The Sword and Laser discussion

Terry Brooks, the mastermind behind the world of Shannara, joins us to discuss what's coming up in the Dark Legacy of Shannara, his ventures into standalone e-books, and the advice he'd give to new fantasy authors.

http://youtu.be/ztu3Xj3UuMo

What was the "too-long for the book club" recommendation that Veronica talked about?

Ryan wrote: "What was the "too-long for the book club" recommendation that Veronica talked about?"

The Belgariad: Volume One

The WHOLE Belgariad series, as in all 5 books? That would be a bit much for a month, I guess.

Who are the writers that Terry suggested?!

Excellent. I loved Brooks first few Shannara books and then I got bored with the formula. That was a long time ago though - probably when Aaron had hair. Nice whiteboard.

Psst -Tom Bombadil is the Fool in Hobb's books.

It was interesting to hear how he pronounced Shannara. I'm one of those who has always pronounced it "wrong". Doing the whole Belgariad would probably be a bit long and the series is a little dated. I'd go with Magician instead. This group needs to read some Feist.

I don't think the whole Belgariad series would be long because the book club use to read two books per month, and its read harder books like 1Q84 and Reamde back to back.

Kim wrote: "It was interesting to hear how he pronounced Shannara. I'm one of those who has always pronounced it "wrong". Doing the whole Belgariad would probably be a bit long and the series is a little dated..."

The only problem that might come up with Magician is that in the United States the book is divided into two parts, Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master. Being split in two parts, there are people who will always think of it has two books rather than one. So some people might not want to read two books in a month.

Louise wrote: "Kim wrote: "I'd go with Magician instead. This group needs to read some Feist"

Never been a huge fan of Feist, except for the Empire trilogy he wrote with Janny Wurts (weirdly, not that much of a ..."

It might have been a great idea to start off with Belgarath the Sorcerer because it contains spoilers for earlier books, even though the book takes place in the past.

Kevin wrote: "The only problem that might come up with Magician is that in the United States the book is divided into two parts, Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master."

The single volume version is available in the US. http://www.amazon.com/Magician-Riftwa...
There's other editions of the same version also available.

I was looking at Sword of Shannara on Audible, and they have the "35th Anniversary Annotated edtion." Has anyone listened to this (there are no listener reviews)? Do they really read footnotes (and how)? I haven't read anything by Brooks yet, and I'm wondering which to try (when I have a credit free someday...)

http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=sr_1_9?...

I was wondering the same thing, Ryan! I do have some credits to use. Granted that doesn't help my goal of reading books I've already bought! ;)

Tolkien, J. R. R, Terry Brooks,David Eddings, Robert Jordan, and Brandon Sanderson are the essential authors for anyone interested in writing epic fantasy. Reading them, you can see how the genre has changed and evolved over time. Anyone interested in writing epic needs that perspective.

Wouldn't Pawn of Prophecy alone be a suitable choice? The club usually reads only the first volume of a series.

Being a Brit. that's how I'd always pronounced Shannara. I found it odd when the show started and Veronica and Tom were pronouncing it oddly.

I love the Belgariad too, but agree that it's a bit too long for one month. How about the Elenium though? It was the first David Eddings book I ever read, and my copy was a hugely thick book combining the whole trilogy, so it's only really like reading one really really REALLY long book. I'd suggest Althalus, but I wasn't a big fan of that one.

First time I have ever heard Terry Brooks interviewed and he was a fun guy!...Aaron I totally empathize with you on the hair thing!! been there done that.

Ana wrote: "Who are the writers that Terry suggested?!"

Patrick Rothfuss
R A Salvatore
Naomi Novik
Rachel Hartman (Seraphina)
Stephen R Donaldson
David Eddings

Along with Goodkind's SOT, Edding's Belgariad is one of the poorest works of epic fantasy ever written. It is just another Bildungsroman style Tolkien rip off. Farm boy saves the world. Almost every trope hit checklist style.

@Daran - Sorry friend but your list of "essential" authors to study for up and coming epic fantasy writers should be an "essential" list of of authors to avoid. Look Tolkien gets his due for being Tolkien, but Brooks, Eddings and Jordan are three of the most overrated authors the genre has ever seen. They write essentially the same book, over and over again, ad nauseam.

Sanderson does have talent, but I wouldn't list him as an exceptional writer. Certainly not an essential one.

I think any aspiring fantasy writer should read a wide range of authors from many genres. Thankfully in the last 10-15 years we have had an influx of exceptionally talented writers who have challenged convention and in doing so, pushed the entire genre forward.

@Ray -Read the whole post. You need to read them to see how epic fantasy has evolved. To see what has worked and what hasn't. Each author has been prominent in help to define epic fantasy at a certain stage.

Incidently, I disagree with you. I don't think that they're overrated. Their books are entertaining, and if you don't like that they are consistent, that's a matter of taste.

If you've got better suggestions, I'd love to see them.

Ray wrote: "Along with Goodkind's SOT, Edding's Belgariad is one of the poorest works of epic fantasy ever written. It is just another Bildungsroman style Tolkien rip off. Farm boy saves the world. Almost e..."

Whether you like it or not Brooks, Eddings and Jordan are some of the most read writers in the history of genre fiction. They are read by millions of people which automatically makes them some of the most influential writers in the genre. Which in turn makes them essential reads for anyone who wishes to know about the state of the genre at this date.

All those talented writers that you mention could have only challenged convention because that convention was set by the writers you discard. None of the modern writers reacting against that brand of High Fantasy would have existed without Brooks, Eddings and Jordan, just as they themselves wouldn't have existed without Tolkien. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, it builds on what came before

For similar reasons Sanderson IS essential. He's one of the most popular writers of the current generation, and I'm willing to bet we have only seen the start of both his potential as a writer (he grows as a writer with every book he releases) and his impact on the genre.

I haven't read Brooks, and only one book of Eddings (Dreamers (or something) which I didn't like at all, but it hadn't anything to do with Tolkien either), but I have read Jordan and your claim that he writes the same book over and over is simply false. True, he does start out with some of the familiar tropes (the farm boy, prophecy, the dark lord, the orc analogues) but both his story and his world evolve into something completely of his own after the first book.

Aside: Why is the "farm boy saving the world" trope always associated with Tolkien anyway? There isn't a single farm boy in his books.

^ Disagree across the board. I would argue authors like Gene Wolfe, Peter S. Beagle, Jack Vance, Tad Williams and George R.R. Martin have had a far bigger impact on where the genre is at the moment.

Jordan, Brooks, and Eddings are simply Tolkien derivatives. I read them all when I was a child. Good guy saves the world was fine when I was 9. Very little in life is indisputably "good" or "bad", black or white. Most everything is some subtle shade of gray, and thankfully most of the better modern fantasy authors create worlds and characters that reflect that kind of complexity.

As for the popular argument, when has that EVER held any real weight? Nickelback has sold millions of records while being one of the very worst rock bands to come around in the last 20 years. Using the popular argument to quantify quality is a slippery slope.

As for Sanderson, I would most certainly NOT call him essential. He is fairly typical trope heavy epic fantasy. He writes quickly, but I don't think he does any one thing exceptionally well. His prose and dialogue are average. His characters are paper thin. It is all very Disney family friendly. If that is your cup of tea, cool, but I certainly don't want THAT representing Fantasy as a genre.

If I had to name five "essential" speculative fiction authors on the fantasy/new weird side of the track I would go with R. Scott Bakker, Patrick Rothfuss, Joe Abercrombie, China Mieville and Tad Williams. Probably toss in Martin as well even if I am not a huge fan of the direction he has taken ASOIAF. Gaiman obviously would get a nod also.

Most of the people your naming are writing Heroic Fantasy, not Epic. darker, grittier, smaller cast, morally ambiguous are all defining characteristics of Heroic Fantasy. That's Abercrombie, Mieville, and Rothfuss.

Big cast, killing the "Dark Lord," focus on world building, numerous subplots, and length (more than three volumes of more than 100,000 words) define Epic fantasy. That's Sanderson, Eddings, and Jordan.

GRRM goes both ways. So does Erikson.

There are exception to each of these, but overall this what writers and editors go by. There are a lot more people writing Heroic these days. Since the 2000s there are more people writing heroic than epic, I think mainly because people wanted grittier stories. I don't think it's particularly innnovative though it's the fruition of what Howard and Burroughs began in the early 20th Century, while the big "Disney" things are the descendents of Tolkien.

And I like Nickelback.

Daran wrote: "And I like Nickelback..."

Nooooo...

Daran wrote: "Tolkien, J. R. R, Terry Brooks,David Eddings, Robert Jordan, and Brandon Sanderson are the essential authors for anyone interested in writing epic fantasy. Reading them, you can see how the genre ..."

This has been an interesting discussion. It strikes me as I look back at Daran's post that started this off that be specifically mentioned these authors being essential for someone "interested in writing epic fantasy." Since the authors that he mentions have long and distinguished best selling careers, it would seem sensible for an aspiring author to be familiar with their works. They may decide that they want to approach their own fiction along a similar approach or they may choose a style extremely distant. But having some knowledge of those who have successfully walked the trail is important for an aspiring writer.

Of course they shouldn't limit themselves to these authors either. I read "The Sword of Shannara" shortly after its publication in 1977. At the time I found it very derivative of Tolkien, but I did enjoy the characters that he created, so I came back for the sequel and found that it improved considerably (IMHO). Over the years I've read a lot of Brooks' work. I loved the Word and Void series and found them to be a nice departure form other works in the Shannara universe. They had a darker and edgier feel. But overall, Brooks writes what I tend to refer to as "quest" fantasies. So there is a sameness to them, but the differences are in the characters. For some, this isn't sufficient. Personally, I have enjoyed his writing and have enjoyed the growth I have seen in him over the past 35 years (has it really been that long!).

Shortly after reading Shanarra, I took a different quest with Stephen R. Donaldson and Thomas Covenant. It had a completely different feel, but I enjoyed it immensely.

I guess for me I enjoy variety. As a newcomer to S & L, I am looking forward to working my way back through the list to get a taste of some of these newer authors. I appreciate the suggestions on both sides of this discussion and look forward to the journey. Next up for me is my first Tad Williams book (Dirty Streets...).

Dan mentions Tad Williams on his 'essential' list, but wasn't The Dragonbone Chair basically a farm boy saves the world type story?

^ Not entirely no. Williams does employ the Bildungsroman trope, but Simon, the central protagonist, is a far more complex and well written character than your typical farm boy.

I could write an essay on what makes Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn one of the very best works of epic fantasy ever written. However, in doing so, I would post a helluva lot of spoilers. I think at this point we have reached the agree to disagree impasse. As I said popularity is rarely a good indicator of quality. What Daran calls "consistent" I call repetitive. Different strokes for different folks.

Yup, we can't all agree and have the same opinions otherwise the world would be a very boring place :)

I agree 100% with your "popularity is rarely a good indicator of quality" statement. For me, a blurb or sticker on the cover "New York Time Best Seller" is usually, but not always, a red flag.

I love that one of the authors that influenced him as a younger man was Faulkner! He is my all-time favorite writer. I had never made the connection to Faulkner's fictional Yoknapatawpha County and the creation of fictional realms in fantasy before. But he's right, it's one of the driving forces of Faulkner's books and probably the main reason I like him so much - the world building.

Alot of the criticisms here about formulaic writing I agree with, In the earlier days of fantasy it was all about someone giving a mission to an unlikely hero and them travelling great distance to complete a task usually against a seemingly insurmountable foe. This turned me off fantasy for some time.

Ironically one of the authors, Terry Goodkind, brought me back.

Yes Wizard's First Rule kind of follows formula but I could easily overlook that because of the quality of his writing is phenomenal in my opinion. It was easily the best freshman book I have ever read. Over the years SoT, I think, evolved into something much greater.

Now with the release of The First Confessor, I feel his writing has hit a new high. I'm not even go into depth about the self-publishing aspect of it. He has certainly broken out of the mold.

County music fans do not hate me for saying this. I equate the formulaic fantasy to country music in that neither is truly open to experimentation.

FWIW, I've been tracking the episodes of Sword and Laser and posting links to all the books/authors that get mentioned in any particular episode. You can find this week's recap here (episode 23).

This is the first time I've had a chance to see an episode in awhile. Great episode, great interview, and I can't believe that I've been saying Shannara wrong all these years.