Support for Indie Authors discussion

I was just browsing the thread about shows people are watching and noticed a number of good folks talking about "Starman". I came ( ) that close to hijacking the thread to mention that in my story "Rachel, Roswell & The Alien" I make a brief reference to "Starman" by having Felix, the alien, singing "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction".

Instead of hijacking that thread, I thought I'd start a new one and ask all you wonderful writers, do you do this, too? Do you make reference to other books or films or TV shows or songs, etc. in your stories? I do it all the time. In the same tale, for example, I make reference to the Screamin' Jay Hawkins song "There's Something Wrong With You" here:

Rachel shook her head. “You’re one mental alien.”
“There’s something wrong with you,” said Roswell.
“Kidnap me! You want to kidnap me! I’m letting you do it! You can feed me anything you want! Pumpkins and pickles and monkey toes and gorilla ribs. I don’t care. Feed me anything.”

I think it's from watching a few too many episodes of "Mystery Science Theater 3000".

Just don't be quoting any song lyrics Dwayne.

Musicians have much better lawyers than you do. ;)

Haha, yeah I noticed that Dwayne. :)

I have a reference to Starman too in my book Fate. LX watched the movie of course he liked it. After the show, He says he hopes to meet a being made out of light/energy some day during one of his missions.

Since Starman was a strong influence for me, I thought it would be a nice touch to add something about it in the book.

C.B. wrote: "Just don't be quoting any song lyrics Dwayne."

I know. And that kills me. So often I could quote a song that goes along with my story / stories, but I know I can't do that. The example above is not exactly the lyrics of "Something's Wrong With You", just close enough that if anyone knows the song they'll recognize it.

G.G. wrote: "I have a reference to Starman too in my book Fate. "

Sweet! It's on my list to read one day (ever since our discussion of LX's name).

Funny enough I was thinking this the other day. I removed a reference to an iPad and replaced with tablet. I've no idea what the rules are. I've read so many books that include song refs and playlists...I'm assuming it's fine as long as the lyrics are acknowledged in some way. Rather like referencing work in an essay??

Annie B wrote: "I'm assuming it's fine as long as the lyrics are acknowledged in some way."

Maybe in some cases, but to play it safe it would be best to write to the publisher of the lyrics and ask permission. More than likely you'll have to pay a royalty fee.

As far as mentioning products by name, I've read that it's fine as long as you're not saying anything detrimental or false about the product. Y'know, if you want to mention someone doing their laundry with Cheer detergent, you should be fine, but if you claim that using that detergent caused their clothes to fall apart or their washing machine to break down, best to come up with a fake brand name or not to mention the detergent by name.

I will admit I have a skittles joke in my books. It was too hard to pass up.

In my next serial, urban punk, I just mention that the song starts of a couple of songs. Other than that I try not to reference too much pop culture... Not directly anyways

My books are really just an excuse to make pop culture references. Heck, in one of them I even added the Konami code.

Christina wrote: "My books are really just an excuse to make pop culture references. Heck, in one of them I even added the Konami code."

Oh yeah. I totally have that too. *Thumbs up for awesome!*

C.B. wrote: "Oh yeah. I totally have that too. *Thumbs up for awesome!*"

I would expect no less from a book set in a game, but do I want to know what you get by using it in your universe? ;)

Christina wrote: "My books are really just an excuse to make pop culture references."

Ha ha! Sometimes I feel that way, too.

So authors who do the 'author playlist' have to contact all of them??? That's impressive :)

Christina wrote: "C.B. wrote: "Oh yeah. I totally have that too. *Thumbs up for awesome!*"

I would expect no less from a book set in a game, but do I want to know what you get by using it in your universe? ;)"

:D It actually is the directions for how to escape that stupid area that constantly puts you on the same screen and you have to solve it by going in different directions in the right order. Like a Lost Woods.
No one seems to notice, but I tossed in in there.

Annie B wrote: "So authors who do the 'author playlist' have to contact all of them??? That's impressive :)"

I guess I'm not familiar with the "author playlist". I have considered putting a list of songs I would recommend people listen to while reading my stories. Is that what you mean? As long as one doesn't quote lyrics, one is fine. Titles of songs are not copyrighted.

Ah ha, that explains it Dwayne, I misunderstood.

C.B. wrote: "Just don't be quoting any song lyrics Dwayne.

Musicians have much better lawyers than you do. ;)"

I think "fair use" still applies, but on song lyrics, I don't know what the limit might be.

We do make very occasional reference to songs or books in our series, which might seem a little odd, given what we write. Just our vote for what we think should be "timeless". (I'm afraid no TV shows have made the cut yet.)

One of our upcoming books was actually inspired by a song, and we've been toying with how to drop a hint as to which song it is.

Owen wrote: "I think "fair use" still applies, but on song lyrics, I don't know what the limit might be."

Could be, but I do know in some situations, it's best to get permission to use the lyrics, even if it's only a short line. There may be some situations where "fair use" would come into play. A nonfictional account of Charles Manson with detailed analysis of the lyrics to "Helter Skelter" might qualify.

In my first novel the main character was practically raised by a future version of TV and movies, and the book makes constant references to actors of the past, present (today), and future—even to quoting lines from those movies.

Dwayne wrote: "Could be, but I do know in some situations, it's best to get permission to use the lyrics,..."

It would appear that it does not apply. Fair use can't be applied to fiction (as a rule).

'Does “Fair Use” of music lyrics exist on any level within the realm of a fictional publication or do I have to get permission to use someone else’s lyrics, not to any great extent, no matter what?'

'If you intend to sell this work, it likely will not constitute fair use. Fair use usually applies to the reproduction of copyrighted material for educational or critical purposes. It doesn't apply to commercial fictional publication. Fair use is used when it is more beneficial for the copyrighted work to be out in the public than it is to protect the owner's rights to that work. This most likely will not exist in your case, should you be looking to sell a fiction book with these lyrics.

Robert McEwen, Esq., Lawyer'

http://www.justanswer.com/intellectua...

"Do you make reference to other books or films or TV shows or songs, etc. in your stories?"

Oh, absolutely! My characters refer to Star Trek, rock and roll songs, books, even old sea shanties.

Morris

I think most of my references come from UK TV shows...comedy shows mainly but some others. And I do tend to change them or delete them in editing. Not because people will notice them, but usually because I put them in unintentionally in the first place.

V.M. wrote: "Dwayne, it's okay, thread jacking is still always better than carjacking. I too initially quoted song lyrics in my main novel., but found the attribution clause too unwieldy.

Here is some more i..."

Thank you, V.M. Although, I had to chuckle that the guy basically repeated himself in regards to self-published authors. We're just little children and need to be told twice, don't we?

Morris wrote: "My characters refer to Star Trek, rock and roll songs, books, even old sea shanties."

I've done all those (especially rock and roll songs) except sea shanties. I think I'll make it a goal to reference a sea shanty in one of my upcoming works.

Fair use generally means that if you are teaching a university class on the interaction of brothers and sisters you can show a clip of Bart and Lisa to demonstrate something and not get sued by 20th century Fox for doing so. It was education, you made no profit directly from the clip, that sort of thing. It sometimes can cover a parody, but that is touchy.

Fair use does not cover quoting song lyrics, poems, movies, tv shows, or anything else because you happen to like it. It certainly doesn't cover that.
while most of the time you can get away with something such as saying 'pepsi', or 'spider-man comic' as it is generally free product placement. Pepsico sure as sugar can tell you to remove the reference, but will often not. If Pepsi is mentioned as causing cancerous tumours in your world and not as a refreshing drink, you can bet your left asscheck that you will be hit with a cease and desist order.

Fair use is a Gray area sometimes, but most often it is best to assume what you are doing is not fair use. is this a book you are selling? Then no, fair use isn't an excuse. You can't quote a song in your book without paying for it, or getting permission. period.

Just be sure to change it enough that you can call it a parody and you'll get away with it (maybe).

I deleted my comment. Something like that had already been said. ;)

You're right. It is a gray area. I think in movies you can play a song up to 15 seconds in the background without permission or paying anything. I researched this a bit, and even went to an intellectual properties lawyer to ask questions. Referencing a character: for instance, my character talking about the fictional character Kahless from Star Trek is okay. Adding Kahless to my story as a character, however is illegal and can get me sued. Any references to trademark names should get recognition in your credits page.

Posting a few lines to a song is okay, as long as you don't post the entire thing. Again, give credit where credit is due.

Keep in mind, publishing a sample of the lyrics and giving credit to the owner of the song/book/poem, is good advertizing for the product being "sampled."

Best regards, Morris

Annie wrote: "Funny enough I was thinking this the other day. I removed a reference to an iPad and replaced with tablet. I've no idea what the rules are. I've read so many books that include song refs and playli..."

In a couple recent someone who plays a violin, there is a link right in the midst of the story to youtube.com videos of someone playing the song on a violin. It is so creative, and I clicked the link, started the video, and went back to reading the story -- I could hear the music being played just like the characters. It was awesome.

Diana wrote: "Annie wrote: "Funny enough I was thinking this the other day. I removed a reference to an iPad and replaced with tablet. I've no idea what the rules are. I've read so many books that include song r..."

Sweet! I love that idea!