Review Group discussion

Jay, I'm so glad to know that I'm not the only one who has dogs that eat the covers and spines off books...

Interesting that we're having this discussion - I just got a sample back from an editor. He had asked me to submit samples from two previously-published (and edited) books, which I did. He returned them...re-edited. What I learned was, two editors can disagree COMPLETELY on what needs to be changed and what doesn't.

He also edited my dialogue! Not to correct egregious errors, which is fine, but to correct grammar, partial sentences, etc., that were intended to give character to the speaker. When I read it out loud, it now sounds stiff and unnatural.

I'm thinking I won't be going with this guy for editing...

After selling no books last month, one person from the UK purchased my book last night.

As a show of my gratitude to the person in the UK who bought my book, in the next revision, all instances of "anymore" will be changed to "any more."

Nevermore (-croak-).

Jay wrote: " I shall continue my campaign to teach Americans how to spell..."

And our editors will have us change it right back. For some odd reason, there are particular words I naturally spell the English way (colour comes to mind). My spell checker hates it and my editor repeatedly asks me what country I'm writing for.

I read a lot of books. I guess I've picked up the odd spelling habits from [shock, gasp!] un-American sources.

I suppose I'd file this under 'classy problems'... 'Classy grammar problems?' Ooo-- I feel a blog coming on...
t./

I got even more confused when I was living in Canada. It seemed to be a mixture of American and English English.

This is making me want to go through my old Harry Potter books to see if they were edited to use US or UK English.

Samuel wrote: "This is making me want to go through my old Harry Potter books to see if they were edited to use US or UK English."

I know that there are two versions of the first book's title: "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone".

Has anyone else noticed that who's and whose seem to be most popular wrong choices this month? I keep catching myself out with its and it's...

I just taught a CPR class where the official video mixed up nauseous and nauseated (one of my pet peeves).

"No, dear, you're not nauseous. You look quite pretty to me. However, the fact that you just vomited on my shoes indicates that you might be nauseated."

K.A. wrote: "I just taught a CPR class where the official video mixed up nauseous and nauseated (one of my pet peeves).

"No, dear, you're not nauseous. You look quite pretty to me. However, the fact that you ..."

LOL

I don't mind there's instead of there're if it's used in dialog by a character who would actually speak that way. But it amazes me how often I see it used in narrative.

New Gump!

The image on my bank's app changes daily depending on what they are marketing. Today, it said that I can, "Go farther." That's great if they mean I can vacation in the UK instead of going camping because the UK is farther from me than the campgrounds. However, if they mean they can help me with my financial goals, they should have said, "Go further."

I found myself using its instead of it's and I have just re-issued my book Missing in Egypt to correct them. It's much easier to pick up errors in other people's work than your own even though you've read it a hundred times. I think texting has done dreadful things to our spelling and grammar!

K.A. wrote: "I just taught a CPR class where the official video mixed up nauseous and nauseated (one of my pet peeves).

"No, dear, you're not nauseous. You look quite pretty to me. However, the fact that you ..."

I just fixed this in the book I'm revising right now. I had to double check the meanings to make sure I used the right one. :-)

K.A. wrote: "Interesting that we're having this discussion - I just got a sample back from an editor. He had asked me to submit samples from two previously-published (and edited) books, which I did. He returned..."

Sounds like a good idea. If I'm providing comments for someone, I will highlight an error in dialog if it seems unintentional, but I won't suggest changes, just a second look. Anything that falls outside the quotes, however, is fair game.

Editors should take always take character and plot points into account when looking at dialog.

After all, grammar goes by the wayside when people get upset. And one way to define characters is by how they use language, either intentionally, by habit or by regional custom.

Also a factor are idiomatic expressions that, by definition, have a life of their own.

Besides, great writers don't follow grammar, they create a grammar that suits their artistic goals.

Capital-G grammar is what we teach to children so they can become sensitized to the issues surrounding grammar. But there's no absolute, abstract grammar. Are we going to say that someone from N. Carolina who says, "You might could do that," is *wrong*?

Outside of high school and college essays, grammar is a process, not a rule.

I love the way that idiomatic and colloquial speech can say so much about a character without having to resort to long descriptions (which only bore readers). It helps a character become a person a reader can relate to - positive or negative connection, without it the work is flat and uninteresting. Having said that, it's sometimes overdone. As a reader I prefer a flavour of it rather than having it rammed down my throat every time that character opens their mouth. It also has to be consistent.

Ala Harriet Beecher Stowe. Makes it so difficult to read because very word is dialect.

At least if it's all in dialect the author won't be pulled up over spelling and grammar. Nor would anyone who might have found such errors have actually read it lol!

Theresa wrote: "Jay wrote: " I shall continue my campaign to teach Americans how to spell..."

And our editors will have us change it right back. For some odd reason, there are particular words I naturally spell t..."

Do you know how long it took me to spell grey as gray? (and yes, I'm American).

I drove my teachers insane with things like that.

I'm American too, and I was taught to spell it 'grey'. Also, 'judgement' (which WORD corrects to 'judgment' all the time). I have to use words like 'archaeology' and 'palaeontology' at work all the time (and SEE! I've just been corrected and told to remove the second 'a' from 'palaeotonology'. No, no, no!)

I have several grammar pet peeves, and I've been doing so much revising and editing lately that I see errors everywhere. Writing ruined me for reading. ;)

My number one pet peeve, however, is the gratuitous comma splice (careful, intentional commas splices are okay occasionally)

example of a comma splice: I went to the store, I saw my boss.
WHY????? This is wrong, and not dramatic enough to merit a breaking of the rules.
Try: "I went to the store. I saw my boss."
or "I went to the store, where I saw my boss."
or "I went to the store and saw my boss."
or "I ran into my boss at the store."
or (in a scholarly piece) "I went to the store; I saw my boss."
or a bzillion other ways to say it without comma splicing.

I came, I saw, I conquered.
THAT is a good use of a comma splice: short sentences, alike in structure, used for impact.

However, The Hunger Games had a million of them and I didn't care. Not everyone's Suzanne Collins, however.

Okay, done ranting. :)

Jay wrote: "One more example of there being two languages, then - American and English. I shall continue to write in English."

I edit in American, but write in English. How to confuse a bear of little brain.

Jay wrote: "I do a lot of checking online, but never far from my side is a 30 year old dictionary that takes a forklift to get it onto my lap (excellent exercise for a sedentary writer!). The in depth etymolog..."

You only have to have a library card to have online access to the OED, Jay.

Gloria wrote: "Ah, I remember Churchill's reference to ending a sentence with a preposition. Sometimes grace wins over awkwardness."

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/...
to blow the misconception… if he did say it he was suggesting that it was a silly rule. In all probability he did not say it.

Gill wrote: "Jay wrote: "I do a lot of checking online, but never far from my side is a 30 year old dictionary that takes a forklift to get it onto my lap (excellent exercise for a sedentary writer!). The in de..."

But I do so much online I appreciate the feel and smell of an old and trusted friend even more.

My pet peeve is exclamation marks. I find it incredibly irritating when every other sentence, or dialogue line ends in! One every four or five pages I can cope with. Several on a single page makes me twitch.

Apologies. Mea culpa.

And our editors will have us change it right back. For some odd reason, there are particular words I naturally spell the English way (colour comes to mind). My spell checker hates it and my editor repeatedly asks me what country I'm writing for.

This is probably because we're so globally connected these days and we're constantly being exposed to people all over. I also have the gray/grey issue, and never know which one I want to use.

The series I'm currently writing is narrated by a teenager so outside of the dialogue it's a mix for me. I make it slightly more formal, but still allow for him to express colloquialisms or use some slang, and I don't worry too much if it fits into the grammar rules as long as it sounds like something someone would say.
I notice quite a few more things now than I did when I started writing, though.

I've considered what it would be like to look back at my first book in ten years and see how I would write the same thing at that point. Sometimes you see artists do something like this: they'll find a picture they drew years before and draw the same thing again to see how much they've improved/changed. Has anyone else ever wanted to try this with their writing?

Great topioc.

My grump is 'bring' and 'take'.

I hear and read so many people using: "Bring it to the shop for repair." Or "Bring your books to school."

I was taught "Bring your books home." "Take your books to school."

I hate the misuse of imply/infer.

Eisah wrote: "And our editors will have us change it right back. For some odd reason, there are particular words I naturally spell the English way (colour comes to mind). My spell checker hates it and my editor ..."

I'm on the fourth edition of my first book. Of course, I do some rewriting. I'm a better writer than I was six years ago, and I want my books to reflect that. I have to accept that some of my books will never be as good as if I were writing them now. But that's not a bad thing, because they are motivators.

I think Jay will soon have to add a hatred of no-one in place of no one. :-) Gill

It's right up there with 'alright' and 'anymore', Gill ;)

:-) My pet hate is 'If I was' instead of the correct 'If I were', and Mark's is the use of less instead of fewer.

And mixing up imply/infer or lend/borrow.

The Welsh tend to do the latter plus teach and learn, simply because the same verb means both in Welsh.

Something I've noticed a lot lately, not sure why, is people using "Here, here!" when they mean "Hear, hear!" I'm always tempted to reply, "Where? Where?"

Son 1 just corrected two spellings in a story I sent him. He is a dyslexic who has over 100 published books and does his spool-chocking rigorously, so I looked them up.
Concensus wrong, consensus right, 1 up to son 1.
Miaouwing at a glance he was correct but then I checked the OED and found
Pronunciation: Brit. /mɪˈaʊ/ , U.S. /miˈaʊ/
Forms: 16 meaw, 16– miau, 18 me-yow, 18 miauw, 18 miaw, 18– meaow, 18–meeow, 18– meow, 18– miaouw, 18– miaow, 18– mieaou, 18– miow, 18– mi-owe, 19– meou; also Sc. 18 miauve, 18– myawve, 19– meave, 19– myaue, 19– myauve, 19– myaw.
I couldn't resist sending it to him with the comment
HAha Gill
I love it with iaou and my only regret was that it excluded e, but I now know I can have that too if I sacrifice the w. ;-)

Good grief! I never knew...

Weird Al Yankovic is a grammar grump!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

Awesome!

Some readers I was able to twist their arms to read my works tend to suffer conniptions over dialogue because my characters don't speak "standard english". If everyone spoke perfect Oxford it'd be stuffy. I tend to get low ratings due to that. Ugh -_-

I hate unnecessary exclamation marks (grin).

There are whole Buzzfeed and other posts (not post's) showing incorrect apostrophe use. It's (not its) really not that hard. I remember it being drilled into my head in elementary school. Seemed like everyone got it then. Why not now?

It makes me wonder what students are taught in English class these days. I tend to revert back to what I learned in school a half century ago because it still seems up-to-date. Still, I never know quite how to critique some punctuation when the author is British or Canadian or.... Rules differ. The main thing is whether the author communicates. Poor punctuation adds confusion, and we writers particularly need to sharpen our skills.

Your and you're seem to be the hot issue lately. I seen 'your' misused all over the web recently - in news stories!

Fewer and less. Their misuse makes me cringe.

Gloria wrote: "Fewer and less. Their misuse makes me cringe."

I once went to a grocery store that had a checkout lane with a sign that read, "Twelve items or fewer." I almost cried with joy.