fiction files redux discussion

Michael wrote: "Les, I hear you. "Keep coming back." At some point after Poor Tony loses it in spectacular fashion on the subway, the book went from slog to pure page turner for me. The AA meeting circa pages 340 - 375 is riveting."

At the same time, though, I'm starting to encounter some pretty dull sections, the likes of which I don't seem to remember meeting in the beginning. The puppet film and the suicidal tennis kid would have probably made me pull hair if I had any.

Don't have too much to add. It has been the trip from the ETA to the rehab facility intertwined with Madame Psychosis radio show. I like the line about the guest who was introduced but never said anything on her radio show.

Comparing intense athletic training with addiction is interesting. I have heard of a runner's high and athletes that practice with intensity for the endorphin rush.

There not only is the sense of The Brothers Karamazov but The Royal Tenenbaums. All three of the boys are prodigies in one way or another. The comparison of Mario to Alyosha Karamazov is spot on. In fact if a movie were to be made of these 2 books, I would expect Wes Anderson to direct.

@Pavel... I hear ya. I was just telling my husband, it's taken me 3 days to read about an 8 minute cartoon. I'm just barely past the suicidal tennis kid (at least I HOPE!) I'm not sure how much reading I'll get done with the Holidays looming.

@ Alice--I have more than once felt The Royal Tenenbaums vibe.

It has been a while since I read TBK, but it seems the Alyosha comparison only goes so far. I remember Alyosha as being a beautiful, but MUCH less damaged soul. Mario seems like an object of pity who is also a dear soul whereas Alyosha always struck me as a beautiful soul who was also a very admirable human being.

Hi everyone! Well, I'm still reading it pretty slowly. I had to stop carrying it on the subway because I actually pinched a nerve in my shoulder or something, so I'm only reading it when home, which doesn't allow me to dedicate all that much time to it.

As far as favorite quotes and passages go, I'm partial to the ones that seem to be mocking either the author or me, like footnote 61, describing some new film movement as "characterized by a stubborn and possibly intentionally irritating refusal of different narrative lines to merge into any kind of meaningful confluence" or like Joelle remembering when she'd suggested as a title for the Entertainment 'The Face of the Deep' which JOI said "would be too pretentious and then used that skull-fragment out of the Hamlet graveyard scene instead, which talk about pretentious..."

Someone asked if anyone else had considered the possibility of Mario as maybe some sort of split personality of Hal's, and I want to say yes, I've considered it, but it doesn't seem to work.

Les wrote: "Alyosha comparison only goes so far. I remember Alyosha as being a beautiful..."

If not Alyosha, then maybe Prince Myshkin? Like Myshkin, Mario is innocent, naïve, impractical, compassionate, and immensely kind, which leads most to consider him an "idiot."
mm

I bailed on The Idiot after about 250 pages (one of those "it's me, not you" stages), but based on what I read I would agree with that assessment completely.

I also agree with Patty about Mario as a split personality of Hal's. That would just be too messy and hard to explain in so many spots.

Michael wrote: "If not Alyosha, then maybe Prince Myshkin? Like Myshkin, Mario is innocent, naïve, impractical, comp..."

Yeah, man! I've got a marginal note back at page 169 when James Incandenza's dad describes himself being brought home drunk:

how the drunk and the maimed both are dragged forward out of the arena like a boneless Christ, one man under each arm, feet dragging, eyes on the aether.

Dostoevsky's "Holbein Christ" from The Idiot?

(And Patty: hope the shoulder heals soon.)
(Alice: for some weird reason, I want to see this filmed as a Hong Kong action film, subtitles and all. (Beautifully shot by Wong Kar Wai and including those flying wu xia fighters.))

@Patty having Mario as another side of Hal's personality is a good possibility. Remember, at the the beginning of IJ the child Hal had eaten a fungus in the basement of the family home. Hal was wearing a little red sleeper pajama suit. Mario Brothers game anyone? That Mario is enfeebled can be showing that the idealistic and kind side of Hal is slowly attenuating.

@Pavel you are right about Alyosha Karamazov. He is a fully realized character. Mario I may be only a facet of Hal I's character.

Reading this has brought home that every sentence matters in the opus of Infinite Jest.

@Hugh with IJ as movie the result would be interesting come failure or success. That so many types of directors could come to mind is a testamemt to the scope and effect of this novel. The daily tennis drills could be an amazing piece of choreography.


Many had said One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest would be impossible to film.

Oops it's Les no Pavel sorry! I also have to acknowledge Sandra of Mario being an aspect of Hal. That was many posts back.

File under "Just Because", the dictinary.com word of the day:
whinge \hwinj\, verb:

To complain; whine.

Sorry Tom. Canadian idiom. Whinge. Complain. Petition for redress. Assemble. March in those five-abreast demonstrating lines. Shake upraised fists in unison.
-- David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

Uh, not to correct DFW or a dictionary, but "whinging" is very much a British, as in England, idiom. DFW's version is more martial than I am a familiar with, so maybe there is a difference in Canada that separates it. I always thought "whinging" was Britspeak for "venting", i.e. to complain without acting on a problem. Canadian whinging seems more organized. It is a great word, in any case.

I don't know anymore than anyone else how IJ would be be filmed, and worry it would it turn into one of those travesties best left unseen. At the same time, there are many scenes--the game of Eschaton for instance--that I can see being filmed. Some of the most compelling moments when DFW puts a character or a scene into motion, like the ride that Don Gately takes to Cambridge to get an organic meal for Joelle van Dyne. And having built the characters up, and set scenes--a lot of Infinite Jest seems to be about waiting for something to happen, or an unnerving dissection of a moment as it happens--it feels like a relief. It would be hard to duplicate the characters' thoughts, which humanize some of the more cartoony characters, on film, but there could be some really interesting scenes made from IJ.

Jim wrote: "Michael wrote: "Speaking of which, think of the arc on those great canisters of waste being shot over the border into the great concavity..."

Kind of like the arcs of the Eschaton lobs."

Finished the section on Orin's punting career - just a classic example of the transcendental arc theme in this book. Of course, this coming just prior to Poor Tony's bottoming out.

But to Orin's punts, " punting's pull for him, that a lot of it seemed emotional and/or even, if there was such a thing anymore, spiritual: a denial of silence: here were upwards of 30,000 voices, souls, voicing approval as One Soul. He invoked the raw numbers. The frenzy. He was thinking out loud here. Audience exhortations and approvals so total they ceased to be numerically distinct and melded into a sort of single coital moan, one big vowel, the sound of the womb, the roar gathering, tidal, amniotic, the voice of what might as well be God."

Now there is a parabola for ya.
mm

Finished the chapter with Joelle Van Dyne. The chapter was frenetic. You the reader get the literary sense of overstimulation.

Robert wrote: "I don't know anymore than anyone else how IJ would be be filmed, and worry it would it turn into one of those travesties best left unseen. At the same time, there are many scenes--the game of Esc..."

It's true that when he's describing action, it's very cinematic. But to capture all those words and ideas - unlikely it would work very well.

In message #12, I posted a link to a music video that re-creates the Eschaton game.

I was recounting the video telephony section to my wife and telling her how hilarious I thought it was. She burst my bubble and said "Yeah, that was on The Jetsons." Of course, there is so much more to the section given the Truth of it and the psychoses that is so accurate, but it brought me down just a tad. Still, taking a 30 second clip from a cartoon (if that was the case) and spinning it into that wonderful section still takes brilliance.

From the youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0idWiH...

Jim, thanks for the Decemberists video. I missed that initially. I think that was executed wonderfully and gives me a better idea of what Eschaton could look like.

Les wrote: "I was recounting the video telephony section to my wife and telling her hilarious I thought it was. She burst my bubble and said "Yeah, that was on The Jetsons." Of course, there is so much more to..."

I wonder if you could make money selling masks, etc. to Skype users?

Ugh. I haven't picked up IJ in over two weeks and I'm finding myself wanting to start something else. I'm a bad, bad group read participant!

So this happened... I was wrapping up a section and got pulled away to take care of something outside of IJ (I know, weird, huh?) When I came back, I happened to reopen the book to a spot three hundred pages later where I had randomly slipped my bookmark during the earlier read. I went 10 pages before realizing where I was in the book which I'm just saying speaks to the episodic nature of the book....

And so Kerry to your point, if you're feeling your interest flagging, I might suggest leaping AHEAD to say, Page 242 and checking out the funny/sad phone conversation between Hal and Orin (in which Hal describes his stint in grief counseling to a brother who is looking for advice on how to show emotion about his father's death.)

Or maybe even start in on the long passage on 343 which presents a bunch of stories on the characters in Ennet House.

I am now in the eschaton section. I have to tell you guys, I really pretty much loathe the eschaton section. Not in the "I think this should have been edited out" sort of way, but in the "this makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable and ashamed of humanity" sort of way. It seems to be a section that other people really enjoy. Maybe you guys wouldn't mind talking about what you like about it, on this, the final day we have on earth (It's the end-of-the-mayan-calendar-apocolpyse-day, which I think DFW would have appreciated.)

Here are the wikipedia definitions of eschatology, just to kick off the party. But what is it about war games that is so appealing to people? I won't try to deny that there is an appeal. We do love the end of the world, don't we?

Eschatology i/ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ (from the Greek ἔσχατος/ἐσχάτη/ἔσχατον, eschatos/eschatē/eschaton meaning "last" and -logy meaning "the study of", first used in English around 1550)[1] is a part of theology, physics, philosophy, and futurology concerned with what are believed to be the final events of history, the ultimate destiny of humanity — commonly referred to as the "end of the world" or "end time".[2]

The Oxford English Dictionary defines eschatology as "The department of theological science concerned with ‘the four last things: death, judgement, heaven, and hell’

also, another quotable that I really like, from the preceding chapter, in which Steeply and Maranthe discuss national ethics:

"now is what has happpened when a people choose nothing over themselves to love, each one."

@Patty: One thing that struck me on my second reading of IJ was just how different I experienced the Eschaton scene. The first time I read it I remember it being very funny. As I felt it's approach the second time around I was geared up for hilarity and then found it much sadder.

I was wondering if this was because I'd changed in the three years between readings or if perhaps the comedy or absurdity of it is only hilarious if you don't know what's coming. And once you know what's coming you are able to see the scene more completely.

Either way the Eschaton scene is one of the most memorable scenes for me.

Dan wrote: "...or if perhaps the comedy or absurdity of it is only hilarious if you don't know what's coming. And once you know what's coming you are able to see the scene more completely...."

I have to say that, although this isn't my first reading, I don't actually remember what's coming at all. So, not for me, at any rate. I wonder if you can remember, when you still found it funny, was it the kind of funny that's like the surprise of recognition, or was it another kind of comedy?

For me it's all so abstract and theoretical that it, frankly, seems much too much like real war. Too much like the jargony numbness that goes with contemporary military "exercises" to seem like much fun.

One criticism I might make of IJ on the whole is that it's incredibly easy to lose oneself in all of the intricacies and sleuthing out connections and in empathy for the characters, and lose sight of what seem to be really incredible and important insights into life and the world outside of the novel. It becomes such a self-enclosed universe that we sometimes forget that it's a commentary on us. I feel like the eschaton scene is DFW maybe getting really blatant and obvious and direct with us.

Patty wrote: "One criticism I might make of IJ on the whole is that it's incredibly easy to lose oneself in all of the intricacies and sleuthing out connections and in empathy for the characters, and lose sight of what seem to be really incredible and important insights into life and the world outside of the novel. It becomes such a self-enclosed universe that we sometimes forget that it's a commentary on us. I feel like the eschaton scene is DFW maybe getting really blatant and obvious and direct with us."


I have been considering some of the warnings of IJ all week. As the details unfold about the way that the Sandy Hook tragedy is related to entertainment, isolation, mental instability, family dynamics... I can't help but wonder if DFW would have officially reacted to it in any way.

Elizabeth wrote: I can't help but wonder if DFW would have officially reacted to it in any way.


I think we can sort of take his writing as his official reaction, not to that specific incident, but to the set of societal norms and situations that made it possible.

One criticism I might make of IJ on the whole is that it's incredibly easy to lose oneself in all of the intricacies and sleuthing out connections and in empathy for the characters, and lose sight of what seem to be really incredible and important insights into life and the world outside of the novel.

Patty: I think you've (again) touched on both a deep insight about the author's intent and a challenge in his style, which can be off-putting.

Thinking back to the phone conversation between Hal and Orin... Orin calls to find out how to "emotionally respond" to the reporter who has been grilling him about his father's death. Hal, in his own flippant way, describes their father's bizarre death -- and his discovery of the body -- THROUGH THE LENS OF his grief counseling. These characters are, at times, almost without affect.

This idea of lenses and being at a distance from authentic emotion is at the heart of what DFW is getting at. And yet -- it's an aspect of his writing that is tough to get through, because you, in fact, have to SIT THROUGH the baroque rules of this "game of the end times".

For me, it's Wallace saying: "See how kids play this game? this is how we talk about -- and deal with -- the horror of nuclear war. This is about as serious as we ever get about the very real possibility of f***ing ourselves and the planet over. We're teenagers at this stuff."

Elizabeth: I have no idea how the author would have reacted in a personal (or professional) way to that particular tragedy. But I think there is enough evidence in this novel, that one of his blessings/curses was that he could feel the raw human emotion in these situations and that he understood (perhaps better than most) the layers of rationalization and logic we try to layer on things that just ache in the human soul. But we put on our "fun lenses".

If anyone would have gotten the sickness -- and the grotesque, soulless commercial agenda -- of the NRA's so-called "press conference", I think it is David Foster Wallace.

And to return to Patty's initial comment: while it may not be cool to call out the extreme violence in video games as one of the MANY problematic elements tied up in these human tragedies, it is precisely our capacity to turn Death into a Game.

After all, when you think about the number of nuclear warheads in the world, and their capacity to, quite literally, destroy human life on this planet (many times over) what are you gonna do? (And when you think about a teenager who, in the process of maturing, starts really THINKING about what this might all mean and the honest-to-Christ possibility of human beings blowing this planet up, what's he/she gonna do?)

Cry? Get high? Or have some fun with it?

Hugh, I think your last comment (and all of your lead up to it) hits it exactly right as to why the Eschaton section worked for me. Initially, I also really thought the Pemulis endnotes and his particular voice ("Pemuis here") made the section seem funnier than it actually was. I also went to the Calamity Song video for the first time after only a few pages. I thought the video was brilliantly executed at that point and am further impressed upon finishing the eschaton section. I completely agree that the reality that the game represents is terribly hideous and it is also what we have as a constant possibility in our real world. That should make us sick.

I am not sure if I just started noticing it, but the idea of "eliminating one's map" becomes blatant after this point. They are trying to eliminate one another in their game. The next section is the Boston AA and that exact phrase or something very similar is brought up many times. I then started noticing it everywhere after that. Introducing that idea in the eschaton section so blatantly seems to make carrying that theme forward easier.

Les: I had not made the connection to "eliminating one's map." Good catch.

Another nominee for all time classic snippet, from the AA meeting: "Me friends, this tard'o'mine practically had a poolse." ;)

Hugh wrote: "Les: I had not made the connection to "eliminating one's map." Good catch."

Dont forget ... Rearranging ones map and.its tie in with the ggreat convexity/concavity! I dont think i got it till the Fackleman debacle near the end.

There are so many layers to this book. When I try to explain what this book is about, I'm at a loss. "Well it's about this tennis school, but that's like a side story...it's basically about this movie and this terrorist plot...but it's also about AA and how we're all addicted and the lengths we'll go to experience pleasure...but, no it's mostly about communication or the lack thereof, kind of...I don't know, it's hard to explain..."

Sandra: I completely agree; I've had the same challenge trying to describe it. Mash-ups don't help (Encyclopedic William T. Vollman spliced with the humor of Kurt Vonnegut? Nope.)... but which, to my mind, speaks to the quality of the writing, uniqueness of voice and (my guess) future longevity of this book.

[And to those who celebrate: Merry Christmas (in the most non-commercial, post-ironic, pre-Modernist, back-to-the-manger, awe-and-wonder-Adeste-Fideles-Silent/Holy Night kind of way.)]

Hey - I got The Broom of the System for Xmas! Might be taking a detour from the IJ reread. :)

Michael wrote: "Another nominee for all time classic snippet, from the AA meeting: "Me friends, this tard'o'mine practically had a poolse." ;)"

And love his reference to his "Har Par" in the next line: "Ay sted doan own m'knays an tanked me Har Par, which ay choose t'call me Har Par Good..."

[Hope we don't lose you to the Broom... Or if we do, you'll share a few insights from that first novel.]

Les wrote: "Hugh, I think your last comment (and all of your lead up to it) hits it exactly right as to why the Eschaton section worked for me. Initially, I also really thought the Pemulis endnotes and his par..."

Les, I really liked what you had to say about the whole Eschaton thing--it really does speak to our current way of life and the possible horrors of the real-life version of this game. I don't know if you have gotten to the "Eschaton Debacle" as it's known by in the book, but Hal's reaction to it is a huge signpost along the way to seeing just exactly why we should all try to avoid Hal's fate and line of thinking as well as the game-playing that make real-life versions of Eschaton possible.

Can we talk about Freedom for a moment? (Well, it’s a long post, so maybe a coupla minutes....)

Although many may not have finished the book, at this point in the proceedings, I think its fair to talk about a theme that gets brought up in different contexts and I’m not sure DFW comes down on with any clear point of view but is himself wrestling with.

The most straight-ahead-let’s-get-down-to-brass-tacks discussions are obviously between Steeply and Marathe. (In fact, at times it seems their only real purpose is this political/philosophical Statement of Themes.)

On pages 318-319: Marathe challenges Steeply’s praise of America’s “freedom of choice” by bringing up the Entertainment:

‘We will only make it available. Entertainment. There will be then some choosing, to partake or choose not to.’ Smoothing slightly at his lap’s blanket. ‘How will U.S.A.’s choose? Who has taught them to choose with care? How will your Office and Agencies protect them, your people? By laws? By killing Québecois?...As you were killing Columbians and Bolivians to protect U.S.A. citizens who desire their narcotics?”

A hundred pages later, he challenges Steeply again who says that one of the necessary downsides of “freedom of choice” is that some “puerile” people will want to just sit down and “eat all the candy”, unable to delay gratification. Page 430:

‘But of these types of your persons – the different types, the mature who see down the road, the puerile type that eats the candy and soup in the moment only…. Which do you think describes the U.S.A. of O.N.A.N. and the Great Convexity, this U.S.A. you feel pain that others might wish to harm?....How could it be that A.F.R. malice could hurt all of the U.S.A. culture by making available something as momentary and free as the choice to view only this one Entertainment? You know there can be no forcing to watch a thing. If we disseminate the samizdat, the choice will be free, no? Free from force, no? Yes? Freely chosen?’

Then, along another two other axes of the story (remind me to post that Venn diagram of storylines), we have a fairly strong, sarcastic critique of the Moms (who as far as I can tell, practically never speaks to Hal in the first half of the book) and her “open-mindedness”, at least twice in the Orin section in which he changes sports (as in page 288):

Avril made it clear that the very last thing she wanted was to have any of her children feel they had to justify or explain to her any sort of abruptly or even bizarrely sudden major decision the might happen to make, and it’s not clear that The Mad Stork had even nailed down the fact that Orin was still in metro Boston at B.U. in the first place.

In contrast, DFW seems to have a particular soft spot for the wisdom of the Crocodiles (p. 357):

Gately’s sponsor Francis (‘Ferocious Francis’) G., the Crocodile that Gately finally got up the juice to ask to be his sponsor, compares the totally optional basic suggestions in Boston AA to, say for instance if you’re going to jump out of an airplane, they ‘suggest’ you wear a parachute. But of course you do what you want. Then he starts laughing until he’s coughing so bad he has to sit down.

Bringing it back to page 319 and Marathe:

’This appetite to choose death by pleasure if it is available to choose – this appetite of your people unable to choose appetites, this is the death.’

Me? I detect an undercurrent of rage in DFW about the lack of preparing children for this “death”, a real hankering for teaching(?)/showing by example(?) the way to make better, smarter choices.

Is this just projection? What do YOU think he’s getting at?

Yeah, I have to think about this a bit... I don't think DFW is so much pointing his finger and saying "You're not teaching the children" so much as sighing and admitting there is a real fundamental brokenness of the human psyche. A real need to escape, to be somehow comforted, an emptiness that we strive to fill. I mean, that's kind of the way AA works. It's not because they explicitly say "Here, do this." but rather they ask "Have YOU had enough?" Only you know when you've reached that point. And some people never reach that point. They'll sit and consume that entertainment until they die.

Yes, Hugh, I'll think about this because I feel you're right. This is the fundamental story. Our freedom to choose v our choices.

Hi Hugh,I finished the book & just wanted to thank you guys here for holding an interesting discussion. I feel like an interloper jumping on the IJ gravy train here!
Well,somebody here mentioned Mario being a stand in for Alyosha & that's true!
On page 969, Wallace refers to The Brothers K. Hope that's not a spoiler!

Mala: would love to hear your insights on any of the points raised -- and those you know are headed our way. Thanks for the heads up on the Brothers K.

(On the topic of Mario, I'll just put a flare in the road on page 451 about Charles Tavis' musings about Mario (related to his description of Mario as "it"))

And Sandra: I think you make an interesting distinction in DFW's intentions here.

Hugh wrote: "Mala: would love to hear your insights on any of the points raised -- and those you know are headed our way. Thanks for the heads up on the Brothers K.

(On the topic of Mario, I'll just put a flar..."

There is so much to ponder on in IJ! One thing that captured my attention is how almost all the characters are coming from highly dysfunctional families- it's not just the poor,single-parent family or road side addicts,but even  the kids in the upscale ETA,coming from well-heeled families,who face the same kind of absentee parents.
I remember reading how their parents always seemed to be in a hurry to dump them at the school gate & roar away in their expensive cars or how after the Eschaton fiasco,the parents come to meet CT & are so beguiled by his talk,they even forget to meet their injured kids.
That & the lack of any sort of spiritual life make IJ universe a very bleak one.
Family & religion,the two main; value-based,stabilizing,nurturing part of our life are absent here.
True, as Sandra pointed out above,Wallace wasn't running down institutions here,still, if that comes out in the textual reading,it only shows how much readers are getting out of it!
Here is a Goodreads review that talks in detail abt the issue of freedom to choose amidst the plethora of choices:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...