Thanks for responding!

You both brought up very interesting points. I never thought of Edward allowing Bella to be with Jacob for that reason. That's a good point, Jennifer, although I kind of think, who's he kidding? Just say what you really want, LOL. That's noble in theory, but not for the girl who wants to share her life with him. A girl wants to know she is not alone in a relationship, that her man is vested in the relationship and will fight for it as much as she-- well, at least a girl who isn't as obsessed as Bella, LOL.

And that's an interesting take, Aisha. In a way, she can get away from facing all her troubles by being with Edward, and it's always tempting to escape life's worries (in whatever way). I definitely agree that Jacob forces her to face things head-on, in comparison. He doesn't coddle her as much as Edward, imo.

One also must take into account, that Edward and Jacob are both a product of the time in which they were born and raised. Edward is about a hundred years old. He is very old fashioned and comes from a time period where men were the providers and protectors of their women. Jacob is more modern; he sees women more as partners and is used to independent, strong, modern women. They are both shaped by the attitudes and perceptions of the time period in which they grew up.

Jennifer, Bella is not strong or modern at all so Jacob is barking (haha) up the wrong tree anyway.

ROFL, well said, Ranata!

Bella is quite independent and modern. She is big on doing things for herself, and often protests when Edward tries to coddle her. I think Bella has her own inner strength. She's just a normal teenage girl, who's trying to do the best she can. She's lived a pretty sheltered life up until she meets Edward, so she doesn't have a lot of experience to draw from.