Green Group discussion

We had a tie for the February 2013 read so we can do both: Neal Stephenson's "Zodiac" and Barbara Kingsolver's "Flight Behavior."

We can discuss Barbara Kingsolver's "Flight Behavior" in this thread.

I haven't started it yet because I'm still only half way through Zodiac, but saw this great quote from the book:

"...You couldn't stand up and rail against the weather. Jack London and Ernest Hemingway, confidence swaggering into the storm: Man against Nature. Of all the possible conflicts, that was the one that was hopeless...Man loses."

Indeed. We think that we can control Nature, fight and win against Nature, and that technology can save us from the ill affects of climate change, but bottom line, it's impossible to do any of those things.

However, I am getting the feeling we can destroy it.

I´m in for this one.

Did anyone guess what that "fire" was?

I haven't started it yet. I'm behind because I have so many papers to correct. After this week, I will be able to catch up.

I'm up to about page 120. So far I've found it a bit wordy. I would prefer for our needs to read a scientific book about the topic. The value of this book is that it will reach a larger audience.

I'm going to start it this weekend. Just finishing Zodiac (which I loved and why I'm reading it sooooo very slow - don't want it to end!).

Next month, we can do a scientific book. But looking at the past reads, I thought they were a bit scientific book heavy - nice to read some fiction for a change. Some memoirs, books on wildlife. A variety of books.

Okay - bought Flight Behavior - will start it tomorrow! (Though, I will be missing S.T. in Zodiac).

I'm about 1/2 way done - really loving it. Unlike Jimmy, I like the fictional account rather than a scientific one.

At first, I wasn't that thrilled with Dellarobia, but now I like what her character brings to the story.

Will have more to say, but am slammed with papers to correct.

Hi - I am new to this group. I happened to finish Flight Behavior a couple of weeks ago. I loved it for many reasons. First it made climate change up close and personal. It also brought our attention to how the changes in weather and destruction of habitat can cause the possible extinction of an insect. The book was rich with metaphors and philosophical discussions about the bigger picture. Finally, I love Barbara Kingsolver admiring her commitment to write meaningful fiction and non-fiction.

Aleia wrote: "Hi - I am new to this group. I happened to finish Flight Behavior a couple of weeks ago. I loved it for many reasons. First it made climate change up close and personal. It also brought our attenti..."

First, Aleia, welcome to the group!

One of the reasons that I like fiction is that allows us to have empathy for the human condition and for social issues. For me, that's something that non-fiction by experts in their fields or investigative journalists just can't do.

I also love Barbara Kingsolver, and it's wonderful when someone of her stature takes on an environmental issues, because people who wouldn't pay attention to the issues normally will be exposed by reading her book.

I can't wait to get back to it - by the end of next week, I should have it done.

Only two more chapters to go - again, just love this book.

I'm post my comments on it tomorrow or Tuesday.

Hopefully others have read it as well. It would be nice to have a discussion on the book. Kingsolver seems to hit everything in the novel.

An interesting take on the book. Can fiction change someone's mind about an issue? (And great picture of a monarch butterfly, the star of the book.)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/12...

Here's an excerpt from the article:

"There's not a lot of systematic research on how reading fiction changes people's opinions or behavior, but one study found that a majority of serious readers reported that one or more books had in some way helped them or made a big difference in their lives. Another study found that people's ratings of their own personalities changed more after reading a Chekhov story than after reading the same information presented as if it were a real court transcript. The fictional version also generated a greater emotional response, even though it wasn't judged any more interesting than the non-fiction version."

I know that fictional books speak to me more than non-fiction books, but I'm sure that it depends on the person. As I've posted before, literature allows us empathy. And for me, definitely there have been books that have changed my worldview.

The New York Times Book Review article on Flight Behavior:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/boo...

What a wonderful book. I truly enjoyed every moment. I am going to miss Dellarobia, Ovid, and Preston.

One of my favorite parts was when Ovid takes on Tina Ultner, the television “journalist.” The canoe heading over Niagara Falls was brilliant. That scene also showed the way journalists edit to get what they want, not what the speaker is actually saying. And that they aren’t journalists in the true sense of the word; they merely are looking for ratings with “news” they feel is entertaining and what their sponsors want: “You’re allowing the public to be duped by a bunch of damned liars.” And lastly, when we find out that Dovey gets it all on her iPhone and uploads it on to youtube. Didn’t expect that.

I’ve often wondered why scientists aren’t on television talking about climate change. Kingsolver argues that they aren’t asked because “it would mess with their story.” Drives me crazy when I see celebrities – who know nothing about science – always being interviewed on climate change. It’s good in one way – at least they are talking about it – but too easy to dismiss as the issue du jour.

The other part that I thought was interesting was the religion angle. Mainstream religion has long been involved in the environment, but not so with evangelicals. And they are important because they have so much influence with the GOP. I think that become politicized for that particular group. Kingsolver though uses the preacher Bobby Ogle to argue why they should be involved. “A love for our Creator means we love His creation.” “The Bible says God owns these hills. It tells us arrogance is a sin. How is it not arrogance to see the flesh of creation as mere wealth, to be scraped bare for our use?” “What have you got against the Lord’s trees?”

And connected to that, she has the butterflies represent two Biblical ways that the earth can end: water and fire. When we first see the butterflies, Dellarobia mistakes them for fire. And then, of course, they leave right when the town is flooding.

She also got in overconsumption and materialism being a cause for environmental woes when Dellarobia, Dovey and the kids go to that second hand store. All that almost new “stuff” that must have cost so much when it was first bought, hardly used, and then just given away almost. And she pins it on the wealthy; it isn’t the poor that are causing all the problems – it is the wealthy with their buying habits.

I wasn’t sure why Kingsolver placed the setting on a sheep farm, except for the fact that she as sheep on her own farm. But as I was reading, even though Hester, Cub, Bear, Dellarobia, etc. all deal with nature in the form of the sheep and farms every day, they really don’t understand nature and aren’t connected to it except as a way to make a living? I’m not sure that is a fair assessment. I think many farmers do understand what is happening.

I also liked how she got Bill McKibben and 350.org into the narrative.

You knew what was coming in the end. It was foreshadowed enough in the novel. But at the same time it was dramatic.

Again, love that Kingsolver took on this issue. She’s always on the NY Times Bestseller List so people that normally don’t hear about the environment just did.
I have more to write but didn’t want to make this too long.

Just finished this book. It's much more character-driven than most of the fiction I read, which bogged me down at times, but it's beautifully written. I found the characters to be believable and ultimately compelling, although it took me a while to warm to Dellarobia. I thought the parallels between the plight of the Monarchs in a world thrown off-kilter by climate change, and the plight of Dellarobia whose personal life has been thrown equally off-kilter, were cleverly drawn. In the end, when Dellarobia has the courage to face up to the harsh realities of traumatic change on both a global and personal level, I found myself cheering for her. She ends up flying off in a new direction, facing the unknown, just like the KIng Billies. Very cool!

I was stunned by Ovid's revelation that some of the same scam artists who cast doubt on the dangers of second-hand smoke for Philip Morris recycled their "junk science" BS to cast doubt on global warming, especially when I googled Advancement of Sound Science and confirmed how very true (and deeply disturbing!) that fact is. How do these corporate shills keep getting away with the same schtick?!?

I was also impressed to learn in "About the Author" that Barbara Kingsolver was actually a biologist before she became a literary star. I guess she was pretty well qualified to tackle the subject of the Monarchs!

Overall, I really enjoyed this. Hopefully, it spread the word to folks who avoid nonfiction, especially of the scientific variety. ;-)

Quickly became one of my favorite environmental fiction books - just loved it.

One of the great things is the Kingsolver is such a popular novelist - even people who aren't looking to read an environmental themed book will run across it.

I posted this before, but one of the things I liked best about the book is that Kingsolver asks and answers why scientists are reluctant to enter a public debate on climate change.

This is what I posted in my review; I loved Preston so much!

"I really wanted to like this book, and certainly parts of it will be staying with me. The best parts for me were:

1. I was mesmerized in the first chapter when Dellarobia first sees the "fire": "Unearthly beauty had appeared to her, a vision of glory to stop her in her tracks." (p. 24) Later, on p. 228, Dell is trying to hold onto that glory even as she learns the truth from the scientists; "She held to the vision that moved her, an orange flow of rivulets reaching over a continent, pulsed by its own internal engine."

2. The whole backstory of Josefina's family, which included the fact-based destruction of the Mexican town of Angangueo, gave a powerful thread of truth to the whole book--especially when Josefina tells Dell that in Mexico, the monarchs are seen as the souls of children.

3. The kindergarten visit to the mountain sets up the great scene of Ovid telling off the newswoman vulture, Tina Ultner--and Dovey posts the whole thing to youtube! This may be the best use of social networks I've read in any book :-)

4. Preston. Period. Del's son is simply wonderful and funny and smart and curious--whenever he was on the page, I loved all parts of the story.

And now--why this book is only 3 stars for me.

1. Dellarobia. There were times I was really taken by her--she has all of Preston's curiosity, and is obviously smart, holding her own with the scientists. However, I got very tired of all her moaning and complaining about her past, her constant crushes on men, etc. And I have no idea why her smoking had to be stressed so much, except perhaps to show that once she started to work in the lab, she quit.

2. The portrayal of the people--both sides were stereotyped in ways that I found both insulting and boring. Perhaps these characterizations were set up to stress Dell's point that scientists can't communicate with "real folks"--but both the scientists and the country people never really became well-rounded characters.

3. The whole sequence with Dovey at the store in Cleary made Dell seem even more self-pitying.

That being said, the monarchs remain the key of the book--they rise above all the pettiness of humans as a tragic reminder of the damage we wreck on our fellow travelers on this planet. I can see that this book might make an emotional appeal to those who don't want to hear the "real science"; however, I would have preferred learning much more about monarchs."

Three stars for me too. The monarchs save the book.

Julia wrote: "Dellarobia. There were times I was really taken by her--she has all of Preston's curiosity, and is obviously smart, holding her own with the scientists. However, I got very tired of all her moaning and complaining about her past, her constant crushes on men, etc. And I have no idea why her smoking had to be stressed so much, except perhaps to show that once she started to work in the lab, she quit. The portrayal of the people--both sides were stereotyped in ways that I found both insulting and boring. Perhaps these characterizations were set up to stress Dell's point that scientists can't communicate with "real folks"--but both the scientists and the country people never really became well-rounded characters.
"

To me, that's what made the book seem realistic.

Sadly, women have historically had to look to men for support and fulfillment. Those ideas are hard to break. Women in the U.S. only began to be "liberated" in the late 60s/early 70s. A lot of the traditional roles and stereotypes are still in place - whether or not we want to admit to them or not. A woman give up on her goals because of a man and baby? Not something that occurred only in the past.

Dellarobia is unlikable at times - she is in incredibly flawed individual. She contrasts with the beauty and vulnerability of nature who have been put in harms way by human activity. But the reader is still rooting for her - just like we are rooting for a very flawed humanity. It also links to the empathy for the plight of the monarchs. Saving the monarchs is connected to saving Dellarobia (from herself at times). Saving nature is saving the human species.

As for stereotypes, I didn't think that Kingsolver was disrespectful at all. Dellarobia is smart and so are a lot of the people around her. But this takes place in Appalachia, where the people are very poor still today and lack education.

As for characters, I thought Dellarobia was a well thought out character. The scientist was not, but that played into the fact that scientists today do not put themselves out into the public eye because they know that they will be attacked when they do so - and defunded, etc.

But just my humble opinion. :-)

Brian, if you want to read about the science Hall of Shame, try this book. It's a must read in my opinion on how some "scientists" prostitute themselves:

Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming by Naomi Oreskes.

Jimmy wrote: "Brian, if you want to read about the science Hall of Shame, try this book. It's a must read in my opinion on how some "scientists" prostitute themselves:

Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scie..."

Thanks for the tip, sir! I suspect this is going to depress the heck out of me... but better to be fully aware than blissfully ignorant.

Jimmy wrote: "Brian, if you want to read about the science Hall of Shame, try this book. It's a must read in my opinion on how some "scientists" prostitute themselves:

Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scie..."

Jimmy - thanks for the book title.

Fortunately, it is only a handful of scientists. But unfortunately, they are the ones who get all the media attention.

I would also like to focus on the scientists - for example, the 97% of climatologists - who do their jobs and who aren't bought off but who are afraid to speak.

They are threatened with defunding, not given access to vital information in order to doing experiments (for example, with GMOs), etc.

Four names need to be placed into the science Hall of Shame:
1. Fred Singer
2. Fred Seitz
3. Bill Nierenberg
4. Robert Jastrow
All four are a disgrace to science.

Read their bios on Wikipedia and get a taste for what they are like.

Information about the dramatic decline of monarch butterflies:

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/mona...

And this one from Mary Holland:

http://naturallycuriouswithmaryhollan...

Unfortunately more and more often, Islam has been associated with terrorism and violence due to the actions of a few extreme individuals who’ve taken it upon themselves to do the most heinous crimes in the name of Islam.
http://www.chatislamonline.org/en/

Why have you posted this here, Noor?