Horror Aficionados discussion

With thousands of self published and indie authors out there, sometimes you can feel like a drop of water in the ocean. Some of us have had great success getting ourselves out there, some not so much. Is there anything that you have tried that worked? Any sites devoted to promoting indie authors? Any tricks, such as marketing, blogging, even a little spamming? Some authors make youtube videos or facebook pages. Some authors buy ad space on websites.
What methods have you used to promote yourself and which of these were successful or unsuccessful?
Here we can give each other tips on how to get our works to be read, to stand out in a market overflowing with indie authors, many of whom aren't even that good and just flooding the market with crap that distracts readers from the good stuff that indie autors have to offer.

I've not experienced any great success so far, but I have found a few useful things.

1. Having a print version of your book provides extra opportunities for promotion, such as giveaways.

2. Paid ads don't seem to make much difference with sales, but they do help getting your name known.

3. I'm building a presence with blogging, it takes time and commitment.

Most importantly keep writing. Keep getting better and write more books.

Two things that I've noticed since I started self publishing, and I've only been doing this for about eight months so far, is that quantity and quality work best for me. I say quantity because with so many authors out there, if you just publish one or two books or stories no one will find you. I had my novels up on smashwords and in other online retailers for about two months and saw little traffic. Started publishing free short stories and novellas and every time I put one out, my page views and sales would increase. Many retailers will advertise new free ebooks because they know that's what readers are mainly looking for. The more free ebooks you put out, the more you show up on that list, and the more you show up on that list, the more chances you have of being discovered by readers. Every site with a "customers also bought" notification shows that those who download my free stories tend to download most or all of the others, and some of those even bought my novels as well.
Quality is even more important. No matter how many people check your stuff out because it's free or there's so much of it, they won't come back for more if your writing is lousy. Like Michael said, Keep writing. Keep getting better. The better product you put out there, the more readers will want to read it.

My sales increased with doing the free promo thing at Amazon, too. It helps get your name out there, but whether or not your books are just getting lost in that virtual ocean or not is another question.

But I would recommend the giving away free stories. People snatch that up.

I haven't had much success either with my short story collection but, and this is probably where I've found my biggest success, is joining forums like this one and not advertising yourself. Just talk to the members regularly and make friends. Bring up your book occasionally, but not all the time. The making friends part is more important. And the most fun.

This year for Christmas I gave all my goodreads friends copies of my ebooks (well, coupons for free copies). I will bring my book up occasionally, whenever it makes sense to do so. I will talk about my writing in writing threads, or when it comes up in another thread, and sometimes I cite examples, but people will get pretty sick of you if every post is about your book!
With Akeldama I wrote two free short stories that were prequels to the book. These have over fifteen hundred downloads between them (that I know of. Some retailers have yet to report the free books) and it generated a lot of interest in the novel.

I've found that having a steady schedule of new releases helped my sales significantly. Due to illness, I have not worked on a new novel in nearly six months, and in those six months, my sales have steadily declined.

Kindle giveaways helped a lot at first, but the market has become so saturated that they no longer seem to have the boosting power they once held. Goodreads paperback giveaways have proven to be a double-edged sword for me. Many of the people who have won my books here have either declined to rate and/or review or seem to have serious chips on their shoulders where Indie books are concerned.

I have an ad account here, but it typically only results in a few bookshelf adds every week. I tried putting an ad on Facebook, and it seemed to boost my sales; however, my book was just reaping the rewards of an especially successful Kindle giveaway (10,000 copies over the course of three days) and also riding the coattails of the resurgence of Poe interest with the summer release of THE RAVEN (my book is a Poe-inspired tribute), so it's hard to say whether the FB ad had any real effect.

I wish I could offer something more helpful. Hopefully someone else here will have some decent tips to share.

I want to release new stuff, too, as my sales have plummeted since last year when I went on a spree publishing short stories singles and a collection of them. But I've fallen on hard times and can't afford an editor. I usually create the ebooks and cover art myself, but I am reliant on an editor.

Does anyone know any cheap editors out there. I mean, really cheap? lol

Kyle's first suggestion: MORE SEX!

Are you an editor, Kyle?

Personally, I've never used an editor. Never felt the need. While I do tend to miss a few grammar and spelling issues from time to time, I wouldn't feel right having someone actually cut into the meat of my story and telling me what does and doesn't belong. I tend to catch inconsistencies and errors on my read throughs and I do let others read my work and offer suggestions and critiques before publications. My two biggest fans, and biggest critics are my teenage sisters. If they like something, they tell me. If they don't, they tell me. Find people who read a lot and understand your genre and get them to help you, trust yourself and your talent, and reread your stuff to catch problems and you won't have to spend money on someone to edit your work.

I love working with editors. Anything that can make my story shine even better works for me.

I'm going with an editor for my next release. I think it's an essential part of the process.

As an editor - I must say, Editors ROCK!

Shawn M. Garrett
Editor, Pseudopod

I have nothing against editors, and if I was ever to sign a deal with an actual publisher, I would gladly work with one. But for me, it's not only something that at this point I don't really have a need for, it's also an expense I can't afford. I write for readers. My books have all been read by other people or read to them and their advice and criticisms have been taken seriously and used to improve the work. I also read through each piece at least twice after finishing them so that I can catch any problems, errors, inconsistencies, or whatever else may detract from the work. In many ways, I edit my own work. If someone feels the need for an editor, that's great. Even my favorite author, Stephen King, has thanked and praised his editors, and has admitted in many of his afterwards and author's notes how helpful they were. Editors do rock. Just haven't used one at this point in my career.

Slight change of subject: a good cover is not only a thing of beauty, but helps readers understand a book. How have you guys organised the covers for your books?

I do my own, it's quite a fun part of the process for me.

Alec wrote: "Slight change of subject: a good cover is not only a thing of beauty, but helps readers understand a book. How have you guys organised the covers for your books?"

Aeron Alfrey drew the cover and font for my novel Fresh Flesh:



I thought he did an outstanding job. It's an island in the shape of a monster that also serves as a map. Amazing detail and intentionally all black and white. The paperback version looks fantastic.

There are a lot of really talented artists out there. Deviantart is one good place to find them. You can also get recommendations from other authors about who does great cover art.

I work as a freelance editor and have worked with many writers as well as publishers. It's always nice to help writers, though can be difficult: many authors don't need a lot of help, where others barely have the basics of writing mastered at all, which detracts from the story during the editing process. Editing, be it professional or self, can be immensely helpful but i think it's important to master self-editing first. I always read/ edit my novels through at least twice before passing them to someone else to read so most things they notice are superficial rather than anything major.
I think you need to be thick skinned if you're going to work with editors. We are paid to be honest and that's not always easy! I've seen real promise in some stories but unfortunately the authors simply didn't seem prepared to put in the work/ issues raised by the edit.

As for promotion for my writing...I'm still learning as I go but enjoying it so far!

I've done all my short stories and one of the collections. But for the main collection, I hired an artist, Ronnell D. Porter.

For example

By Porter:


By Me:

Aeron's done a great job, Todd. I love black and white - turn loads of my family photos to b&w and they always seem to look better. But the little touch of colour on Isolation's cover works really well too - very Sin City. And from what I was reading of the reviews it sounds like a cracking read. Would it be worth a thread dedicated to covers, artists and how authors chose/created them? Or does it already exist? I'm wondering what Michael's covers look like as well. Going to try and find some now...

Sorry - it's probably bad etiquette to post after yourself... but very professional Michael - where do you get your mad cover creating skills from? I would have thought you had paid someone.

Alec wrote: "Sorry - it's probably bad etiquette to post after yourself... but very professional Michael - where do you get your mad cover creating skills from? I would have thought you had paid someone."

Thanks for compliment. I think working in games for the last ten years has allowed me to gain some small skill from the very talented artists I work with.

Ah, the games industry. Well, your covers definitely look the business. It is quite frightening though - Ardy's comment about standing out (not the crap part though) is very relevant. All the covers look spot on. How is a reader to decide? I was quite proud of my little effort, till I saw these.

Just started a new blog. In addition to my blog here on goodreads, I wanted to start a new site to promote my work. It's an experiment right now, since I have it free for thirty-one days and then can option to buy the site, complete with my own domain name after that. If I see some benefits from the site I will continue.
http://ardybooks.simplesite.com/17078...
I just started it and there isn't much there, but I am going to take full advantage of my free time and maybe expand the site if it brings more traffic to my books, and definitely if I see more sales.

There are two kinds of editors out there. The first are the kinds who work for traditional publishers primarily, giving feedback on all aspects of a work to the author. They tend to be quite expensive. And then there are the second kind, typographical editors, whose main job is to eliminate typos and similar problems. They're not terribly expensive, one I know of charges fifty cents a page for double spaced manuscripts and a dollar a page for single-spaced. I would highly recommend a typographical editor if you're doing a hard copy version (trade paperback, etc.) of your work, since outfits such as Createspace will charge you $50 for a round of revisions (as I recently discovered).

Regarding covers, the cover for my book:


House of Shadows

came from Shutterstock.com. Last time I checked, for $19 you can buy the rights to one of their images for use on an ebook and/or hard copy book.

For marketing, it's now closed to new entries, but I would recommend folks check out the 2013 Amazon Breakthrough Novel Contest. Next year's competition is likely to be very similar to this year's. This year there are five first prizes of a $15,000 advance with a Grand Prize of $50,000. My book is one of the entries this year, first round of eliminations (based on pitches written for one's book) takes place on or around February 13. Here's a link to this year's contest: https://www.createspace.com/abna.

I cannot overemphasize how important a contest like this can be. Some writers in past contests have gained agents and publishing contracts, even for novels which only placed in the quarter and/or semi-finals.

Commissioning editors are the ones who initially accept a book for publication, but it's copy editors who go through the manuscript to rectify problems. I've worked as a copy editor for a number of years for both publishers and authors. When I work on a novel sent to me from the publishers the decision to publish has already been made - it is my job to make sure there are no errors/serious issues with the work so my interest is in making the authors work as flawless as it can be.
When dealing with authors directly, I am always completely honest: I will tell an author is something doesn't work or if there are a vast amount of issues. I appreciate this is not always easy for them but im paid to be honest, and readers would be much harsher im sure. I can't answer for all editors, and I don't doubt there are some unscrupulous ones out there, but there are those of us who work closely with our authors to help them improve. I have always allowed my authors to send me a sample of their work for me to view, and if I don't believe their work needs much input other than basic spelling I will say so...I have never charged an author for work I feel they wouldn't benefit from or need.

My indie sale are just shite on The War Gate, and I haven't quite figured out why. It's a great back-list title that's sold before and I've revamped it for the better.

But, I will say that the sales I know of came from writing groups where I became friends with the populace and actively participated with helpful information and comments.

My blog is really smokin' too, and it's fairly new.

I don't think that the only people who care about self published books are other self published authors, or at least I hope not. Indie books are on the rise and retailers like Apple and Amazon realize this and are working to promote these authors. Smashwords authors are beginning to break onto best seller lists on Barnes and Noble, iTunes, and other ebook retailers, myself included (though I'm very low on the charts, I am there from time to time). The problem is that readers are looking for all sorts of free books to put onto their ereaders. Indie authors are more likely to produce the free stuff, and a lot of that is vanity, but it doesn't make it crap. I have a lot of free stuff out there and it as been downloaded by the hundreds, but I have also sold dozens of paybooks, and not all of them to other self published authors. I've said before that a lot of the indie stuff out there is subpar and would probably never have seen publication had it not been for sites like smashwords and Amazon, but a lot of us just got frustrated with the way the market works and decided to go a different route. Is my stuff as good as Stephen King or Tom Clancy? Probably not, but it's better than some of the stuff I read in both indie and mainstream books and the readers and reviewers seem to enjoy it.

I had a band in college and before we broke up we were on the verge of breaking out onto the scene pretty good. One of our goals was to get signed by a label, but the more we looked into it the more we started to dread the very idea. There was actually a publishing group called "We Own Your Songs." At least they were honest about it, but we felt that unless we were really lucky or really savvy, we would end up compromising our integrity as artists just to make money. That is one of the reasons that I selfpublished as an author. While my stuff may not be as polished as it could be, it is at least mine. I know that there are lots of indie presses and agents willing to let the artist have complete control over their work, but there are others who will edit and change your ideas in order to increase sales. What I like about the way I went about it is that I have complete control over what I produce. Not that I don't try to get it exactly right or try to give the reader what they want, but I know that the finished product is completely mine, good or bad, and that I can be proud of it whether it's being read by thousands or dozens of readers.
Honestly, I would rather have my book on bookshelves worldwide and sell millions of copies at a ten percent royalty than sell fifty at 85%, but that wasn't in the cards at this point. Some short stories that were previously rejected by editors at magazines have found thousands of readers and gotten over a dozen 4 or 5 star reviews because of smashwords.com and books that publishers probably wouldn't have been given a chance are getting readership and rave reviews. My only complaint about the self publishing ebook craze is that there are so many new titles being added every day that my stuff is lost in the shuffle. There are a lot of people who produce works like you described above, and some people are so turned off by that that they aren't willing to take a chance on a selfpublished author because of it.
And one of the reasons I do publish free stories and novellas is to promote my other writing. If enough readers find and enjoy my free stuff, then they are more willing to shell out three or four bucks for the longer stuff.

lol Max on the use of 'wankers' The word cracks me up.

I have to disagree with some of the previous comments. There is most certainly a point in self publishing, but only if you are prepared to do it properly.

Editors especially are not a luxury. They are vital. If the likes of Stephen King (who, in addition to being one of the best selling authors on the planet is also a qualified english teacher) needs one, then every author needs one. The overwhelming majority of people cannot edit their own work properly. It's something that is not cheap (usually around a penny a word for a "real" editor) but its something that any writer should be factoring in from the moment that they sit down to write their first page, and start saving up for.

Covers are another story, but again, its probably worth getting a proper artist involved for the comparatively small amount of money it costs unless you are a graphic designer by trade.

I'm amazed that people will spend months or years working on a book, then ruin it all by ignoring the final polish and rushing out a product that is not finished.

I'm convinced that paying that attention to the detail is why my novel did so well in its first year. I just turned down a $6000 advance for the next book in the series from a well known genre publisher because I want to keep on doing it myself for now.

If people want to elevate themselves above the "first draft uploaded to KDP with a cover done in MS Paint" crowd, then they need to pay attention to the quality of the product they are producing. It's the only way to give yourself even a chance at succeeding.

Well said, Graeme!

I agree with the need for professional editing and cover art, if one can afford it. Sadly, many of us can't. Yes, it's an investment. You have to spend money to make money, but sometimes you have to make money to spend money to make money. If the product is good, then people will want it, and self-edited works can be just as good as professionally edited works if the author puts in the proper time and effort to get it exactly right. My novels go through two or three revisions before publication, which is necessary considering how quickly I write. I have read published books with professional editors and big names behind them that were full of inconsistencies and mistakes and indie books on smashwords that were not. Ironically, the book with the best, most professionally done cover is my least popular while my two most popular stories have covers that were done on MS Paint.
As for self publishing being a dead end, that is no longer the case. Gone are the days when an author had to buy some package deal for a hundred or a thousand hard copies of a book that costs thousands of dollars and the only way to make a profit was to sell them for twenty bucks a pop. The new way of doing your books online for free has not only allowed thousands of authors to upload hundreds of thousands of books (many of which could do with a read through, or in some cases a slap upside the head), but it freed up those of us without an extra thousand bucks or so to get our stuff out to far more readers than the old fashioned way ever would have allowed.
It hasn't cost me a penny to publish my books and I'm making hundreds of dollars from them. It's all profit right now. While readers have thousands of ebooks to download for free or buy cheap, eventually the good stuff will be found, reviewed, recommended, and the lousy stuff will fall by the wayside.
I am eternally grateful to the dozens of readers who have reviewed by books. People who read the indie stuff realize the need for reviews and word of mouth to get their favorite writers the publicity that they need and it's these people who will fuel this new method of publication that is still basically in its infancy.

Maybe you are one of the 0.0000001% of people that can effectively edit your own stuff, Ardy. I know that I'm not. My novel went through three drafts myself, including running through the whole manuscript with a text to speech app, then it went through my writing workshop group. Then it went to a pro editor and a proofreader after that. Typo's, punctuation issues and inconsistencies were discovered at every stage. And I still had to put out another edition after it went live when some mistakes that had slipped through the net were pointed out to me.

I get that a lot of people can't afford to do it properly, but in that case they should probably look for a small press or traditional deal. If a reader buys a book and it's full of mistakes then the chances are that they will never touch a book by that author again. It's not a mistake that any of us can afford to make.

The vast majority of people are word-blind to errors in their own work, no matter how carefully they go over it. It's just the way that our minds work, and its why you always need a second pair of eyes. Preferably still attached to someone who understands spelling, grammar and plotting :)

Completely agree, and I always have a second and sometimes a third pair of eyes go over the novels. My short stories, not so much, but I read them aloud to myself twice before publication. My biggest problem is catching the stuff that spell check doesn't, like omitting words or using "there" instead of "their". I my not be the best editor, but it is one thing I learned in college in my English and writing courses. We had to edit other's work not only to help refine them, but to better edit our own. I can't pay an editor, but I can let others read it and give me pointers and criticisms, and the people who do this for me are more likely to hit me in the face for a mistake than to mark it with a pen.

I have to agree with Graeme on the editing front. One of my pet peeves of reading indie books, is that often they are a great story, but the poor editing and mistakes are a constant distraction.

I made the same mistake myself with my first book. Since then I've made sure to have a professional editor check the text before release.

Man, why do the good discussions always start when I have to leave for work?

Basically, once my novel had paid me back my initial investment, every penny has gone into paying for cover art and professional editing on the next book. I'll carry on doing this going forward, so basically the writing is self supporting at the moment. I might end up being in a position to start taking money out of it one day, but I'm in no real rush as it stands. It's been part of the reason why I've left the sequel so long. I wouldn't release it until it was as good as I could possibly make it :)

Unfortunately I've not reached that stage so I'm left out of pocket, but it's money well spent.

I've recently discovered a group here on Goodreads that looks quite promising, as regards the indie writer. It's called Making Connections. Might be worth a looksee.

I'll add to what people have been saying about editing. It breaks my heart to see a mistake in a book I've just launched, especially when you read that section a million times and didn't see any mistakes.

You can never see your own mistakes :-) I always have at least 3 test readers and still send it out for edit and proofread.

Gods above and below, I hear both of you. After I self-published mine, I kept finding obvious mistakes which I should have caught, but didn't. Repeatedly. Just finished yet one more edit, and have sworn to pony up for a copyeditor for the next book.

Which still guarantees nothing, but at least it will (hopefully) minimize the typos attributable to the editorial version of odor fatigue.

At least with digital distribution it's easy to fix and errors that slip through.

It is, but if you do paperbacks as well then it starts to get costly. Lightning Source charge £42 every time you make a change after you submit the book. Typically, someone pointed out a minor issue to me after I'd signed off on my current release. The ebook was easy to fix, but now I have to decide whether its worth updating the paperback because of the relatively low number of sales I make on them.

A fair point, I use Createspace and it doesn't cost anything to change the text. Although I buy more paperbacks for promotions that I actually sell :-(

I use LSI because the distribution is better and I prefer the quality of the end product. Its not exactly cheap or straightforward to set up, though.

Thanks for the tip, I'm currently Amazon exclusive for everything, but that will change now I've opted out of select, for the e-books at least.

I've still got my first title in Select, but I've been using LSI for the paperbacks for about a year. I'd advise against using them for ebook distribution though, because you get better coverage with Smashwords and you don't have to pay to set the title up. Now that SW allow you to upload properly formatted epubs, they have become a much more viable option than when you had to use their meatgrinder

Thanks.