The Sword and Laser discussion

Todd wrote: "And hey, my thread got mentioned on the podcast! Yay! "

"Cool. Good job!" I said.

I never notice the "said" words in text, unless they author chooses to use a lot of synonyms. I'm one of those people that frequently gets lost in long dialog where the author doesn't attribute at least every couple of lines.

Of authors that avoid "said", my favorite has to be Patrick O'Brian with the Aubrey-Maturin books. Every character "cries" every line of dialog, which just makes me feel like everyone is just too enthusiastic about being on a boat.

Rick wrote: "So, audiobook people, what do other authors do? Do readers skip reading all of the "he said"s? Because this is mostly an audio book thing from the replies here and I imagine most writers write in a style meant to be read, not listened to... and we're pretty good and letting our eye slide over the 'he said, she said' stuff in print. "

I've only just started listening to audio books, but I haven't noticed the word 'said' (or any alternative tags) as much in other books I've listened to, so it seems to be a style preference of Scalzi. It's hard to pinpoint an absence of noticing to tell you how other authors avoid this. I found 'said' most noticeable in Old Man's War when two characters are alone together, because there really isn't the need to use 'said' so much since if 'John said' something it's quite obvious that the only other person in the room will be the one who responds. Other books I've listened to seem to avoid this. Just listening to Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, and I haven't noticed the word 'said' once yet, though I'm sure it must have been used several times. I very much doubt readers of audio books would intentionally skip words.

But it's not a major worry, and didn't stop me from thoroughly enjoying the story.

Rick said: "So, audiobook people, what do other authors do? "

I've been reading Caliban's War recently, and when there are just two people talking, it goes like this:

"Dialogue dialogue," he said.
She said, "But dialogue dialogue?"
"Dialogue."
"Dialogue. Dialogue dialogue."
He actioned. "Dialogue."
"Dialogue!"

This is the style I'm most familiar with, when the dialogue is short and snappy. Longer speeches get a similar treatment. When there are three people, then there's more attribution, as it's necessary most of the time.

But that's on the page; I don't think audiobook performers alter the text at all, or it's rare if they do. "Said" disappears on the page, because your brain recognizes the shape of the word and de-emphasizes it, while allowing you to occasionally deliberately look for it when there's some ambiguity as to who is talking.

I made this same point last year. Really bugged me in the audiobook and almost stopped me from reading any of this other books.

"So you're a friend..." Handson said
"I am" Duvall said ...
"Great" Hanson said ...
"I would hope so" Duval said
"I'm going to get myself..." Hanson said ...
"I'm fine" Dahl said
"I could go for another" Duvall said, waggling...
"One of the same" Hanson asked
"Sure" Duvall said
"Great" Hanson said ...
"You got it" Dahl said...
"He seems nice" Duvall said
"He is" Dahl said
"Not hugely full of personality" Duvall said
"He has other qualities" Dahl said
"Like paying for drinks" Duvall said
"Well, yes..." Dahl said
"You mind..." Duvall said
"Seeing as..." Dahl said

Those of you who come down hard on the word "said" probably should read or listen to "Walk the plank" the second episode of "The Human Division", the latest addition to "Old Man's War" where the word and its synonyms are absolutely missing. See how you like that for a change.

Martin wrote: "


"So you're a friend..." Handson said
"I am" Duvall said ...
"Great" Hanson said ...
"I would hope so" Duval said
"I'm going to get myself..." Hanson said ...
"I'm fine" Dahl said
"I could go for another" Duvall said, waggling...
"One of the same" Hanson asked
"Sure" Duvall said
"Great" Hanson said ...
"You got it" Dahl said...
"He seems nice" Duvall said
"He is" Dahl said
"Not hugely full of personality" Duvall said
"He has other qualities" Dahl said
"Like paying for drinks" Duvall said
"Well, yes..." Dahl said
"You mind..." Duvall said
"Seeing as..." Dahl said"

Well said.

I only noticed this when listening to any Scalzi book on Audible. The first I listened to was Fuzzy Nation and it jumped out at me and was distracting. Then again, when listening to Redshirts it was the same. Now I am experiencing it a third time listening to Old Man's War. "Although when I read the dead tree book years ago, it did not jump out at me" said me.

"And that's the rub, Will," I said. "On the page, it's easy to ignore. You konw taht tcirk wrhee you can smacrlbe the mdilde of each word and still be able to read it? I believe that the word 'said' can fade from your notice through a similar trick of the brain recognizing the shape of the word. But your brain's auditory comprehension is quite different--maybe even the opposite.

"I think repetition is more noticeable in audio form than on the printed page, and that's why it jumps out in audio books, but not in print."

Gets more distracting when you get into audiobook formats. Then again, that could also be due to the fact that I always saw audiobooks as the prime time to do books more as full cast audiodramas, like what was done with the 10th anniversary edition of American Gods, which would cut out a lot of the need for that many instances of "said."

Laurențiu wrote: "Those of you who come down hard on the word "said" probably should read or listen to "Walk the plank" the second episode of "The Human Division", the latest addition to "Old Man's War" where the wo..."

I can't even make it through the first installment of The Human Division. That one is ridiculously heavy with saids.

I think if you look at the bit of dialogue that Martin posted from Redshirts, you can see what the problem is. Scalzi's prose is not only dialogue heavy, but that dialogue is in very short bursts. Therefore, the word "said" is popping up every 10 words or so. If his characters would say more or do something between statements, the saids would be less noticeable.

Sandi wrote: I can't even make it through the first installment of The Human Division. That one is ridiculously heavy with saids.

But the second has absolutely none, and is narrated in more of a scripted fashion with [Name of character]:[dialog line], i don't want to give anything more up as it sort of ties into the ending of the episode.

I've only ever listened to one audiobook, Redshirts. While enjoyable the use of "said" detracted from the experience.

It's easily solvable but is one of the many reasons I still prefer the printed word.

Matthew wrote: "I've only ever listened to one audiobook, Redshirts. While enjoyable the use of "said" detracted from the experience.

It's easily solvable but is one of the many reasons I still prefer the printed..."

Actually, I have only encountered the said problem in Scalzi and in Mike Resnick. I've listened to over 200 audiobooks, so that means that 98% don't have a said problem.

Give audiobooks another try, just avoid those two authors. There are actually quite a few books that are better in audio than in print. A couple of examples of great audiobooks off the top of my head are On Stranger Tides by Tim Powers, Embassytown by China Mieville and the entire Iron Druid Chronicles by Kevin Hearne. All of these books are far superior in audio format. It all depends on the type of book, the narrator and the production.

Away from Scalzi, another problem I noticed with audio books is telling, in the absence of the words 'she/he thought' whether certain things have actually been voiced or not. When listening recently to an audio book the way the reader read one line made me think the character was thinking something unspoken, but I wasn't completely sure, and the wondering was a distraction. Perhaps books really should be adjusted before they are recorded.

There are tricks that a really good voice actor (as apposed to someone who is merely a good reader) might do to make it clear that they're reading internal dialogue, including stage whispers or other alterations to his/her tone of voice.

Alternately, a good audio engineer could alter the sound as an audible cue for internal dialogue. Anything from a slight echo to some almost-subliminal chimes in the background.

But I agree that maybe some alterations should be made to the original text, but only by the author; unintentional changes to the meaning of an author's words are not to be risked lightly.

I found the use of the word "said" much more distracting in the audiobook of Fuzzy Nation than in the kindle version of Old Man's War or Redshirts but yeah, constantly using "said" as the verb for dialogue bugs me as a reader, it's too unobtrusive and doesn't really add any contextual data like volume or mood.

All you need to do is think about the conversations you have over the course of the day - you don't simply "say" everything. Yes, writers probably should avoid using unnecessarily flowery language as it can alienate the audience if they have to go pick up a dictionary every five minutes, but there are boatloads of perfectly good words you can use instead of "said" without venturing to the likes of "asseverated".