Victorians! discussion

For discussion of these chapters

We learn more about Carolyn in Chapter VI, and how she is related to both the Moores and Helstone. It seems that the Helstone brothers were not good husbands, and Carolyn's mother has been out of the picture since she was an infant. Of course, in this sort of novel, this makes us wonder who her mother was, and if she will eventually reappear in Carolyn's life! In the following chapter, Carolyn actually dares to ask her uncle where her mother is, and he tells her he doesn't know, and her mother doesn't want anything to do with her, anyway. There is also a harrowing account of Carolyn's young life with her drunken, neglectful, abusive father.

The scene of Carolyn's evening with the Moores shows a few things, I think. Carolyn seems to see Moore's flaws, and how he does not think about the common people, and she gently tries to reprove him about this. Yet she still obviously adores him. In return, it looks like Robert may have some feelings for his young cousin. He watches her with admiration, aks her whether she would like to spend more evenings with them, and says that if he had his way, she would always live with him. At the end of the chapter, I thought this was particularly revealing:

"This won't do! There's weakness—there's downright ruin in all this. However," he added, dropping his voice, "the frenzy is quite temporary. I know it very well; I have had it before. It will be gone to-morrow."

It sounds to me like he is trying to resist falling in love with Carolyn. His defense, apparently, is to be cold to her the next time they meet, after having been particularly friendly to her. She knows this, but hopes that it will be otherwise. As a result, she is crushed the next time she sees him after this congenial evening together.

More humor with the curates and some of the female Sykes family coming to tea! Donne shows what a jerk he is and how he thinks he is better than the others, by making them wait forever while he finishes his tea.

Moore finds out who is behind the destruction of his machinery and sets a trap in order to have him arrested when the man (Barraclough) comes to the mill with a mob. After they take him, a poor worker tries to speak with Moore about the plight of the men he is putting out of work, but Moore answers him harshly. However, we later find out that Moore asks Joe about Farren, and finding out that he can garden, goes to Yorke to ask him to give Farren a job. It seems that he does care a bit, after all! He is a complex character, and goes from doing things we dislike him for, to showing a softer side that we like.

We also meet Yorke's family, with three quarrelsome sons and two daughters, who are very different in temperament. What do you think of Bronte's revealing what will eventually happen to them, especially the daughters? I found it kind of jarring, and out of place. It seems odd to give us their eventual life history the first time we meet them. But maybe Bronte doesn't plan to follow their characters later in the book, and thinks we will want to know what becomes of them. Still, it seems more like something she should tell us to wrap things up at the end of the novel.

Denise wrote: "We also meet Yorke's family, with three quarrelsome sons and two daughters, who are very different in temperament. What do you think of Bronte's revealing what will eventually happen to them, especially the daughters?"

Like you, Denise, I found it a slightly odd narrative interjection at this point of the story. My assumption is the same as yours that we will not see much of the two girls again and they're only focused on in this scene hence the early reveal (unless their fates will be expanded later as not much detail is given?). I think by foreshadowing their fates it does give extra poignancy to their dialogue and their young attachment to Moore knowing that in the future one will die and one will be alone in a foreign country.

One thing I was unsure of when I finished this chapter was the conversation between Moore and Yorke on marriage. The only thing Moore seems concerned about in a wife is that she is young and pretty, is this really all that is important to him or is it because there is only space in his heart for eighteen year old Caroline and he can't contemplate a marriage to anyone else?

But where is Shirley????
We are at a quarte of the whole book and she has not appared yet. Doesn't it sound strange?
Moore explains himself better in these chapters; but still I don't partucularly like him: as Clari was saying I find what she looks for in a wife quite degrading for women, but maybe it was standard for that time!!!

LauraT wrote: "But where is Shirley????
We are at a quarte of the whole book and she has not appared yet. Doesn't it sound strange?
Moore explains himself better in these chapters; but still I don't partucularly ..."

I think the author was trying to show that women during Victorian times were deemed "good for marriage only." Note that the education that is being offered to Caroline is minimal academically--many thought that, women should learn knitting, sewing etc and note also they are being taught French instead of England and that was on purpose. Finally, although Moore has feelings for Caroline his ideal wife was one who was rich and could help him using her resources, keep his mill going as he was in dire straits financially.

By the way, Shirley comes later...read on. I think the author in these chapters is letting the reader know as much as possible about the other protagonists in the book, namely Moore and Caroline and other secondary characters before introducing Shirley in order to show
comparison.

On another point, she also uses Caroline's uncle to show just what society thought about the role of women in Victorian times. He never thought much of his wife of women for that matter. As for Caroline even though she is his niece he never wanted her outside the house, going to school or working.

I have to admit there are certain aspects of Moore that I can relate to, as in the pervious chapters when Malone shows up to help watch with him when he is waiting for the frames to be delivered but Moore reflects that he would have preferred to face the danger alone. I can relate to that sentiment of preferring solitude and wanting to fight your own battles so to speak without others intervening.

And I found it amusing when Caroline was reading Coriolanus to Moore to try and point out Moore's own flaws and the risk in which he is placing himself, and Moore of course sympathizes with Coriolanus because when I read the play I also tended to sympathize with Coriolanus.

While on the one hand Moore does appear to be aloof and cold towards the common people, I think he is also put in a position in which he has little real options available to him. I really liked how Bronte does seem to be even handed in showing the struggles faced with both sides, and has a very human treatment of the issues.

Moore may be prideful, and seem harsh yet as he pointed out, he is but one man with one mill, his not using the technology will not change it being there, and others will use it no matter what he does and while it might be the noble thing for him to refuse to adopt the new technology and keep the workers to do so would have the eventual affect of putting him out of business of which would not serve the workers any good, and thus only be briefly prolonging their eventual fate.

Perhaps he has no choice but to distance himself from the common people in order to allow himself to make the choices he needs to make for his own sake and his own future.

Silver wrote: "I have to admit there are certain aspects of Moore that I can relate to, as in the pervious chapters when Malone shows up to help watch with him when he is waiting for the frames to be delivered bu..."

I find Moore a likeable character, if not for the position he finds himself in as a mill owner with a mill that is not profitable and at the start of the Industrial Revolution when machines were being used to replace some workers during War time when they could not trade with America which greatly affected profits and life in general for all.

I like the repartee with Caroline and with Mr. Yorkes' daughters. With Caroline he is very civil and with the Yorke girls he knows just how to please them--Rose the youngest and most precocious is just adorable.

He had to do whatever he could to save his business and he was not one to roll over and be trampled on. On the other hand he was cognizant of those who were respectfull and to that end he asked Yorke to employ William Farren even though he was part of the "deputation" that confronted him at his mill. Remember there was a law against willful distruction of machinery for mills and a few in that deputation were responsible for distroying the frames he had ordered and were arrested at that confrontation, Farren was not arrested.

Beve wrote: "Finally, although Moore has feelings for Caroline his ideal wife was one who was rich and could help him using her resources, keep his mill going as he was in dire straits financially."

I read this section a little differently to you. It is Yorke who is saying that Moore should have a rich wife for prudent reasons, whereas Moore believes that the most important thing in a wife is that she is young and pretty (like Caroline).
I think Moore withdraws from Caroline because his focus is earning money, he sees his whole life's purpose is to restore his family's fortune and he doesn't want the distraction of being in love.

Silver wrote: "While on the one hand Moore does appear to be aloof and cold towards the common people, I think he is also put in a position in which he has little real options available to him. I really liked how Bronte does seem to be even handed in showing the struggles faced with both sides, and has a very human treatment of the issues."

I agree. Moore is kind of caught between a rock and a hard place - damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. And he has a very strong motive in that he wants to pay off his family debts and restore honor.

I liked this section greatly and found it quite readable. I enjoyed how Bronte made her characters quite real and utterly human. I did like the foreshadowing element as well as I think it made us look at the Yorke girls in quite a different manner knowing their fates were to be tragic. I do hope they reappear in the novel. Interesting too, was that through these children we did get to see a very pervasive way of thinking. Beauty and certainly not brains would get a lady places, while a male needed honor and duty in order to hold his head up. There seemed such little place for love.

I think the part that illustrated the conflict in Moore perfectly was when he told Caroline to give up on him.

"...'If I could guide that benignant heart, I believe I should counsel it to exclude one who does not profess to have any higher aim in life than that of patching up his broken fortune, and wiping clean from his bourgeois scutcheon the foul stain of bankruptcy.'

The hint, though conveyed thus tenderly and modestly (as Caroline thought),..." (109-110).

It shows that Robert did have feelings for Caroline, and compassion on her feelings for him. He wanted her to understand he was so focused on getting out of bankruptcy that even marriage would be used - not uncommon in those days.

Elizabeth wrote: "I think the part that illustrated the conflict in Moore perfectly was when he told Caroline to give up on him.

"...'If I could guide that benignant heart, I believe I should counsel it to exclude ..."

I totally agree Elizabeth.

Regarding Moore's conversation with the Yorke's on the topic of marriage and his expressing his desire to only marry a woman who is young and pretty, I think part of this is a way of further highlighted the issue (which has been much addressed in other ways in the book) that so many unhappy marriages are made when those that marry do so for reasons other than any true feelings of affection or attraction to their wife (or husband).

While Moore stating that he requires his wife by young and pretty does seem like a shallow sentiment and a dislikable trait within him, I think it also displays that fact that even though it might prove more convenient for him in his situation Moore refuses to be married to a woman of whom he does not have any real affection for, because to do so would only condemn both him and his wife to misery.

While many men might be perfectly willing to be opportunist and marry a richer woman, even if there is no attraction to her, or sentimental feeling about her, and such arrangements were quite common, it made for many unhappy couples.

Moore will not abide to enter into such a mercenary contract, if he to marry it must be to a woman of whom he feels some tender feelings and affection for.

Marialyce wrote: "I liked this section greatly and found it quite readable. I enjoyed how Bronte made her characters quite real and utterly human. I did like the foreshadowing element as well as I think it made us l..."

Marialyce wrote: "I liked this section greatly and found it quite readable. I enjoyed how Bronte made her characters quite real and utterly human. I did like the foreshadowing element as well as I think it made us l..."

Marialyce, I too like the Yorke girls--they are adorable. To your point regarding

"Beauty and certainly not brains would get a lady places, while a male needed honor and duty in order to hold his head up. There seemed such little place for love."

The ninetheeth century female were disadvantaged in so many ways - they literally had no rights. Through out this novel, the author gives the reader a glimpse into what women had to endure-it seems of all the reasons to get married at the time love was not one. In addition, I think, the author used Caroline to show the plight of women of the age--she was deeply in love with Moore but he did not want to marry her because he had other priorities--he seems to break her heart over and over and she was dying of a broken heart,literally, but it did not matter to him because her feelings were not a priority.

Beve wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "I think the part that illustrated the conflict in Moore perfectly was when he told Caroline to give up on him.

"...'If I could guide that benignant heart, I believe I should coun..."

Me too!

Silver wrote: "Regarding Moore's conversation with the Yorke's on the topic of marriage and his expressing his desire to only marry a woman who is young and pretty, I think part of this is a way of further highli..."


I think that is a very sympathetic reading of Moore's speech.
It is an interesting conversation as Bronte is showing that Moore intends only to marry a woman he is attracted to which is almost worthy, but on the other side the only thing he mentions is physicality and youth. There is nothing about the actual character of the woman who he'd want to marry.
Several times in the novel Bronte highlights how essential looks are to a woman's prospects. I think I remember that with 'Jane Eyre' her aim was to create a plain romantic heroine.
I wonder if this novel will unfold as an early feminism looking at the narrowness of a woman's life rather than the examination of the industrial class structure which I was expecting from the opening chapters?

Yes, although Bronte started out by declaring that this would not be a romantic work, I kind of feel that it is turning into one. First we have Caroline and Robert, and I'm sure there will be romantic intrigues concerning Shirley (maybe even a love triangle, as it's looking now). Although I do think that the industrial revolution is also a strong theme, and perhaps even a critical look at the clergy. We have a good range of characters among the rectors and curates. So far, it seems that Mr. Hall is the ideal.

Clari wrote: "Silver wrote: "Regarding Moore's conversation with the Yorke's on the topic of marriage and his expressing his desire to only marry a woman who is young and pretty, I think part of this is a way of..."

I think Moore's emphasis on physical beauty and youth is an act of Moore simply being a product of the time. Men in general at this time were predominately concerned with external beauty so I view Moore's speach not altogether as an inditement against him but suggesting the fact that while practically speaking he should just snag himself a rich wife with no regard to his feelings for her he is unwilling to subject both himself and his potential future wife to such an unhappy arrangement.

Silver wrote: "...I view Moore's speech not altogether as an inditement against him but suggesting the fact that while practically speaking he should just snag himself a rich wife with no regard to his feelings for her he is unwilling to subject both himself and his potential future wife to such an unhappy arrangement...."

Those words reflect my impressions as well -- much as he wants the financial salvation of his mill, he'd rather be single and fighting for success, than enter into marriage strictly for the financial possibilities it might offer.

I wonder how much and are there particular kinds or situations of families today where finances are given considerable concern in making romantic choices, especially in the U.S. and England.

Denise wrote: "...Although I do think that the industrial revolution is also a strong theme, and perhaps even a critical look at the clergy. We have a good range of characters among the rectors and curates. So far, it seems that Mr. Hall is the ideal...."

I agree that this is what Charlotte Brontë seems to be saying among her curates, i.e., portraying Mr. Hall as a kind of ideal against whom the others are weighed. Do we think that she is at all successful in conveying how each of these varying individuals or type he represents may be making his own unique contribution, pro or con, to these communities in which he finds himself being asked to serve? I get more a sense so far of the young curates enjoying the sociability and food and drink within their reach than of being men serving God and his people.

Denise wrote: " What do you think of Bronte's revealing what will eventually happen to them, especially the daughters? I found it kind of jarring, and out of place. It seems odd to give us their eventual life history the first time we meet them. But maybe Bronte doesn't plan to follow their characters later in the book, and thinks we will want to know what becomes of them. Still, it seems more like something she should tell us to wrap things up at the end of the novel...."

Enjoyed yours and others comments on this "time-travel" by Brontë. I, too, found it jarring. Your conjectures may sense -- will be interesting to follow. I linked it a bit to what I perceive to be Brontë's character-describing mode of telling this story.

Another time-related aspect I have been trying to figure out has been the ages of the six Yorke children and the implications thereby about their parents. Brontë tells us that Mark, the second son is fourteen (p115), and that Rose is twelve (p113). So the youngest of the trio of older boys, Martin, must be about thirteen. Little Jessy is free to sit on her father's lap (and also Robert Moore's?), so I think I would guess her age to be somewhat younger than her sister's. I haven't found an actual reference. Also, somehow I figured fifteen for Matthew, but I don't find why again. The littlest one must also be a boy, since we are told there are only the two girls. If he is still totally under the purview of his mother, he is probably three or younger?

Mhoira wrote: "I think money is a definite reason for Moore's choice of a wife other than Caroline being his cousin. I don't think at the time marry a cousin was out of order like it would be today. I find it int..."

Mhoria: I am in agreement with you about Moore's choice of wife--he was in it for the money. I think the author choose to use Caroline as the woman who would marry for love because in Victorian times that was more or less the rule rather than the exception. Perhaps the introductions of the "old maid" (I much prefer "spinsters) was to provide insight to the reader the fate of those wormen who never got married that most thought were doomed because they did not have a man to care for them. These unmarried ladies were independent and lived a fullfilling life through caring for the older folks in the community who had no one else to care for them. Caroline did it because she was a caring person by nature and it was a way to focus on something else rather that her love for Moore.

It seems to me in this book does a fascinating job of looking at the alternatives available to women who (possibly) did not marry (and bear children) in the personages of Caroline and the yet-to-be introduced Shirley. Clearly, Charlotte Brontë is not an advocate of becoming a governess. Given what we know 150 years later, we can still probably only speculate at the indignities and (what we today call) sexual harassment governesses endured.

I'm not so sure Moore was "in it for the money." It seems to me that his need to redeem the family name and fortune gave him a focus that circumscribed his choices. At this point in the novel (and even many chapters later), I am asking whether Moore can be successful enough with his mills and work life to obtain the familial life he would desire.

Lily wrote: "It seems to me in this book does a fascinating job of looking at the alternatives available to women who (possibly) did not marry (and bear children) in the personages of Caroline and the yet-to-be..."

Also Miss Ainley, with her charitable work, provides an example for Caroline of an alternative to becoming a governess. Of course, this does not provide her with a living, but neither Caroline nor Shirley needs to work for a living. Miss Mann is another example of an unmarried woman, but she does not seem to do much; unfortunately, she is ill (perhaps cancer?). I think her purpose is to show Caroline that she should get to know someone in order to know their value, rather than dismissing them just because nobody seems to think much of them.