The Sword and Laser discussion

This was such a quick read. Finished it in two days. I liked the story well enough, especially the ending. But I had a slight problem with the descriptions in the book. I often found it to be a struggle figuring out what was going on. Looking forward to the wrap-up video.

I didn't really know what to expect from this book, but I loved it. I was surprised by how quickly I finished it. The descriptions and humor reminded me of Douglas Adams, which I think is part of the reason it was hard to put down. I was definitely drawn in. Although it didn't really slow me down or take away from my enjoyment, I did have to go back a couple of times and re-read a paragraph to make sure I understood it properly. There was just a lot being conveyed and I think it was a bit overwhelming at times. Master Li is undeniably quotable and Number 10 Ox is quite endearing and I found several of the characters stories very touching. It was a very pleasant surprise and has peaked my interest in Chinese myths and legends. Since the copy I picked up was all three books of the series, I am eagerly moving on to the 2nd book.
A thousand blessing for sharing this book.

Erin wrote: "...I did have to go back a couple of times and re-read a paragraph to make sure I understood it properly...."

Don't worry. It becomes much easier to track after the sixth or seventh reading.
:)

I finished it quite quickly, too, in anticipation of a longer read for another book club I'm part of, and found myself rushing through the other club's pick because I couldn't wait to get back to the world of Master Li and Number Ten Ox!

Such a great book, I loved it!

I loved it also! I wasn't sure about it at first, but it totally sucked me in. I am also reading the second book now.

Just finished. I enjoy it but I felt like it would have benefited from being a little longer. I really liked Master Li but felt like I didn't get to know Number Ten Ox as well as I would have liked. It definitely wrapped up quite nicely, reminding me once again of Tigana. Good suggestion, Aaron!

Finished this too! I had a hard time at first because there was a lot of elements to take in to. I like that it followed a sort of structure for each adventure. Each page was really enjoyable (and I did enjoyed it!). The uncovering of the puzzle/mysteries was neatly done in my opinion and I really like it. Another good pick!

Yeah, I just finished it tonight and my biggest complaint was that I had difficulty following what was happening in some of the action scenes. The dialogue was brilliant, the plotting is top notch, the ending perfectly ties everything together, and the prose overall is quite good, but when the action started, I would often have to read a passage 3 or 4 times to get any kind of idea at what was actually happening.

I read it a few weeks ago and really liked it. I may jump into the 2nd book later this month.

The writing style took me a bit to get used to. That first chapter really turned me off initially. I was thinking I could have just skipped it and not lost anything from it until I got to the end.

it actually took me a very long time to read this book. my main problem was one implausible situation leading into another at a break neck pace. they explain it all in the end, but the beginning and middle were thoroughly confusing to me and forced a lot of re-reading. this I'd the first ancient China book I've read. my normal fantasy fare is slower and more descriptive.

The story and the world are so rich, and much of the dialogue brilliant. The goings-on often seem rather fairy-taleish and implausible, so it was a pleasant surprise (as many others have remarked) that the ending twined all those threads so neatly together. In the end, that's what gave it the final push from 4 stars up to 5 for my part.

For me, it really hits the mark well as to what I tend to think of as ancient fairytale China. I wonder what a chinese person would think?

When I started this book, I didn't think I would enjoy it as much as I did. It surprised me with the ending. The different comical characters reminded me of Terry Pratchett. This book was easy to follow, which was another worry of mine. It was also a fast read. I would definitely recommend this book to anyone who is interested in fantasy/sci-fi. I also agree with Geir, I wonder how Chinese people feel about this novel, especially since the writer is from the Midwest.

I am of two minds concerning this book.

On one hand, I finally had an experience like an engineer or scientist reading normal Sci-Fi. I was a PhD Candidate in Chinese History in my misspent youth, so I kept picking up on factual errors in the book (the details of which I won't bore you with, but that place did not exist then, is not located there, they would not be doing/wearing/saying that, that thing/institution/official did not do that, give you a general flavor) and occasional problems in Chinese Language or Culture. These kept pulling me out of the story and made it hard for me to enjoy.

On the other hand, if I place this aside, it was a nice romp with an imaginative style. The author obviously is a skilled writer. In terms of character and plot it was enjoyable overall.

If you liked this, you might want to try Wandering on the Way: Early Taoist Tales and Parables of Chuang Tzu, which was probably an inspiration for this book.

Nathan wrote: "I am of two minds concerning this book.

On one hand, I finally had an experience like an engineer or scientist reading normal Sci-Fi. I was a PhD Candidate in Chinese History in my misspent youth..."

You do realize that this is an alternate Chinese history, right? So, what you know of that actual history of China doesn't necessarily apply. It's a fantasy China, so the author can do what he likes without the need to be 100 percent spot on factually.

I am fine with the fantasy parts of it, the ghosts, the flying machine, the large invisible thing, everything with the ending, etc., but when you set things in Tang China you expect it to be like Tang China, just like you expect the Chicago and America of the Dresden files to be like the Chicago and America of real life except for the fantasy elements. That did not happen.

Just a larger example or two, they kept going to what seemed to be the capital, Peking (Beijing, the name means northern capital), yet there was no city called Peking during the Tang. The author moved Ch'in from the mountains in the west to the seashore. Imagine if Jim Butcher did that with Denver or started calling DC Walnut Cove, with no explanation based in the fantasy.

I could go on if you want.

The question was raised what would a Chinese person think of the book. Although I am not Chinese, I can say certain things mesh well with the culture and history and certain noticeable things do not.

I'm sure you can point out lots of "errors", but I don't think your comparison to Dresden is appropriate. Dresden's universe isn't meant to be an "alternate reality". When reading Butcher, we're meant to suspend our disbelief that magic exists in our own world. With Bridge of Birds, the author puts the phrase "A Tale of China that Never Was" right in the title. It's an alternate reality, and in an alternate reality, anything can be changed. Peking, though it may not actually have exited during the Tang Dynasty, does exist in this universe. Cities are founded by people. If there was a story that took place in an alternate America, whose to say that whoever founded Denver didn't choose another place in the country for that particular city to be founded. Say, Texas. Alternate reality means that anything is possible.

Perhaps we just disagree in how we interpret the subtitle. It is not exactly conclusive how we are suppose to handle the Chinese aspects of the book. Butcher could just as easily say his work is in an America that does not exist. Perhaps some mutual respect and understanding is called for?

This is a honest problem I had with the book. I am not saying anybody else should have it. I am just sharing my experience here, and if it is not welcome I will be glad to delete my posts in this thread.

It's just a discussion. No need to overreact.

I found the interaction between history and mythic fantasy one of the more interesting parts of Bridge of Birds. It left me thinking about where it fell on the spectrum of artistic license; Middle Earth is an imaginary place, so there's no point of reference for people to pick out inaccuracies (though considering the depth of the appendix-lore that's not the best example I could have chosen). Once you use the word China, though, it does call to mind a certain set of ideas. I enjoyed the interplay of fantasy and reality (though I know little about China and its culture, so I wouldn't have noticed any alterations), and hard to think of a book offhand that deals with it in quite the same way. I didn't get an "alternate history" vibe from the book, the way place names would be deliberately rearranged to show how history had taken as different course (like in Man in the High Castle or the Alvin Maker series). If the location shifts were accidental, I'd chalk it up to the dreamlike sense of space and time the story seems to carry. I'll admit I'm curious how much ownership we could say Hughart could claim over his setting; I think we could all agree that if we cracked open a book set in "an ancient China that never was" and the cities had names like Lilliput and Oz, we'd feel a little robbed (or at least confused), so the artistic license doesn't seem to be infinite. The fact that he's not native Chinese only compounds the issue. Interesting stuff!

Nathan wrote: "....The author moved Ch'in from the mountains in the west to the seashore. Imagine if Jim Butcher did that with Denver or started calling DC Walnut Cove, with no explanation based in the fantasy...."

Orson Scott Card does just that sort of thing in his Alvin Maker series, set in a 'colonial America that never was.' I don't think I've heard any complaints.

I understand where Nathan is coming from, but I think he (you) may be approaching the book a little too academically. As someone who has spent a great deal of time studying a subject I can see where it might be difficult for him (you) to set aside so much of what you have learned.
However, as stated by someone else, (I'm sorry I can't remember who) the title of the book does include the phrase 'a China that never was.' I feel that this was a way for the author to let you (the reader) know that while the settings may seem familiar, they are their own and not really meant to be held to anything we already necessarily know. And I feel that would include timelines, places, etc not just extraordinary circumstances like ghosts, monsters, gods, etc.
Using the Jim Butcher books as a parallel doesn't really work well, in that at no time did he say or suggest that he was writing a story from an alternate history of Denver. Instead you are asked to be complicit with the idea that the world contains magic and supernatural phenomenon are real.
In Bridge of Birds in order to progress the story and weave the magical landscape the story is told within, a few (or perhaps many) literary liberties were taken, I think the sub title was a nod to that fact.
I personally don't know much about Chinese mythology or history, but I can attribute a new found interest to this book.

Nathan wrote: "...so I kept picking up on factual errors in the book (the details of which I won't bore you with, but that place did not exist then, is not located there, they would not be doing/wearing/saying that, that thing/institution/official did not do that, give you a general flavor) and occasional problems in Chinese Language or Culture."

You know the book began with a warning about the conflation of time periods in addition to the tagline?

prolepsis (prM lep’ sis), n., pl. -ses (-sz). 1. Rhet. the anticipation of possible objections in order to answer them in advance. 2. the assigning of a person, event, etc., to a period earlier than the actual one.

Also, my cover-synopsis included "Blending fantasy and folklore with social history and the customs of different periods of ancient China..."

Just like Lu Yu lived 100 years after the setting of the story, it serves to give character to his name, bring a famous piece of literature to the minds of many Westerns, and provides the specific pronouncement of his name.

If you have issues like the Peking/Beijing usage, Wade-Giles was still the dominate translation matrix when the book was written.

Most of what I noticed would not jive with any period of history, things that would have been cause for immediate arrest and capitol punishment in any dynasty were present in the open in at least two places for example.

Only the Emperor could employ eunuchs and wear the five clawed dragon. Anyone who did otherwise would be convicted and put to death, because both were symbols of Imperial power. Both happened in the book.

Another example is that it said the Abbot was trained at the Hanlin Academy, but the Hanlin never trained doctors, nor was it used for training in that sense at all. It was a collection of Scholars that the court used for various purposes. People that passed the Jinshi (highest level) exams were sometimes assigned to it if they ere not given another post as a county magistrate.

I have no issue with his use of Wade Giles. To get really technical, his use of hyphenation, which is critical to how Wade Giles is written, was inconsistent, some things were combined when they should have been hyphenated. Some names were translated and some were not, which seemed strange to me.

Erin: "A China that never was," to me, says it is fantasy. It does not necessary mean it is alternate history.

Gad I have see engineers and physicists complain about the physics in most scifi books is bad, and I do not see my objection as that different from theirs.

Nathan wrote: "I am of two minds concerning this book.

On one hand, I finally had an experience like an engineer or scientist reading normal Sci-Fi. I was a PhD Candidate in Chinese History in my misspent youth..."

I totally get it. I've lemmed plenty of sci-fi books b/c I couldn't quite swallow the made-up genetics in the stories. You just can't turn off that part of your brain that keeps pointing out the errors even though you know it is fantasy. It definitely pulls me out of the story when that little voice in my head keeps blabbing about reality. I'm glad that you were still able to finish and enjoy the book overall.

To be fair, I complain about engineers and physicists complaining about inaccuracies in scfi books.
That may be part of the issue, I approached this book as a fantasy first and alternate history second.
And I guess I just save my 'nerd rage' for important things like movie adaptations. ha,ha,ha
Still, Nathan, I hope that you found something enjoyable (academics aside) about reading Bridge of Birds, because I thought it was a lovely story.

Like Amanda said, it is one of those things you can't unsee once you see it.

Wasn't sure I was going to enjoy this book, but I did, up to a point. While it did make me laugh at several points, I also kept getting pulled out of the story by the thinly veiled references to modern fairytales.

Don't think I'd go back and re-read it, or try the other two tales, but I don't regret giving it a try.

I really enjoyed this one as a story. I can completely take Nathan's point that for someone well-versed in a period of history the inconsistencies will pull you out of the tale. I'm curious, though - did you feel it was lazy research, or deliberately done?

I think this is also an excellent example of a book with a "try-fail cycle" plot.

I think it is unreasonable to ask the author to be an expert on these small details so they can please, perhaps 1% of their readership like me.

I spent years of learning to be able to not enjoy this book (tongue firmly in cheek) and would not expect a new author to do the same if he or she is not inclined to do so.

So I don't think it is laziness, per se, but the fact the author had a vision of what he wanted to do and went ahead and did it.

I finished this today. It didn't take me too long, and I have to say I did enjoy it. I agree with others in saying that the descriptions could be rather confusing, but I still thought it was a fun read. Interesting, and enjoyable. Still don't know if I want to finish the series though, one book may have been enough for me.

I also just finished the book. Like others have said, the first chapter was a struggle to get through, but after that, the story was a fun diversion for me.

I did, however need to be in the right mood for the book. This was definitely a book which I couldn't take seriously. So many situations (like Master Li repeatedly bouncing on the fat man's belly) were so unbelievably ludicrous that I cannot picture it really happening.

Many times while reading, I kept picturing a comedic Chinese live-action film with over-the-top special effects. Maybe others did too?

Angela wrote: "Many times while reading, I kept picturing a comedic Chinese live-action film with over-the-top special effects. Maybe others did too? "

That's exactly how I pictured it.


I did, however need to be in the right mood for the book.

Definitely with you there

Brilliant
Absolutely loved this book and am so very grateful to Aaron for the Whiteboard of a Thousand Illuminating Perspicacities.

Rabelasian wit and absurdity blended with Chinese Folklore. Heavenly.

The only thing left to say is, will be getting "The Story of the Stone" to see what Master Li and Number 10 Ox get up to next.

It is quite interesting to see people describing the situations in the book as implausible. Which, in fairness, they are.
But that is the beauty of it. If you like Looney Toons (old school not the modern stuff) then you should have no problems following what is going on.

That's All folks!

Nathan wrote: "I think it is unreasonable to ask the author to be an expert on these small details so they can please, perhaps 1% of their readership like me.

I spent years of learning to be able to not enjoy t..."

Ha! I love that point. I too, get ejected out of most stories where modern computers are featured as a plot device; they almost always get it wrong in a major way; I spent many years of college and workplace training to make it impossible to enjoy such tales, not because the story is bad, but because the research was. Your willingness to give the author credit for not being lazy (he may have worked VERY hard indeed to make the story as good as it was, after all) does you credit.

As for the "debate" against your difficulty in enjoying the book, it's often hard for people to realize that you can't "fix" someone else's lack of enjoyment of something they enjoy. Don't let that drive you from the discussion. Just remember that their response to your well-reasoned and _personal_ issues with the story is just a sign of a slight flaw in their character. :P

Just finished this morning, and found it to be a lovely story well told. Fabulous characters, clever humour, and a spectacular ending. Thoroughly enjoyable...loved it!

I have to say, I think reading 'Bridge of Birds' and expecting it to adhere strictly to established Chinese history is somewhat missing the point of the book. But, as someone else said, it may simply not be everyone's cup of oolong. As for me, I may be going back for a second cup...

Has anyone mentioned Ernest Bramah's books yet? (Kai Lung's Golden Hours, for example, or several others.) I think they were also a major influence on the tone of the book -- fantasy stories written in the early 20th Century that were aiming for a Chinese "style" but had little or nothing to do with actual Chinese culture or folklore. (I think "Chinoiserie" is the technical term.)

Thanks for the heads up Joseph.
Not seen that book mentioned and yes chinoiserie is the correct term even if the spell check doesn't think the word exists.

If you happen to be a gamer, BioWare's "Jade Empire" was heavily influenced by Bridge of Birds, even featuring some of the characters and the marvelous bamboo dragonfly.

P. Aaron wrote: "If you happen to be a gamer, BioWare's "Jade Empire" was heavily influenced by Bridge of Birds, even featuring some of the characters and the marvelous bamboo dragonfly."

Jade Empire is an underrated gem and I desperately wish for a sequel. It also had an excellent soundtrack! I hadn't picked up on the Bridge of Birds connection, though -- thanks for mentioning that.

nice read, impressive- i think i will ask my chinese counterpart at work to give it a read see what she thinks....

P. Aaron, I am in your debt. Thoroughly enjoyed this tale on many levels.

There's a great children's book out in a similar style called Where the Mountain Meets the Moon. The Old Man of the Moon shows up in it, but isn't quite as dark and scary. Highly recommend.

I finished it a couple of days ago, but didn't manage to write the review before. I really liked the book, and think it had everything to make me tingle. Great choice!
My review

I really enjoyed this book, and would like to add to the chorus of voices thanking Aaron for his whiteboard. His review was spot on!

I too found the opening chapter troublesome and had 3 or 4 failed starts. Once I had got into the second and third chapters I was hooked and rattled through the book in no time at all. Without a doubt the best fantasy pick I have read since joining the group a year ago.

Tight plotting, fantastical little story lines, engaging characters and a happy ending. The August Personage of Jade would be most satisfied :-)

So far in 2013 both the books have been excellent and I am looking forward to the March pick.

Just finished last night. I enjoyed it. As others have said, the protagonists are fantastic characters, and I really enjoyed the writing style and humor. If I had any problem with it, it's that during the middle I started getting annoyed with the recurring "go do a quest, go back to the village and find it didn't work, and need to go back out". I know it was a hook to get them meeting the various characters needed to wrap up the final mystery but before I knew where it was going I found it growing tiring. Of course, the end wrapped things up beautifully and made it all worth it.

This is the first book I've read with this group so I appreciate the recommendation!