Pride and Prejudice discussion

Gretchen wrote: "In defense of Lydia. Did she purposely set out to hurt her family? I don't think so she was really, very young, too young with parents who had not taught her how to behave or what "dangers" are out..."


She was also a part of a family where the parents didn't really have a great marriage. The dad wasn't even that involved with his daughters. Darcy was more involved in his sister's life than the Bennett sisters father was

Gretchen wrote: "@Mitali, of course she would have known not to live with a man prior to marriage. I suppose what I am trying to imply and apparently failing at, is that in her naivety and lack of knowledge of the ..."

There was also bad relationship advice. There is a list of bad advice from this time. One of them was for women to get pregnant to trap a man into marriage.

In my point of view he's taking advantages from Lydia's ignorance. He might have known that Bennett s would return him a fortune to keep a low profile of the incident as all other mistresses aren't married. In that case maybe JANE AUSTEN wanted to create a twist in order to make a good impression was made on Lizzie about Mr.Darcy.

Stephen wrote: "I know that Wickham tried pulling the eloping trick with Darcy but then his mark had a large fortune of her own, plus Wickham would be getting revenge on Darcy as well.

However when Wickham elope..."
I don't think he was eloping with Lydia. He just took her away to use her childishness to his advantage. Then money was offered from Darcy. Suddenly, her value grew.

Wickham is an equally complex character as is Darcy and here in lies the brilliance of Austen. Wickham thrives on attention....the grandeur of being the envy of others and the illusion of being hero worshiped.....is his ultimate narcissistic fantasy. His very profession in life is that of a militia man, garbed in regimental finery; he's the knight in shining armor and there's no one to disprove this. Save for Darcy of course. He is the pseudo 'Darcy' and has been all his life. Remember his initial comments of Darcy when Elizabeth inquires about their history. It's this skewed perspective meant to cast him in the limelight and ride roughshod on Darcy's character...all of which Elizabeth is all too ready to soak up (regarding Darcy anyway) because it fulfills her prejudice against him and soothes her pride. Wickham's actions have always been to his own best interest....a means of maintaining the illusion he wants others to perceive him by. Darcy was first to see him for what he was and evidently, he sought to retaliate by trying to seduce and elope with Georgiana Darcy. Darcy being the true representation of what Wickham wishes to be seen as infuriates him to no end, so he pounces at any opportunity to disprove Darcy's superior character while up-playing his own. The second person to see past his facade is Elizabeth. Of whom, up until their last meeting, would have been a great conquest. After all, he's used to girls such as Lydia following after him like a tail. They are easy conquests because they are easy to read, shallow in terms of their interest/intention thus making him bored. They don't present a challenge, they fulfill his ego and thus his narcissistic personality all too easily. But Elizabeth Bennett is an intelligent and shrewd woman; well-breed and not easily impressed. If he can pull a fast one on her...then he would prove himself to be of equal or greater likeness to Darcy. That is all shattered upon Elizabeth's implied confrontation. He has played this game long enough to know when to retreat. However, his ego is bruised and what better way to spite Lizzie for daring to call his bluff than to soil her sister and her family. Reputation is everything for these people...he knows that more than anyone, always being on the outside looking in. He knows of Elizabeth's pride, it's present whenever she had spoke of Darcy in the past and her prejudice, which he easily fed off of to satiate his need to be the ultimate hero/ good guy. Here in lies Lizzie and Darcy's similarity. It's not their romance that causes Wickham to prey on Lydia in particular, because he could not have had any wind of their inclination to one another. Instead, he knows of their similarities to one another.....because like Darcy, Elizabeth is also good, honest, and just however both of their pride can often cloud their judgement and he uses that against them. When they catch onto him, he lashes out and beats a retreat. This time however, the game gets serious being his regimentals' no longer fulfill his need of self glorification and on top of that, he's incurred debt. Again unlike the character he wishes everyone to perceive him as, so he runs away and there's Lydia, the perfect retaliation against Lizzie, the perfect medicine to his bruised ego, and the potential to gain some form of monetary help. Remember the Bennetts' are not so poverty-stricken that the girls do not have dowries. Also relatives of better standing such as Mr. Gardiner, would have aided in some monetary relief for the sake of saving their name and reputation. Besides, Lydia readily and easily fulfills his narcissistic needs with the false pretense of marriage. He sees it as the perfect opportunity all around. Thus unveiling his true rogue/cad like nature. Again, the creation of Wickham is to cast a contrast between Darcy and him; highlighting Elizabeth's own pride as well as her prejudice. Wickham with his charm and charisma is the epitome of what Elizabeth seeks after suffering a snub from Darcy. Wickham is smooth with words and charming whereas Darcy is introverted thus giving off an air of cold aristocratic superiority. Wickham is fair where Darcy is dark and he is a man in a uniform thus giving him esteem, showing him as honest and hard working (deserving) whereas Darcy has been born with a silver spoon in his mouth and whose title and rank portrays him as the ultimate snob (undeserving). Evidently Wickham makes the perfect antagonist as he makes Elizabeth re-evaluate her own misgivings and contrasts with Darcy to show not only to Elizabeth but to the readers what a truly remarkable hero Darcy really is!

Lydia on the other hand also proves to be interesting because although she is silly and scatterbrained, she proves to be Wickam's ultimate undoing/punishment and the catalyst in bringing together Elizabeth and Darcy. Lydia is 16, which is marriageable female in regency times, she also happens to be a romantic. Growing up in a household of mostly females and under the influence of her mother--whose belief that a woman's highest accomplishment is marriage all serve to mold Lydia leading up to this moment. Lydia, like Wickham serves as a contrast to Lizzie, who is made of far stronger resolve than her baby sister. Lydia strives, throughout the story to always out shine her two older sisters whom are the first to everything. Her childishness stems from her inexperience outside of their country lifestyle as well as her fantasies about marriage; which she perceives to be the ultimate recognition. To marry first--the opportunity presenting itself when Wickham suddenly focuses on her--is almost too good to be true and would mean that she is no longer in the shadow of Jane or Lizzie. Thus she is readily agreeable because Wickham has never been anything other than a militia man to her and she is privy to his true nature and short comings. By agreeing to go away with him she brings Lizzie and Darcy together because only by his actions does Lizzie fully realize that Darcy is changed and that she is in love with him. And finally, Lydia proves to be Wickham's punishment because well Lydia remains silly and talkative even after marriage and proves to be equally attention-seeking.

I think it is also worth a note to mention that Austen's first title for the book was "First Impressions" which could also serve as light into her characters and their actions!

Ashley wrote: "Wickham is an equally complex character as is Darcy and here in lies the brilliance of Austen. Wickham thrives on attention....the grandeur of being the envy of others and the illusion of being her..." Ashley, what a great review. Thank you for an interesting read as I wake up much too early this morning!! Dawn

Ashley wrote: "Wickham ...However, his ego is bruised and what better way to spite Lizzie for daring to call his bluff than to soil her sister and her family...." That was my initial feeling but it wasn't ever explicit which led me to posting this question. Given the number of responses since 2013, I'm guessing that I wasn't the only one who felt that it wasn't entirely self evident.

Stephen wrote: "Ashley wrote: "Wickham ...However, his ego is bruised and what better way to spite Lizzie for daring to call his bluff than to soil her sister and her family...." That was my initial feeling but it..."
Oh, I agree. She's so annoying. So, to wonder why one would fix themselves to her is understandable. I'm not sure my opinion is the correct one. Just the way I saw it.

I think Wickham knew pretty well the state of affairs between Darcy and Elizabeth. Lady Catherine got wind of it, probably via the Collinses/Lucases, the same way that she seemed to have learned of Lydia's disgrace. The rectory servants had seen all the comings and goings, as had the maid at the inn in Derbyshire, whose brother was a gardener at Pemberley. There may well have been a constant stream of gossip passing from one house to another, with Wickham not far from being 'in the loop' as a former member of the Darcy household. He was in a desperate state - in debt, bad reputation, - but with much more to lose by disgracing Lydia while she was in the care of his Colonel. Elopement was the act of a man at his last gasp, relying on Darcy to dig him out. Even so, he ended up in Newcastle which might have seemed to be akin to an exile from all he had previously known.