The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Please share your observations and thoughts below.

I would summarize this section in three words - vanity, hypocrisy, laughter. Oh, how I like how Dickens sheds the exposing light on the Pecksniffs trio. Each of them is delusional, vain, hypocritical, cynical, merciless, and ignorant.
The two sweet ladies are disgustingly repetitive and are willing to do whatever it takes to please their Papa. Mr. Pecksniff seriously believes in his own superiority and is a true supremacist. He is one of those delusional individuals who keeps repeating the good things he ostensibly does, and eventually the power of auto-suggestions starts controlling his mind, and now he is totally convinced that his path is paved with good, kind, and merciful deeds.

I will definitely not sound politically correct, but I sincerely believe that Mercy and Charity were so popular at the party at the Todgiers's only because they were the only ladies present there, and the men were quite inebriated. This episode reminded me of the Russian proverb that perfectly illustrates this fad those two 'young ladies' experienced - there are no ugly women, there are situations when there is not enough vodka. Well, call it arrogant or judgmental, but that was the first thing on mind! I was giggling all the time, reading about this memorable dinner.

On the other hand, Dickens still probes and pokes and explores other issues in the novel. One of them is greed. Anthony and Jonas are definitely not poor, but agree to ride inside only if they would not be asked to pay extra. One of them demonstrated an unusual prowess in language acquisition - mastering the words 'gain' and 'money' as his first words.

The burlesque description of Mr. Pecksniff in his brilliant state of mind was a pure literary diamond - it is one of my favorite passages in the literary heritage, left to us by Dickens. He uses a number of understatements, litotes, examples of metonymy, and irony to convey a full and shining picture of Pecksniff's demise. His desires to have something to drink, and the opprobious words he uses when water is offered. His downfall into the fireplace with the narrow escape( otherwise his hair could have been singed) is heralded as a situation when he 'took it very poorly'. And what about his apt observation when he elaborates on the differences between anatomic and wooden legs! What a romp!

I hope, my friends, your comments will add more literary flesh to my opening post because mine was driven and inspired only by pristine emotions:-)

Notes

Chapter 7

1. Foxe's Book of Martyrs: the popular name for John Foxe's Acts and Monuments (1563), a graphically illustrated and much-reprinted account of Protestant martyrdoms.

2. Court of Requests ... Star Chamber: the Court of Requests was established in 1390 to deal with the recovery of debts. It survived until 1847; Tigg may have had personal experience of it. The Star Chamber was a much-feared court of draconian power, abolished in 1641.

3. Peter the Wild Boy: a boy discovered living like an animal in woods in Germany, brought to England in 1726.

Chapter 8

1. The Monument: designed by Sir Christopher Wren and erected in 1667 to commemorate the Great Fire of London.

2. Black Friar in Don Juan: in Canto 16 of Byron's Don Juan.

Chapter 9

1. Thomas Cribb: the champion prize-fighter (1781 - 1848)

2. Barnwell: in George Lillo's play of 1731, The History of George Barnwell, or The London Merchant, Barnwell was an apprentice who robbed his employer, murdered his uncle and was finally hanged.

3. Mr. Pitt: William Pitt (159 - 1806), Prime Minister 1784 - 1801 and 1804-1806

4. Young Brownrigg: Elizabeth Brownrigg, a midwife, who was hanged in 1767 for whipping three apprentices to death

5. unfortunate young lady of the same name: Miss Baily, who hanged herself with her garter after being seduced and abandoned, in the old ballad.

6. wittle: victuals, food

7. biffins: baked apples

8. 'Tis the voice of the sluggard ... slumber again': from Isaac Watts, Moral Songs, later parodied by Lewis Carroll in Alice Adventures in Wonderland as 'Tis the voice of the lobster ...'

Here are some of my thoughts, though you, Zulfiya, have already mentioned the most striking ones:

What about this Mr. Tigg and Chevy Slyme? BTW, I was reminded by his name of their slimy behaviour. Even though Mr Pecksniff had made it very clear that he would not lend Mr. Tigg or Chevy Slyme any money, he dares to go to the house and ask for money. I am kind of annoyed by them and thought it was quite symbolic for the nice character of Mr. Pinch that he was taking the responsibility and even gave him his half-guinea. I mean it is pretty clear that Mr. Pinch does not earn what he deserves, as Pecksniff himself is too greedy and Mr. Pinch is just too nice to ask for more (e.g. his playing the organ in the church for free). He is the anti-pole compared to the Chuzzlewit family.

Mark is really funny and I found it especially comical that he was looking maybe for a job with a very serious, wicked family. Well, I think he might find a position in one of the Chuzzlewit households. That should be a challenge for him. :-)

Zulfiya, you have already mentioned, the greedy and frugal side of Anthony Chuzzlewit, and what kind of family makes its kids learn the words "gain" and "money" first. It seems so emotionless and cold-hearted, a little like Scrooge, but he turned that way and improved. In this case it seems almost hopeless.

Then the Pecksniffs. Well, the whole time when I was reading about the daughters and their behaviour in these chapters, I felt reminded of the 2 youngest Bennet daughters in Pride and Prejudice. They have a certain arrogance and prejudice and are so incredibly vain and assume themselves to be the center of the world. You are quite right, Zulfiya, they only got the attention for being the only young women in the boarding house and additionally the rule that Mrs. Todgers does not allow female boarders in her house.
And then they way they were almost disappointed that Miss Pinch was not the ugly little, dumb person they had imagined....

I was also intrigued by the description of this rather gloomy place of a boarding house. Pecksniff, who somehow plays the important and worldly person in his village, actually harbours in and takes his daughters to such a weird spot in town, just the description how they get there is hilarious... the maze of alleys, and not streets...

I am a little curious to know about the business, Pecksniff has come for to London. I think it has not been mentioned yet, has it? And is it not interesting that Mr. Pecksniff and Mrs Todgers seem to have been quite close. I wonder whether there is more behind that... :-)

Zulfiya wrote: "Notes

Chapter 7

1. Foxe's Book of Martyrs: the popular name for John Foxe's Acts and Monuments (1563), a graphically illustrated and much-reprinted account of Protestant martyrdoms.

2. Court o..."

Thanks again for the annotations. I really appreciate those. I hope that is not too much work to write them down or do you have them electronically? I feel already bad for you doing this.

The description of the London neighborhood and the inn is wonderful. Dickens walked for hours around London, often at night, so he knew the nooks and crannies. And there is a sort of personification here, as the building seems to try to make everyone uncomfortable in a number of ways.

Hard to imagine traveling overnight in a coach, or on top, in winter with only a heated brick for temporary reprieve!

The way Miss Pinch thinks that Pecksniff is a good employer reminded me of blind Bertha deceived by her father in The Cricket on the Hearth. We see a collision of classes in that scene. The Pecksniffs feel very superior to Miss Pinch, but it's clear that the young lady of the house, and her father,who orders them off his lawn, are of a higher rank yet. A privilege of class is that you can be rude to your inferiors, it seems.

Many entertaining scenes but not much advance of the plot as yet!

Hedi wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "Notes

Chapter 7

1. Foxe's Book of Martyrs: the popular name for John Foxe's Acts and Monuments (1563), a graphically illustrated and much-reprinted account of Protestant martyrdom..."

Hedi, it is enjoyable and even educative to type those notes - I have forgotten some of them by the time I type the notes, so I usually return back to the text and find their context again:-)

Robin wrote: "The description of the London neighborhood and the inn is wonderful. Dickens walked for hours around London, often at night, so he knew the nooks and crannies. And there is a sort of personificatio..."

I like our group's cross Dickens literary allusions. If I were a literary critic, I would say it is a case of meta-textuality, a self-reference, or any other smart word with the similar semantic meaning!

Zulfiya wrote:
I like our group's cross Dickens literary allusions.

For me it's a real benefit of our project of reading Dickens from beginning to end, we can see how his themes, characters, and settings return and develop.

And it's great to share a history with some of you, just as you do with an in-person book group, after a while you have a whole library in common.

Robin wrote: "We see a collision of classes in that scene. The Pecksniffs feel very superior to Miss Pinch, but it's clear that the young lady of the house, and her father,who orders them off his lawn, are of a higher rank yet. A privilege of class is that you can be rude to your inferiors, it seems..."

Robin, you are completely right about that. I thought it was hilarious how Pecksniff tried to sell his services and play the worldly architect, even being offended by Mrs. Todgers's "low" behaviour, when she tried to hand her business card as well, and then he is thrown off the lawn almost like a beggar or a low servant.

Robin wrote: "Zulfiya wrote:
I like our group's cross Dickens literary allusions.

For me it's a real benefit of our project of reading Dickens from beginning to end, we can see how his themes, characters, an..."

I fully agree with that. I really enjoy this Dickens experience, as I do not know many people with whom I can share this passion of enduring such a long-lasting literary journey.

Is Pecksniff dead?

Just dead drunk!

Robin wrote: "Just dead drunk!"

Love the verbal interplay:-)

Lauri, he is fresh as a mushy cucumber in the next chapter! Oops, an oxymoron!
Don't we all wish that people like Pecksniffs never existed?

I also loved the descriptions of the neighborhood in London. What a place London must have been at that time in the 1800s. I definitely wouldn't have made it there - I would have been quite frightened!

As Hedi said, Pecksniff thinks that he is so important and so worldy, and yet he brings his daughter to such a dirty, low boarding house. And they don't mind! In their village, while not rich, they are accorded a certain respect. But they are associating with some unique characters in London. While not the lowest of the low, they are certainly not very high on any social ladder (an understatement).

I'm interested in seeing more of Pinch's sister, Ruth, and the family where she works. While they seemed elitest and proud, it was nice to see them put the Pecksniffs in their place. Of course, they didn't realize that it was their own fault.

My one criticism to date though is that Dickens has introduced a lot of characters, and then we don't see them again. Where is the elder Martin and his young companion?

And where is he going with the story? It obviously centers on greed, but there are so many greedy characters, which one of them is going to turn into the main villain?

I'm currently behind and a bit bogged down with multiple books, but I'm trying to keep up with Dickens! :-)

Chapter 7 illustrates the amusing and almost unbelievable roguishness of some of the novel’s more unsavory characters. I began to notice some character similarities emerging. For instance, Mr. Tigg is comparable to Tom Pinch in that both are devoted (seemingly mindlessly) to their employers, and Chevy Slyme is thereby comparable to Pecksniff in that both delegate the less enjoyable tasks which they must perform. The relationship between the younger Martin and Tom is a prime example of this: “And indeed it may be observed of this friendship, such as it was, that it had within it more likely materials of endurance than many a sworn brotherhood that has been rich in promise; for so long as the one party found a pleasure in patronizing, and the other in being patronized (which was in the very essence of their respective characters), it was of all possible events the most probable, that the twin demons, Envy and Pride, would ever arise between them. So in very many cases of friendship, or what passes for it, the old axiom is reversed, and like clings to unlike more than to like.”

I will say, though, that at least Tom Pinch realizes Slyme’s true character, which he admits to Tigg when the latter asks him about it. I was somewhat surprised because he has such a gullible and kind nature, but it seems that he prizes honesty first in this situation. Meanwhile, Dickens’ anti-American sentiments are coming to light in the form of Chevy Slyme. Tigg says of him, “You are the American aloe of the human race,” and Slyme shortly thereafter describes himself as having an “independent spirit” and “a soul that rises superior to base considerations,” which I interpreted as being a disparaging reference to America. As for Mark, he is obviously a glutton for punishment.

In chapter 8, Pecksniff’s faulty philosophy regarding gratitude is put forth to us. He believes that if he and his daughters were as common as everyone else, then they would not have any sense of gratitude, a humorous sentiment which speaks to his supercilious nature. Furthermore, when Anthony Chuzzlewit and Jonas join the coach (in a deceptive way to avoid paying more fare), Anthony proclaims that Pecksniff’s fault is that he doesn’t have an accomplice in being hypocritical. I thought that this was interesting because his daughters are apparently not considered partners in their father’s beliefs, despite the fact that they share them.

I found Jonas to be a rather alarming character thus far. His attention to Charity and Mercy is disturbing, and we are told that he was raised on the principle of over-reaching, so much so that he can’t wait for his father’s death so that he can inherit.

Mrs. Todger, it seems, is sweet on Pecksniff, and I have to wonder what caused her husband to desert her to become a bachelor. Also, I was quite upset when Mercy described Tom Pinch to Mrs. Todgers as being an “ogre,” a comment which reveals just how much Pecksniff’s behavior and prejudice has rubbed off on his daughters. It would seem, though, that Tom gets the last laugh (albeit unknowingly), when his sister turns out to be quite pleasant in appearance and demeanor.

I thought that the mention of Ruth Pinch’s thirteen-year-old female student in chapter 9 was significant in that it alludes to the fact that formal education was a boy’s (or man’s) venture; she “had already arrived at such a pitch of whalebone and education that she had nothing girlish about her, which was a source of great rejoicing to all her relations and friends.” I was somewhat surprised at the enthusiastic response of her family to this, however.

Mr. Pecksniff’s acceptance of Jinkins’ proposal to have Charity and Mercy eat at the general table affected me in much the same way as did Jonas’ attitude toward them. Is Pecksniff eager to marry them off, or just delinquent in his care as a father and protector? He claims to Mrs. Todgers that he wants to shelter them but that they are growing up too fast, yet he seems to be lax in choosing with whom they associate. I am also curious about the youngest gentleman at Todger’s and wonder what role he might play in the upcoming chapters.

Hedi wrote: "Here are some of my thoughts, though you, Zulfiya, have already mentioned the most striking ones:

What about this Mr. Tigg and Chevy Slyme? BTW, I was reminded by his name of their slimy behaviour..."

I definitely think that Mark could be "happy" with the Chuzzlewits!!! :-)

Zulfiya wrote: "I would summarize this section in three words - vanity, hypocrisy, laughter. Oh, how I like how Dickens sheds the exposing light on the Pecksniffs trio. Each of them is delusional, vain, hypocritic..."

I definitely agree that Mercy and Charity are so popular because they are, excepting Mrs. Todger, the only females present! They bask in the attention, particularly after the episode of visiting Ruth Pinch!

Regarding greed, I find Jonas to be a potentially very dangerous character, due, as you mention, to his deplorable upbringing.

I love your description of the inebriated Mr. Pecksniff; that was such a humorous part of the novel--the most laughable so far, in my opinion!

Zulfiya wrote: "Notes

Chapter 7

1. Foxe's Book of Martyrs: the popular name for John Foxe's Acts and Monuments (1563), a graphically illustrated and much-reprinted account of Protestant martyrdoms.

2. Court o..."

Thanks again for taking the time to type these notes in; they are very informative!

Lynnm wrote: "I also loved the descriptions of the neighborhood in London. What a place London must have been at that time in the 1800s. I definitely wouldn't have made it there - I would have been quite frigh..."

London during this time period certainly doesn't sound like a place I would care to visit, either!

As you point out, the fact that Mr. Pecksniff and his daughters associate with characters of low social status reveals that their chauvinism is superficial and they do not have wealthy bloodlines and the propriety that would accompany.

Sorry my comments are ridiculously late. I usually follow the discussion on my Nook and seem to have a hard time remembering to look at it when I'm on the laptop (where I can actually type at a reasonable pace). I just figured I'd add in my observations before the week officially ends and hopefully remember a bit earlier next week.

Many good points have been brought up already. On the issue of Mr. Pecksniff being a hypocrite I found it amusing just how much he seems to dwell on that term and get offended by it despite the fact that it clearly suits him.

I have to say that Pinch reminds me of Barnaby in a way. Mostly in the fact that he's so simple-minded and trusting. Along with the fact that nearly everyone seems to like him (excepting, of course, the man he most respects). I feel so bad for him.

It also interested me many of the gentlemen at the boarding house were only "named" by some descriptor, such as "the youngest gentleman" and "the gentleman of a vocal turn." Apparently they weren't worthy of names. Even though it appears as though the youngest gentleman may play a role in future events.

I too am starting to wonder where the story is going. The descriptions of the boarding house and the bad behaviour of the Pecksniffs is amusing but I am hoping we will hear much more of Martin Chuzzlewit Jr, Tom Pinch and (I hope) his sister and Mark Tapley soon.

I agree that the description on the boarding house is a brilliant depiction of many of the poorer areas of London at the time. How it is described as being hemmed in on the outside, hidden from the sun and from those searching for it in the centre of a maze of streets, and the description of its interior seems almost as confused and chaotic.

I think Dickens gives such a stark reminder of just how hard life was for those who were poor or working class-the poor quality air, water and food and the difficult living and working conditions. While I think there are still inequities and hardships in 1st world countries today, we have also come a very long way in the last 200 years in terms of social improvements.

Shannon wrote: "Sorry my comments are ridiculously late. I usually follow the discussion on my Nook and seem to have a hard time remembering to look at it when I'm on the laptop (where I can actually type at a rea..."

I, too, am curious about the men at Mrs. Todgers's. I found it funny that they were not given proper names, especially the youngest gentleman. It seems that he will return in some form later on...I guess we'll have to wait and see!

Sorry, dear participants! I have been temporarily ignoring you - this is the first wave of paperwork this semester with loads of reports and essays to grade:-)

Sarah wrote: "I'm currently behind and a bit bogged down with multiple books, but I'm trying to keep up with Dickens! :-)

Chapter 7 illustrates the amusing and almost unbelievable roguishness of some of the n..."

Sarah, I enjoyed reading your keen observations about the Pecksniffs and their ilk, but the other thing that I find 'enjoyable' is the approach that Dickens chose to present this family. His viewpoint is somewhat detached and indifferent, and this creates this feeling of a theatrical performance when the author stages and experiments on his characters.

Shannon wrote: "Sorry my comments are ridiculously late. I usually follow the discussion on my Nook and seem to have a hard time remembering to look at it when I'm on the laptop (where I can actually type at a rea..."

Shannon, a good point about the similarity between Barnaby and Thomas Pinch - they both seem somewhat feeble in their analytic faculties

Frances wrote: "I too am starting to wonder where the story is going. The descriptions of the boarding house and the bad behaviour of the Pecksniffs is amusing but I am hoping we will hear much more of Martin Chuz..."

Frances, Dickens definitely conveys the ambiance of the place with its noises, sounds, smells, and clientele. Dickens's feeling of topicality (any place) is amazing, but I think he is at his best when he describes noisy and populous places.

Zulfiya wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I'm currently behind and a bit bogged down with multiple books, but I'm trying to keep up with Dickens! :-)

Chapter 7 illustrates the amusing and almost unbelievable roguishness of..."

I like the comparison to staging and a theater! Lovely!

I absolutely loved it when the Peckniffs were ordered off the lawn of Ruth's employers! It was nice to see them get a bit of their own medicine.

I also agree with Sarah's comparison of the Pecksniffs with a theatrical performance. That is exactly the feeling I get whenever they interact with people they want to impress. Their true natures become apparent in dealings with people they see as "below" them like Mr. Pinch, and when they are alone together.

Obviously they aren't as "quality" as they think - Mr Pecksniff lodging his daughters in such a skeevy establishment and then allowing them to dine with a group of inebriated single men! Scandalous! Women of their age in that time (ones from good breeding anyway) didn't venture into society without an older female chaperone, and I hardly think Mrs. Todgers would qualify. I almost felt sorry for the girls and wonder if they would have ended up such vain and vulgars creatures if they'd had a mother to raise them. Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder at their living alone with their father. It seems they should have a governess or some other female in the house to teach them propriety. Yet one more example that Mr. Pecksniff doesn't practice the morality he likes to preach.