The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This is the thread to discuss the trial and tribulations as well as emotional experiences of our characters. Please share your thoughts and feelings.

Well, obviously it is not a secret that Mr. Dickens takes time to make the plot moving. This is the most introverted beginning of his novel that I have ever read. He is so focused on the setting, exposition,and small talk that characters practice that a newbie can lose patience, but knowing that Dickens is Dickens, you have to be patient to enjoy the gems he has to offer.

Am I the only one who keeps thinking about Nicholas Nickleby while reading the last chapter of this section. Here is a leech and a 'mentor', Pecksniff, there is only a former pupil, who works for his master and does everything for him, Mr. Pinch, here is a newcomer, Martin Chuzzlewit, Jr. and two sisters, each or both of them with the potential to fall in love with martin Chuzzlewit. Oh, yes, I know, the setting is not as grisly and gritty as in the Dotheboys Hall, and Mr. Pecksniff is 'more refined' than Mr. Squuers, but there is some uncanny similarity.
Basically, these chapters are about human vanity and human predators. Look at the accidental familial gathering when Mr. Chuzzlewit, Sr. is unwell, and every 'leech and bloodsucker' is present to pay homage and witness their name blessed with the generosity of the rich man.
Sarah has mentioned this one, and in this section it becomes even more obvious that the plot might be sacrificed for the sake of satire, social criticism, and picaresque mode.
My personal tidbit of the novel is the defeated expectancy that Dickens masterfully builds when he describes the food served for Martin on the day of his arrival (all those delicious sandwiches, fruit, and even red and white wine), but on the day of the Pecksniffs' departure, the kindness and the consideration of the family is amplified by the leftovers that were served to Martin and Mr. Pinch.
Miss Charity Pecksniff, in consideration of the inconvenience of carrying them with her in the coach, and the impossibility of preserving them by artificial means until the family's return, had set forth, in a couple of plates, the fragments of yesterday's feast. In virtue of which liberal arrangement, they had the happiness to find awaiting them in the parlour two chaotic heaps of the remains of last night's pleasure, consisting of certain filmy bits of oranges, some mummied sandwiches, various disrupted masses of the geological cake, and several entire captain's biscuits. That choice liquor in which to steep these dainties might not be wanting, the remains of the two bottles of currant wine had been poured together and corked with a curl-paper; so that every material was at hand for making quite a heavy night of it.

Boy, don't you feel privileged to be a member of this worthy and noble family?!

I found chapter four to be rather amusing in its ridiculousness. How else could it be when all of these hypocritical and conniving relatives gather together? I laughed out loud several times and felt as though I were sitting in Pecksniff’s house as an observer, hearing the banter. I also found it funny that Pecksniff was listening at Martin Chuzzlewit’s door and that he was caught in the act, although of course he would not admit it. It is interesting that Tigg considers Mr. Chuzzlewit to be the “common enemy,” particularly when everyone wants in on the inheritance.

I also noticed that at first Mr. Pecksniff is given deference, but soon the family begins to turn against him and insult him. I found the chapter’s parting line quite amusing: “Of all the bullyings and denunciations that were ever heaped on one unlucky head, none can ever have exceeded in energy and heartiness those with which he was complimented by each of his remaining relatives, singly, upon bidding him farewell.”

Also, Mr. Pecksniff refers to Mary, Chuzzlewit’s companion, as a “siren,” indicating that she is leading the older gentleman astray, even though she is purportedly not receiving any more than her due wages at his death. Speaking of Mary, does the elder Mr. Chuzzlewit speak only to her out of paranoia that all of the others just want his money?

Chapter 5 is the first chapter that I have really completely enjoyed. Poor Tom Pinch is so gullible and self-conscious, and even though he is a rather pathetic character I find him likeable so far in his good nature. However, I wish that he wouldn’t so blindly put faith in Mr. Pecksniff. As for Mark, he is a self-proclaimed martyr, a funny man who wants to be miserable so that he can attain merit from making the best of things. Ironically, so far this has led to happiness, so of course that won’t do. Is Dickens just poking fun at all of these caricatures?

I think that the younger Martin Chuzzlewit will prove to be an interesting and more well-rounded character. He seems to think for himself and be a confident individual. Apparently Mr. Pecksniff intends to use him to try to get at the older Chuzzlewit’s coffers, judging by his ceremonious welcome and the elaborate house tour and dinner. This Mr. Chuzzlewit also takes advantage of Mr. Pinch’s weak nature and treats him menially, as do the Pecksniffs. I take it that Mr. Pinch is not aware that he is being used so ludicrously, as he himself admits that he has not traveled much and therefore is not wise to the ways of the world. He can’t even have the hope of the girl he admired because she and Martin are in love. I wonder if this is why the older Chuzzlewit will not leave her any money, because he assumes that she will marry his grandson? Yet Martin alludes that his grandfather doesn’t know that Mary loves him. The fact that old Mr. Chuzzlewit still confides only in her seems to support his ignorance of this fact.

The younger Martin complains that his grandfather was obstinate and selfish, which made me laugh because he obviously is too, along with the Pecksniffs. He came to Pecksniff out of spite, and all the while he is having Martin do his bidding as if he were a servant rather than a colleague or teacher, as evidenced by the fact that Martin reads him to sleep and must continue reading even after Martin has dozed off.

I think that the novel is starting to take shape now that there is some conflict, and I would hope that things turn out well for Mr. Pinch, although that seems unlikely.

A lovely critical commentary of the chapters, Sarah. I enjoyed every word of it.

Now the notes from my edition that might explain the literary undertones, cultural and literary allusions, and lacunae.

Chapter Four

a. what's-his-name from which no thingumbob returns: a dim recalling of Hamlet's 'To be or not to be' soliloquy: 'The undiscover'd country from whose bourne/No traveller returns' (Hamlet, iii, i)

b. Peninsular War (1808-1814) waged by Britain, Spain and Portugal against Napoleon's army in the Iberian peninsula.

c. Bridewell: a house of correction

d. Botany Bay; in New South Wales, Australia. Used as a penal settlement by Britain from 1788 to 1840.

e. coverture: the condition of a woman after marriage, under the authority or protection of her husband.

Chapter Five

a. Philip Quarll: hero of the Hermit, an imitation of Robinson Crusoe published in 1727 and attributed to Edward Dorrington.

b. Persian Tales: The Tales of the Genii, one of Dicken's best-loved childhood books, written by Revd james Ridley, but claiming to be translated from the Persian. In the first tale, Adubah is haunted by an old hag whom he finds in a box in his bedroom.

Chapter Six

a. the dove of old: the dove sent by Noah in Genesis 8

b. Elephant and Castle: a district in South London, named after a public house.

c. calender: mendicant dervish

Zulfiya wrote: "A lovely critical commentary of the chapters, Sarah. I enjoyed every word of it.

Now the notes from my edition that might explain the literary undertones, cultural and literary allusions, and lac..."

Thanks, Zulfiya! I appreciate the annotations because I'm reading the book on my Kindle and it has only the text itself. These notes are illuminating. I have to say, is there any literary work post-16th century that doesn't reference Shakespeare in some way? It is always delightful to see how the Bard's influence plays a role in literature!

Intertextuality in action! We actually found some other allusions to the Bard's works in other novels by Dickens, namely in The Old Curiosity Shop. The book that I used was not annotated, but the allusion was easy to spot, and when you decode an intertextual element without the help of the literary academia, it is immensely fulfilling!

Zulfiya wrote: "A lovely critical commentary of the chapters, Sarah. I enjoyed every word of it.

Now the notes from my edition that might explain the literary undertones, cultural and literary allusions, and lac..."

Thanks a lot for the annotations, Zulfiya. Those are really helpful, e.g. I did not know that with "Elephant and Castle" actually a district in London was meant.

Sarah wrote: "I found chapter four to be rather amusing in its ridiculousness. How else could it be when all of these hypocritical and conniving relatives gather together? I laughed out loud several times and fe..."

Sarah, I really like your comments and wished I also had the time and mood to do such a detailed analysis. Unfortunately, I have not had much time and it's already 10:47 pm in "good old Europe".

I had similar thoughts about the comical and satirical family gathering.
Actually, for me it already started right away in th beginning of ch. 4 with Pecksniff coming back from his cousin determined to forgive and love him, and after the "long" period of 4 days not only having forgotten about it, but being even further from it.

Zulfiya, you mentioned Dickens's descriptions of the settings, which might be a little boring for someone, who is not used to it. However, I really like these. He is sometimes rather poetical in his descriptions and by them I always picture the setting in my mind, sometimes even to the point how it should look like in a film adaptation.
E.g. the description of shabby-looking Montague Tigg, who is described to have not just a moustache, but a Satanic one. A little later he says he is proud as Lucifer. So there definitely seems to be something dark and maybe evil around him.
His relationship with Chevy Slyme reminded me also a little of the relation of Mulberry Hawk and Lord Frederick in Nicholas Nickleby , one being more shy and being dominated by the other, who actually expects some material advantages from the relation. As of now, I suppose this is also the case with Tigg. Slyme hardly speaks for himself, and they seem to be in monetary difficulties.

It seems to be very symbolic for this family that they all found out one way or another where Martin Chuzzlewit stopped his journey and was staying, esp. as none of them really has an interest in the others to know about his whereabouts. Dickens does not really give us an explanation for that or I must have missed it.

Well, Sarah, you already described the hilarious scenes of the family meeting. I am intrigued again by the names and characters, like the Spottletoes, or the widow of the deceased brother who seems to have been married 3 times and has 3 spinster daughters (are they all Chuzzlewits or might it be one daughter per deceased husband ;-))
And then even though they dislike each other and cannot agree with one another, they at least do jointly hate their mutual enemy in form of Tigg.

Sarah, I agree with you that Martin Chuzzlewit the younger could become the most interesting character of the novel. I was wondering whether the title, in fact, referred to him or his grandfather. In the beginning I thought it was the elder, but now I do believe it might rather be the younger, esp. with this little intolerable romance at hand.

And poor Mr. Finch. He is more of a servant than an assistant. I really felt bad for him. I think at least at the moment he is the only character I like personally. The others are interesting as characters, but not particularly the ones I would like to be around. Mr. Pinch reminded me somewhat of Kit in the Old Curiosity Shop, a kind, very helpful and humble person.

And at last, it seems quite obvious that Pecksniff hopes to somehow enhance his chances to get to some money by taking Martin Chuzzlewit as a pupil. I was just wondering whether Martin can actually pay him for his education. I cannot remember whether anything was mentioned there, but was not it mentioned somewhere that he and his grandfather had separated on bad terms?

Well, I really like the novel so far, and also its long descriptive images of the settings and persons involced, maybe due to the fact that the last couple of books I read lacked this and it is a feature and talent of Dickens. I am looking forward to continue and see where the story will lead us.

Oops, my comments have become much longer than I thought :-( - sorry about that.

Zulfiya wrote: "Intertextuality in action! We actually found some other allusions to the Bard's works in other novels by Dickens, namely in The Old Curiosity Shop. The book that I used was not annotated, but the ..."

I read "The Old Curiosity Shop" years ago, before I really became familiar with Shakespeare on an academic level, so I will have to reread it! What fun! :-)

Hedi wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I found chapter four to be rather amusing in its ridiculousness. How else could it be when all of these hypocritical and conniving relatives gather together? I laughed out loud severa..."

Literary analysis is kind of an obsession with me, and I can easily get carried away, especially with an author like Dickens! :-) I have to agree that I find the descriptions interesting and poetic, as well; many people I’ve talked to find Dickens to be stuffy and long-winded, but I don’t think so. As you say, he is so masterful at setting the scene, down to the last detail. It’s like being in the novel!

Montague Tigg did make me feel wary when he entered the story, and I will be interested to see how Dickens uses him in the future. Also, I would have to say that so far Mr. Pinch is the character with whom I sympathize the most, although I am curious to learn more about Mary and the elder Mr. Chuzzlewit too.

Hedi wrote: "Oops, my comments have become much longer than I thought :-( - sorry about that."

Delightful, Hedi. I especially like the observation about the names and Spottletoe in particular. Dickens is always at his best when it comes to characters' names. They are like a world reflected in the rain drop!

Speaking of characters' names, Chevy Slyme is excellent! Chevy is similar to chivvy, to annoy or to obtain something by small maneuvers.
Although Tigg does most of the annoying and maneuvering!

I loved Chapter 5! The frosty morning gives us more of the personification of nature with the sun peeking out and the brook running away, etc. And it is bracketed at the end by the frosty night, also wonderfully described. In between we have the bustle of the town and its market, and best of all a tribute to a bookstore!

As a book person I often see quotes about books, we even find them on Goodreads, but I don't remember ever seeing these. It was fascinating to see which books Dickens has fond childhood memories of. And his idea that the book is displayed to show the first page so that a reader will find himself dragged into the shop to buy the book and read the rest - is just the same as an author posting a 1st chapter on the internet to get readers hooked on the story.

I have high hopes for young Martin. He seems not such a prig as Nicholas, I suppose it is his Chuzzlewit blood that makes him naturally selfish - but he is quite charming about it. Interesting contrast between Pinch, who would go on playing the organ for Mary his whole life without speaking to her, and Martin who feels he deserves her.

If she really does love him, that improves my opinion of her as well, that she is not a nunlike figure. Well maybe they are a bit like our noble lovers in Barnaby Rudge (yikes, I had already forgotten and had to look up their names!) Emma and Edward. Emma was quiet and passive, Edward a bit overconfident. Anyway it seems our main cast has been introduced.

When I read last week's section, I just thought Martin Sr. was being completely paranoid about his family wanting all his money. After reading Chapter four, I realized that he was actually being pretty rational. With a family like that, who needs enemies.

Robin, I forgot about the bookshop again, but when I was reading that part I was reminded of the feelings I usually have when I enter a book store. :-)

Wonderful commentaries everyone, they truly enhance my reading enjoyment (and encourage me to keep up!) I have high hopes for our expected heroine, Mary-I would love to see her with some of the characteristics of Dolly from Barnaby Rudge-perhaps with her being not quite a lady and having agreed to a rather unconventional bargain with Mr. Chuzzlewit Sr., she will prove to be somewhat more independent and active than Dickens' more conventional heroines.

I was quite intrigued by Tom Pinch's being an accomplished organist-so much so that he was able to play the organ at Salisbury Cathedral-and how he used his music to bring pleasure to Mary. I can't imagine where he would have been taught or learned to play so well-he mentions that the assistant organist at Salisbury is a friend of his-but otherwise we only learn he was in his Grandmother's care and she was convinced to pay for him to grow up and be schooled in Pecksniff's house. He plays the organ in the local church and practices there in the evenings.

I hope we will be seeing Mark again-he and Tom seem quite similar in many ways-somewhat foolish and yet kind and good-natured and not at all put off by having to work hard for something.

I'm a bit late chiming in here so everyone has made the main points already.

The only thing I have to add is that while I like the book, except for Tom Pinch, there really aren't any sympathetic characters.

While his relatives are greedy (but amusing!), the elder Martin is also obsessed with his wealth. And look at what he is doing to that poor young girl.

Even the younger Martin, while not bad, is very self-centered. When he says, "I have sacrificed a great deal on her account, and might have done much better, you know," you can see his conceit. He is (or was) rich, spoiled, etc. Again, more likable, but Dickens definitely draws that as part of his character.

And Dickens confirms our feelings of young Martin through Tom. Tom, while he likes Martin, is always silent when Martin says thinks that are less than sympathetic. Tom glosses over it, but Tom is nice...too nice, if there is such a thing.

I also have hopes for young Martin - he may mature - but there is that side of him.

The young girl - can't remember her name - will be a sympathetic character, but we haven't seen her enough to get close to her character.

Robin wrote: "Speaking of characters' names, Chevy Slyme is excellent! Chevy is similar to chivvy, to annoy or to obtain something by small maneuvers.
Although Tigg does most of the annoying and maneuvering!

I..."

I zeroed right in on the book store part as well - it was so nice to see that the feelings a bookstore invokes in the soul are just the same then as they are now!

I also got a laugh out of Tom's view on the tailor - this rang true for me too since everything always seems to look better on the manequin than me...:

"Neither had he the least regard (but he never had much) for the tailors', where the newest metropolitan waistcoat patterns were hanging up, which by some strange transformation always looked amazing there, and never appeared at all like the same thing anywhere else."

Robin wrote: "Speaking of characters' names, Chevy Slyme is excellent! Chevy is similar to chivvy, to annoy or to obtain something by small maneuvers.
Although Tigg does most of the annoying and maneuvering!

I..."

Robin, Martin is a thinker and has more life and spirit in him. He is definitely more fleshed out than Nicholas. Now, if he only could beat an evil guy!

Frances wrote: "Wonderful commentaries everyone, they truly enhance my reading enjoyment (and encourage me to keep up!) I have high hopes for our expected heroine, Mary-I would love to see her with some of the cha..."

Francis, Tom seems to be very gifted artistically. As you noticed, he is an accomplished organist, and he also has a semi-apprentice status in the Pechsniff's household. Maybe he is one of those people who believe that freedom of artistic expression is more important that financial freedom. I hope this is not the case, though.

The young girl - can't remember her name - will be a sympathetic character, but we haven't seen her enough to get close to her character.


Lynnm, that't the problem with the young girls Dickens creates in his novels - they are all formulaic and we can't remember their names:-)

Lauri wrote: "Robin wrote: "Speaking of characters' names, Chevy Slyme is excellent! Chevy is similar to chivvy, to annoy or to obtain something by small maneuvers.
Although Tigg does most of the annoying and m..."

Lauri, when I read Dickens I always feel belittled - his observations are apt and precise, and even comical, and these are just daily things we see and witness every day. It takes a genius to put the ideas you have into the words you like:-)

I enjoyed reading the comments about this section - I think you covered most of my observations.

I also saw a bit of an echo of Fagin/Bill Sykes (Oliver Twist) in Tigg/Slyme. Although so far Slyme doesn't seem to be dangerously violent like Sykes. I anticipate that one or both will come to a very bad end.

I absolutely loved the scene when Tom and young Martin caught the Pecksniffs by "surprise" in their "daily activities." We've all seen that in tv and movies, when a character quickly picks up a book (usually upside down) when someone they want to impress comes in. It made me lol.

I also loved it when Martin was looking for a word to describe himself and Tom jumps in with "obstinate!" Martin was so offended and of course denied it but then went on the describe a pretty textbook definition of obstinance.

I haven't read Dickens in a while and forgot that he's usually a slow starter for me. I'm definitely getting drawn into the story now.

Zulfiya wrote: "Lauri wrote: "Robin wrote: "Speaking of characters' names, Chevy Slyme is excellent! Chevy is similar to chivvy, to annoy or to obtain something by small maneuvers.
Although Tigg does most of the ..."

"It takes a genius to put the ideas you have into the words you like." Very good observation on Dickens. I was telling someone the other day who just began writing, "The need to tell the story, not report it." It is not news it's fiction and it is art. The old cliche is that it is not what you say but how you say. Dickens was an artistic genius in HOW TO SAY IT.