A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

Why would Ned Keep Jon's parentage a secret from his wife Catelyn ?


I can understand Ned keeping Jon's parentage a secret from King Robert,and I'm on board with him keeping it a secret from everyone else, but why would he keep it a secret from his wife Cathelyn?



I know everyone believe that Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark,and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen , but does anyone think he could be the bastard son of Brandon Stark? We know Brandon had taken many lovers, unbeknownst to Catelyn. So maybe Ned told her it Jon was his because he didn't want to ruin the image she had of his brother?



So Why would Ned keep Jon's real parents a secret from his wife ,Cathelyn?

Are you kidding i'm sure there are lots of secrets he kept from her. He was the warden of the north and she has been forever causing problems by telling the wrong thing to the wrong people.

I think its because Ned promise ,swore to Lyanna before she died. My opinion only :)

If Ned did make that promise to Lyanna, then wouldn't he have done so before he was really close with Catelyn who was originally supposed to marry his brother? I personally cannot stand Catelyn and we have seen plenty of examples of her making horrible decisions behind Ned's back (kidnapping Tyrion) and Robb's (releasing Jamie). She obviously wasn't trustworthy.

I've actually considered at length the possiblity that Jon isn't Lyanna's son at all, but Brandon or Benjen's. Mostly because, I'm ridiculously bored of that theory and I feel people cling to it far too much as canon. When it simply isnt.

I think there is the possiblity even, Jon really is Ned's son.

There is just as much evidence, in my opinion, to support all the theories. Just because Lyanna died in a bed of blood, doesn't mean she died giving birth. The death of The Hound is actually described quite similarly. It wouldn't be completely out of character for Lyanna to recieve a greivous injury that lead to her eventual death.

Brandon is a known "man-whore" for lack of a better term, coupled with the fact that he is with Ashara Dayne the night she is impregnated and the fact that Ned is known to have left Starfall with a child, makes Jon's parentage almost just as likely to be Brandon and Ashara Dayne.

The same could presumedly be said for Benjen, though he was a bit young. Men don't really have an age limit for getting women pregnant...not to mention the first scene with Ben and Jon is pretty interesting in creating the possbility that Ben may have actually been his father, and eventually left for the Wall out of his shame.

Christopher wrote: "If Ned did make that promise to Lyanna, then wouldn't he have done so before he was really close with Catelyn who was originally supposed to marry his brother? I personally cannot stand Catelyn and..."


I do not see why Ned wouldn't trust Cat with that secret , yet Ned trusted Catelyn judgement enough to trust Littlefinger??

Amber wrote: "I've actually considered at length the possiblity that Jon isn't Lyanna's son at all, but Brandon or Benjen's. Mostly because, I'm ridiculously bored of that theory and I feel people cling to it f..."


I starting to think so too. Jon being the son of Brandon Stark is starting to make sense. If Jon was Brandon Stark's bastard son,Ned would keep it Jon's parentage a secret because he wouldn't want to ruin Catelyn's memory of his brother, nor let her know that he was cheating on her .

Nor let everyone in the world know the Stark heir defiled the queens handmaiden then completely ignored her....

Just looks so dishonorable - and can you imagine Ned dishonoring the memory of any of his siblings?

Plus Ashara kills herself shortly after all this...

I think there would still be a reason not to tell Cat if Jon was Lyanna's son. We don't know much about Cat before the events of these books, but we do know that she is "friends" with Littlefinger. And unless her personality drastically changed from when she first married Ned to the time of the events that have made us readers view her as untrustworthy, Ned may have viewed her as not wholly trustworthy as well. The secret is too huge for Ned to tell her just because she's his wife. Also, when he came back to winterfell with a baby, they didn't really know each other at the time. So he said Jon was his. He didn't know who Catelyn might have been affiliated with. That trust hadn't been created yet.

I agree with Aly. When he bought Jon home his relationship with Cat was still very new and any trust between them had not been built up yet.
By the time Ned had built up a trusting relationship with Cat the lie he told about Jon's parentage was too old and would have insantly broken the trust that they had had built.

My thought has always been protection. If the Lyanna theory is correct, then Jon's life is in danger. So are the lives of all who know who his parents are. I've believed this since A Game of Thrones, since Robert and Ned's talk on the way to King's Landing. (Not the exact parentage, but that the names are being withheld for protection of all.)

To be honest, I'd never even considered the possibility that Jon wasn't Neds (I must be Mr naivety!). But after reading this thread I'm starting to see the possibilities, and it's really pretty interesting!

Plus i feel like you are looking at marriage by today's standards, these marriges for the most part were not based on love and trust but on alligences bewteen houses.

And just to throw another wrench in the basket...What if Ashara Dayne is not dead. I mean her body was never found. I think she may be Septa Lemore that was on the boat with Aegon and Jon Connington. She was also noted to have strech marks accross her stomach like those from child-bearing

Meh, I am not sold on the Ashara Dayne theory, Sir Baristan had a crush on the woman and he states that she gave birth to a stillborn daughter and killed herself out of grieve. So it doesn't really match up.
I also don't think it's some fisherwife or some other unimportant woman, I mean their wouldn't be such a mistery around his parentage if it didn't matter plotwise. So he is most likely Lyannas kid.
I think Ned kept it from Cat because they didn't know each other at first and than continued keeping it a secret because it would break the trust they built up.

a lot of people say other people are dead it doesn't really matter what someone says if we did not see the event happen though a pov and there is no body (Words are Wind) and maybe Baristan even knows she lived but protected the secret for undisclosed reason by going along with the accepted story

Kenneth wrote: " maybe Baristan even knows she lived but protected the secret for undisclosed reason by going along with the accepted story "



He protects her in an interior monologue?
Anyway why would she fake her death just because she gave birth to a bastard?
Besides her brother died at Neds hands, why would she give her son to him?
Lemore might be the mother of one of the sandsnakes (Tyene I think)

Barristan Selmy was in Kings Landing and Ashara Dayne was in Dorne when she gave birth...so his knowledge isnt necessarily perfect either, it's second hand information, and third hand when he gives it to us. His belief could be way off base. I wouldn't call that a theory breaker, when it comes to Martin.

I've considered the possiblity she even gave birth to a child of Robert Baratheon - who was also present at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and seems to suffer the same "ailments" as Brandon...
(To jump to conclusions with little to no support, I've speculated that Gendry is the son of Robert and Ashara)
Though I do agree that Ashara could still be alive, I've even read some interesting theories about her being Septa Lemore. I think that would be pretty cool actually. Pointedly, Martin never describes the Septa's eye color. Though I've read argument that if she had Purple Eyes Tyrion would mention it.

Not so sure about that, Tyrion isn't much for judging others IMO, plus, he's sorta always distracted by her nakedness...

On another note - in terms of Lyanna and Rhaegar theories, it's almost just as likely to be Arthur Dayne as Rhaegar for the father. He's with her actually MORE often than Rhaegar has been noted. Plus I just don't see second wifery in Lyanna's character build....but thats just opinion.

oh Snap Anna - you are making think today!

To get way off topic from Jon now...Sorry all.

Maybe Ashara did have Robert's bastard, which led to her presumed suicide because she had the bastard of a man that led to the downfall of a dynasty her family supported and death of her brother. Who was a well respected and highly regarded man.

If that bastard were in fact Gendry, he was shuffled off to apprentice in Kings Landing (where a man with a hidden face then paid twice as much to get him apprenticed) Because if anyone saw him with Ashara they would immediately know who the father was. Even Ned admits it's obvious, and I'm sorry, Ned is not the most astute character...

Gendry or whoever, could have been in danger do to the anger of the Martell's at the time, who were technically the ruling family of Dorne...If they had a child of Robert's it's likely they would use that against him, in a hostage format most likely?

Okay...

/EndCrackpottery...for now.

I think its not a matter of him not trusting Cat with a secret...I think that he didn't trust that she would be able to treat Jon like "her husband's bastard" if she knew that he wasn't. She treats Jon horribly because she believes him to be her husband's bastard and that is what Ned thinks necessary to keep up appearances to protect Jon. If Cat knew that Jon was Lyanna's son she wouldn't be able to act so horribly to him and thus cast doubt about his parentage.

Amber wrote: "oh Snap Anna - you are making think today!

To get way off topic from Jon now...Sorry all.

Maybe Ashara did have Robert's bastard, which led to her presumed suicide because she had the bastard of ..."
Sry for the detour. :P
I think th man with the hidden face was Varys, but didn't Gendry know his mum?
Anyway, maybe we need an extra thread for Crackpottery.

We totally do need another thread.

Gendry has some memory of a woman he believes is his mother, who sang to him, I think it mentions her being blonde - however Ashara is described as dark haired.

it's limited, but there is always the possibility that, if Ashara was his mother, she'd have used a wetnurse. Wylla is the known wetnurse at Starfall, which has recieved no formal description.

At this point I almost don't care any more! Oh...don't hate me...I have no filter lets get in with it already!

I pretty much agree with you Ada-Lee

I almost think it would be awesome if he were just Ned's freakin' bastard.

I think Ned didn't tell Cat because he promised Lyanna not to tell anyone. And Lyanna made him give that promise because she knew Robert would kill Jon out of his hatred for the Tagaryens. Or does that not fit in with the timeline?

Fits the timeline fine. I think thats the main premise behind the theory that L+R=J

Luv_trinity wrote: "Why would Ned Keep Jon's parentage a secret from his wife Catelyn ?


I can understand Ned keeping Jon's parentage a secret from King Robert,and I'm on board with him keeping it a secret from ever..."

I thought about him being Brandon Stark's bastard, but with whom? What about Benjin Stark? We know nothing about him, though, except he's Ned's brother and he's on the Night's Watch and now he's disappeared. We don't know if he's dead or not, just gone.

Jon being Lyanna's and Prince Rhaegar son really does make sense to me, though. While Robert Baratheon says that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, throughout the rest of the series, the stories people tell, the songs they sing, make it seem like a secret and steamy romance. Who knows. I just know I can't wait for "The Winds of Winter" to come out because I really don't think Jon is dead. The more I think about it, I think the book is about Ice (Jon Stark,) and Fire (Daenarys Targaryan).

Hi folks, new to the group.

I think one thing that is telling and certainly tips the hat in the direction of Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son is the scene at the Tower of Joy when Ned goes and finds Lyanna dying in the bed of blood. When she said "Promise Me". Ned and Howland Reed fight their way up to her in the tower, through a member of the Kingsguard. Can't remember which Kingsguard it was... but why would a Kingsguard be guarding Lyanna alone if she wasn't carrying the child of a Targaryen. Remember, that at that point, IIRC, Rhaegar is already dead...

As to why not tell Cat? Hard to say. Lyanna was family. Cat was someone he had to marry before he went off to war b/c his brother was brutally murdered.

Kim wrote: "I think its not a matter of him not trusting Cat with a secret...I think that he didn't trust that she would be able to treat Jon like "her husband's bastard" if she knew that he wasn't. She treat..."

I agree that perhaps he just didn't trust Cat's acting skills and was afraid she'd accidentally give it away.

Kirby wrote: "Kim wrote: "I think its not a matter of him not trusting Cat with a secret...I think that he didn't trust that she would be able to treat Jon like "her husband's bastard" if she knew that he wasn't..."
I agree, Kirby. From reading, we know Cat to be very honest, strong willed and not one for playing false, but also fair. I don't think she would have been able to fake the feeling of being betrayed.

K. wrote: "Kirby wrote: "Kim wrote: "I think its not a matter of him not trusting Cat with a secret...I think that he didn't trust that she would be able to treat Jon like "her husband's bastard" if she knew ..."

yes! also- I was thinking that since Ned probably wouldn't have told her until he truly loved and trusted her, she might would have already been treating Jon as Ned's bastard for a year or two...so then she would actually have to maintain the behavior that she'd already exhibited.

Plus I can't stand Cat. I know that has nothing to do with anything but the fact still stands

@K I've considered the idea that Jon belongs to Brandon or Benjen as well. I always thought Brandon would be more likely. As to who the mother would be...pretty easy actually - Ashara Dayne.

The information of her having a still born daughter is beyond third hand, Selmy was in Kings Landing when she gave birth at Starfall. Also obviously, Cersei and probably more believe Jon is Ashara's anyway and all three Starks were present during the time she was impregnated, which also, coincedentally, fits the timeline of Jon's birth.

@Steve - the kingsguard thing has always been a strong point for this theory. I never held much to the bed of blood thing though. Her death, interestingly, is described very similarly to the death of The Hound. Who, obviously, was not giving birth. But the reasoning for why the Kingsguard are there always tripped me up. Also, it was Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, and I believe a Whent who were present and standing guard.

And Yes, Rhaegar was dead.

However I've always thought it was strange that they would stick around with Lyanna, pregnant or not, when there Kings Wife, Son, and Daughter were all in danger. I'm not sure how reliable they really were though they claim to be keeping vows.

Amber wrote: "@K I've considered the idea that Jon belongs to Brandon or Benjen as well. I always thought Brandon would be more likely. As to who the mother would be...pretty easy actually - Ashara Dayne.

The..."
Good point Amber. I'm fuzzy on the time line. But I think that those three kingsguard could have been separate from the others. For instance, Ned was at the sacking of King's Landing, when he spotted Jaime on the Iron Throne. So, the incident with Lyanna either happened before or after that.. again, I cannot remember. But I'd think it's possible the other four were at King's Landing protecting the current family, while Dayne, Hightower and Whent (thanks for the names) were protecting the future?

I dunno. We churn in speculation, but it sure can be fun at times. I think it might be time for a reread.

Ned goes to the Tower of Joy for Lyanna after the Sack of Kings Landing.
He goes home after stopping at Starfall to return Arthurs sword to his family, I believe.

If I remember correctly the majority of the Kingsgaurd went with Rhaegar to fight at the trident, but Jaime had to stay behind because Aerys was basically using him as a political prisoner. I'm not sure who else (if any) stayed, maybe someone else can tell us?


I believe at the point of the Sack, Aerys wife (Rhaella?) and Vyserys had already left for Dragonstone in the company of William Darry. (Not of the Kingsgaurd)

Okay...I forgot what my point was now...but yes, I love thinking and speculating about this stuff. Jon's birth amuses me to no end, I almost hope GRRM never tells us so we can all cry about it afterward and argue about whose right for eternity. LOL

I believe Jon is Lyanna's son. If that's true, it's not Ned's secret to share--his promise to his sister trumps his trust of his wife.

The Brandon and Benjen theories are interesting, but I really think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's. In GoT, Ned thinks quite a bit about both Jon and Rhaegar, particularly Robert's hate for him. More than once he reflects on how Robert can still hate Rhaegar after all these years, I don't think he would have spent so much time on that if it wasn't important.

As for why not tell Cat? I think it has to do with Lyanna's honor and protecting his little sister. His character is depicted as "honorable" above all else, with Jon as his only slip-up, but he doesn't seem to resent Jon in his chapters as you might expect if he was Ned's mistake. Lyanna was betrothed and Rheagar was married. If Ned told Cat that Jon was Lyanna's, then she would no longer be seen as the innocent she's remembered as.

Ned made a promise to his sister to tell NOBODY. Ned makes a promise then it's a done deal. Simple as that.

I love the idea of R+L=J, but it just seems too neat and tidy. The clues are all wrapped up with a pretty bow at the beginning of the series.

But, that is not how GRRM bounces... His goal is to make us suffer. If it was so wrapped up in the beginning, why is it still the big unknown?

I'm leaning toward his father being one of the Stark boys, if the mother isn't Lyanna, it just about has to be one of the boys. Jon looks too much like a Stark, for him not to have Stark blood in his veins.

I'd like for Ashara Dayne to be alive, and then when all is said and done, Sir Barristan Selmy can go to the woman he loves, Jon can find the mother he has always wished for and everyone will live happily ever after.

I just re-read in ASOS that Jon's mother is Willa. It's quite the discussion and Arya makes a mental note to remember it so she can tell Jon the next time she sees him.
WTF?

Eyehavenofilter wrote: "I just re-read in ASOS that Jon's mother is Willa. It's quite the discussion and Arya makes a mental note to remember it so she can tell Jon the next time she sees him.
WTF?"

Yeah, I still don't buy it. I believe that Willa was the wet nurse and in on the secret, but not birth mother. And since Ned was probably harassed to give the mother's name, Willa would be the closest that baby Jon would have known. Be consistent with that story and it becomes fact.

Because Catelyn would have sold Jon out to Robert in order to protect HER children.

☆ Becky ☆ wrote: "I love the idea of R+L=J, but it just seems too neat and tidy. The clues are all wrapped up with a pretty bow at the beginning of the series.

But, that is not how GRRM bounces... His goal is to ..."

In the 1990's, when he initially wrote the book, he didn't dream of the millions of internet discussions and dissection of every syllable that he wrote.

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned lots of times how Jon has 'The look of a Stark' so he is either what Ned says - a Bastard borne from love or he could be a nephew born to Neds siblings? Either way he kept it secret from Cat because he didn't trust her with the truth. I wouldn't either, she is a hot head and obviously showed that to Ned in the years they have been married and before the books begin (if you know what I mean).

Nicola wrote: "I'm pretty sure it's mentioned lots of times how Jon has 'The look of a Stark' so he is either what Ned says - a Bastard borne from love or he could be a nephew born to Neds siblings? Either way h..."

I agree, Ned knew Cat better than anyone, and he knew she couldn't keep her trap shut about a secret like that. So he evidently he lived with the shame rather than just telling her. ( damn what a masochist ), anyway, unfortunately, he was also the only one who could keep her in line as long as she was within his proximity, but, once she was out of his line of vision, and he could not mentally or psychologically contain her, she sort of "went off her meds " so to speak, and he wasn't there to calm her down and he lost his head for it!
Just a thought.

But I still think Willa is code for someone. That's all.

Eyehavenofilter wrote: "Nicola wrote: "I'm pretty sure it's mentioned lots of times how Jon has 'The look of a Stark' so he is either what Ned says - a Bastard borne from love or he could be a nephew born to Neds siblings..."
Great analogy! I love it!

Eyehavenofilter wrote: "But I still think Willa is code for someone. That's all."

I don't think so. Wylla was Jon's wet nurse for a period of time.

Dionna: message 42: yup yup yup... She would have sold him for sure!
Liz: message 41: Oo ooo good point! Then he wouldn't be at a loss
(and would always have the same answer) when asked!

I think that it's quite clear why Ned keep Jon's parentage a secret. As son of Rhaegar he will have the right to the throne, so it is surely something that he should hide, even from his wife, because it's better to trust no one with this kind of secrets. And, when he first brought Jon home, he didn't even knew Catelyn that well.

If Jon's mother it's not Lyana, than, he is defenetly Ned's son with a Targaryen girl, but this is not such a lickly prospect, because Ned did not have contact with one in time to father a sun.
Also, if Jon's mother was any common woman, there will be no reason for Ned to hide it. If Ned would tell everybody that Jon's mother was a prostitute, or a fisher wife, or whatever common woman, all the questions about Jon would have fade away, so his mother was surely highborn.

Now, we know that Jon have been born in Dorne at the end of the war, but in order to be born at that time, he had to be conceived at the beginning of the war. We know that at that time Ned was in Vale, so if it is his child, his mother would have travel along with him, which means she has a common birth and it's unlikely. In the same time, we know that Lyana was in Dorne, with Rheagar. Ans, about Ned's brother's, one has died to soon, and ass for the other there are no mentions about him being in Dorne. And even if he was, why would Ned assume that his brother's child is his. There is no reason for this, it won't ruin his reputation, because is normal for men to have baseborn kids, so I see mor reasons for Ned's brother to assume that he was the father of Ned's child, that for Ned to assume that was the father of Benjen's son.

Brandom is surely not Jon's father because, as I already said, he died to soon. He did not have time to go to Dorne and father a child, and also, I can't find a reason for Ned to keep this hidden.

So, I am sure that Jon is Lyanna son. He even look very much like her. And, for me this is the only possible solution. And it's most probable that Lyanna died bringing Jon to life, because it's pretty clear that she and Rheagar were in love, so it's no other reason for her to die.

like it Teodora, like it a lot.