Victorians! discussion

For discussion of these chapters

I enjoyed this novel. It was not what I expected, I see more an examination of women's positions than workers, although it is possible to see the links between workers and women being in a position of ultimate powerlessness over their fate and being reliant on the kindness of others for their own happiness.

I read that Caroline was originally intended to die but after the death of Anne, Charlotte Bronte could not bear to kill her character. The biographical suffering that Charlotte Bronte went through when writing 'Shirley' added so much poignancy to the happy ending of the two love marriages.

If that is the case, I am glad that Charlotte changed her mind! It was nice to finally see Caroline's wishes come true. And I loved that they had a double wedding. Caroline's dear friend Mr. Hall married her and Robert, while Helstone, whom Shirley always seemed fond of (why, I don't know) married her and Louis. And their youthful admirers, Henry and Martin, event took part!

Clari wrote: "I enjoyed this novel. It was not what I expected, I see more an examination of women's positions than workers, although it is possible to see the links between workers and women being in a position..."

I enjoyed reading Shirley, too. However, I think the book was indeed written with the “role of women in Victorian society” in mind. The role played by Shirley, Caroline even Mrs. Yorke was not indicative of the role middle-class women played in Victorian times. Women, those who had jobs that were not menial, worked as Governesses, which was very different from the role Mrs. Pryor had in the novel.
I think the author knew what governesses had to endure, and being an excellent observer and writer sort to cast the women in this book into roles she wished for women - she saw women as educated, independent, more equal to the male than society deemed them, less subservient and marrying for love.
In addition, although Shirley wanted a strong man, she did not want a “wimp.” I strongly feel that here, the author wanted to show that women were not looking to usurp the role of men, they just wanted to be recognized as being able to make strong meaningful contribution to society, and to be only “a tad” submissive- Shirley made that very clear to Louis. She also showed the reader the kind of man she did not want, one like Sir Phillip Nunnely who to Shirley lacked that certain confidence and strength of his conviction. (I found it a little amusing that the author sited the Nunnely’s poetry as one of the things Shirley found lacking in Nunnely.)
Shirley also made bold statements when she stood up to her Uncle’s pressure and his somewhat abusive manner towards her and the subject of her marrying Nunely.

I loved the scenes between Shirley and her pushy uncle! She wouldn't buckle under to him, and he really didn't know how to react to an assertive woman, so he just became more and more ridiculous.

Supposedly Shirley was based on Emily Bronte. Obviously, Emily was not a wealthy heiress, but she must have been a very strong, independent personality. If Charlotte changed her mind about killing Caroline off after Anne died, perhaps Caroline had some basis in Anne, who may have been a much gentler personality than Emily. Someone had also mentioned that Malone was based on Charlotte's husband, but I have a difficult time believing that, since he was not at all a pleasant character. It was also interesting how at the end, she just kept hinting that Malone had done something terrible, but wouldn't say what.

Don't read the following unless you have also read Jane Eyre:
(view spoiler)[I thought that it was interesting that Shirley, such a stong character herself, wanted a man who would be her 'master' and dominate her to an extent. I think this is kind of opposite to Jane Eyre, who never wanted Rochester to take care of her, and finally was happy when he needed her to take care of him. I have a very difficult time choosing a favorite between the two novels - I think that overall I prefer Shirley, but that Jane Eyre is a more powerful novel. (hide spoiler)]

Denise wrote: "I loved the scenes between Shirley and her pushy uncle! She wouldn't buckle under to him, and he really didn't know how to react to an assertive woman, so he just became more and more ridiculous.
..."

Denise mentioned that it was said that the character of Malone was based on Charlotte's husband and that it is difficult to fathom as he was portrayed as such a unpleasant person. I don't find it difficult to believe because writers use "poetic license" all the time. Charlotte could have used her husband and could easily have exaggerated some of his faults or used the opposite. In addition, she based Robert on her teacher in Belgium it is said with whom she was infatuated but in the novel Robert was not an angel. However,when reading about him one could definately see that the writer perhaps had intimate knowledge of this kind of personality or had done excellent research!

I enjoyed this novel although as Clari said, it was not what I expected." I was happy with the conclusion although slightly disappointed for whatever reason. I suppose I was looking for more of a telling of the times and although Ms Bronte did do an admirable job of portraying woman and the men they were destined to love, I just felt a bit let down.

In the end, she did tie up everything quite nicely and all things ended happily for all. Did anyone else feel let down or am I just expressing my own mood?

Marialyce wrote: "I enjoyed this novel although as Clari said, it was not what I expected." I was happy with the conclusion although slightly disappointed for whatever reason. I suppose I was looking for more of a t..."

Marialyce..I think some of the pieces written about the novel were very misleading. Many stressed the plight of the factory worker and did not allude to the plight of women. I read from a few sources including (Victorian Literature & Culture by Herbert F. Tucker) mainly and a few other sources which addressed the culture at the time the book was written and learned allot about female writers of the time which included Bronte. The analysis gave an overall picture of the times and touched on what each writer sort to emphasize in their writing. My understanding was that Bronte wrote more often than not about women in Victorian society and touched a little on the issue of the factory worker --I don't think Shirley was an exception; thus, perhaps that is where the disconnect comes-most were expecting perhaps a novel along the line of Elizabeth Gaskell's, Mary Barton and were disappointed when it was not. I am perhaps way off--just thought I would give it a stab.

Thanks, Beve! Sometimes I think that when a reader brings preconceived notions to their reading it diminishes the novel. I guess in my case, I was looking for more of a times piece and less of a character piece. I know what you are saying though. When we expect one thing we are often disappointed by the presentation of something vastly different.

So, now that we are finished, how many would now say that Shirley is their favorite Charlotte Bronte novel? And why, or why not? After I read it for the first time, I was a bit torn over this question. On the one hand, I just enjoyed Shirley the most among the three novels I have read by her (Jane Eyre, Villette, and Shirley - have yet to read The Professor). I found the characters more engaging. On the other hand, I think that overall, Jane Eyre has more power to it, with its melodrama and Gothic undertones. Jane has to endure much more traumatic experiences, again and again, and manages to stay true to herself and triumph in the end. Shirley, to me, is much lighter in tone. So I am still conflicted over which I consider the better novel. Of course, I have read that many consider Villette to be her greatest novel, but personally it is my least favorite of the three.

One thing that I had wanted to bring up at the right time, but couldn't decide when, and that I don't think anybody else has articulated, is that we finally found out why Shirley seemed so interested in Robert. She kept asking Caroline about him, would color when his name was mentioned, etc. Caroline, and we as readers, interpreted this as Shirley being attracted to Robert. However, all along, it was really due to her interest in his brother Louis!

Denise wrote: "...One thing that I had wanted to bring up ... and that I don't think anybody else has articulated, is ... why Shirley seemed so interested in Robert. ...all along, it was really due to her interest in his brother Louis!"

The closest I came was Msg 14 in the Chapters 27 - 32 thread when I speculated an alert and people perceptive Robert might have suspected his brother's (or even Caroline's) interest before he proposed himself.

Shirley was not my most favorite of Charlotte Bronte's works. Personally, Jane Eyre takes the prize in my estimation for the reason you stated, Denise, that being the Gothic element. There is something a bit more sinister in that novel which for me at least, sets it above what we have just completed. I was not fond of her novel Villette and do feel that Shirley was a good deal better. Perhaps it is because I felt her characterizations in Shirley were quite good and pointed in the direction of what one expects in the Victorian men and women we have met.

I'm not sure I have favorite books (well, on my goodreads bookshelves, I do categorize a few as "favorites" that have impacted me deeply or have simply been a lot of fun, but most are non-fiction or long-term memories from parenting or childhood). I am definitely not a fan of Jane Eyre ; the status Mr. Rochester has attained of the desirable, mysterious, dark, wounded male leaves me feeling troubled. Perhaps Rhys's Wide Sargasso Sea impacted me too much, but I think the significance of Rochester's not sharing about Bertha is downplayed and left not confronted by Brontë.

Nonetheless, Jane Eyre may be more tightly written than Shirley . Much as I enjoyed Shirley, including the little nuances, I found myself again and again saying: "Get on with this story, please. Yes, I understand this is Victorian literature, but enough is still enough." I do think that there is evidence Charlotte modified the plot in response to what had happened in her family, particularly the death of Emily. Yet, in terms of pure liking, I prefer Shirley to Jane Eyre, with its two admirable female protagonists and rich supporting cast.

I haven't read Villette , although I too have heard it praised as Charlotte Brontë's finest work. Nor have I read The Professor .

Did anyone else find that last chapter awkward, with all its "wrap-up" vignettes? Right off hand, I can't think of another book so bald-faced about covering all the open bases.

We earlier remarked about wondering why Rose's and Jessie's futures were accounted early in the text. Reading this last chapter, I wondered if they, too, were once here, and Brontë herself saw the chapter as overloaded, so moved their stories out. But, I'm no literary detective, so I'll leave that as conjecture.

(I finally actually finished the book, down to the last page, some hour of the past almost sleepless night as I struggle with my second sinus cold of the season. Bah, humbug! When the snow gets cleared, will need to resupply the antihistamines -- first year I recall not having some to throw out two or three years later. In the meantime, ginger, lemon, and honey tea and Kleenex.)

Feel better, Lily. My whole family has been sick with sinus infections. It's awful.

Marialyce wrote: "Feel better, Lily. My whole family has been sick with sinus infections. It's awful."

Thank you, Marialyce. Hope your family, too, is soon rid of this nonsense.

Marialyce wrote: "Feel better, Lily. My whole family has been sick with sinus infections. It's awful."

So sorry to hear Marialyce, feel better and take care of yourself.

Thank you, Beve!

Marialyce wrote: "I enjoyed this novel although as Clari said, it was not what I expected." I was happy with the conclusion although slightly disappointed for whatever reason. I suppose I was looking for more of a t..."

I definitely felt let down at the end. After 36 chapters of building up the big question of whether or not Caroline and Robert would end up together and what Shirley was going to do with her life, I think the one chapter summary, which did not get into any detail at all, merely describing the choices each character made, left a lot to be desired. I have found a lot of Victorian books to be like this. 90% of the text is very rich and builds up to a climax, but then the author tells the ending in just a couple of sentences, just saying what happened rather than taking you through the scenes. Dickens did this in some of his later works. I loved Great Expectations, but think it ended to abruptly. Maybe in these epic volumes, they just get tired of writing.

Denise wrote: "So, now that we are finished, how many would now say that Shirley is their favorite Charlotte Bronte novel? And why, or why not?"

I have only read two, but I think I liked Jane Eyre better. This one seemed too wordy. I didn't see the significance in spending 2-3 chapters on the church's social gathering. She spent a lot of time introducing us to the three curates who never ended up being important to the overall story. We never get their thoughts, intentions, or motives, but she spent a lot of time trying to make them important. I didn't get this. I think the setting what with the social upheaval and the background of the Napoleonic Wars that were going on at the time helped make this novel more interesting. I do think she captured the effects that these major historical events would have had on the characters lives in a realistic fashion. For instance, Robert was having a problem with too much supply and too little demand because of what we would nowadays call sanctions due to the war. This dilemma made the story more believable because it is exactly the kind of problems it would pose for people in those days. It helped, but I still think that Shirley falls short of every Bronte work I have read, including the Tenant of Wildfell Hall, and Wuthering Heights. I know Charlotte was the most popular but I like her sisters' writings much better than hers.

Lily wrote: I found myself again and again saying: "Get on with this story, please. Yes, I understand this is Victorian literature, but enough is still enough."

I felt this way many times throughout this book. I like long books. I feel the more time you spend "with" the characters, the more you can identify with them and grow to love or loathe them. Notwithstanding, this book was too long for its own good. She spent too much time with vague descriptions of the minor characters' personalities. Where I was left thinking: "What does that mean?" "How would a person who is thus described act or talk?" I would that she had either left that non-important character's description out, or let the reader make those observations for himself or herself based on that characters actions and discourse. It was as if she had a basis in mind for that character, but knew that he or she would not play a recurring role, at least not to the extent that the reader could figure this out on his own. I liked this book. I just found that some parts were not my cup of tea.

Lily wrote: "Did anyone else find that last chapter awkward, with all its "wrap-up" vignettes? Right off hand, I can't think of another book so bald-faced about covering all the open bases.

We earlier remarke..."

I too finished this book while getting over my second cold of the week. Yes. The last chapter was extremely hurried and very awkward. She does not describe the weddings or the after math. She simply says that these two couples got married and pretty much left it at that. I think she skipped a lot. This was not at all in keeping with the style of the rest of the book. Previously, there was always well described scenes and dialogue to demonstrate what happened. Here, it was more like reading about the weddings in a newspaper clipping. It is almost as if someone else wrote the final chapter of an unfinished novel.

Jonathan, thanks for your thoughts on the novel. I don't know whether you read the background thread or my latest post on that, but I think that a lot of the inconsistencies between the beginning and end of the novel are probably due to the changes in Charlotte's life, losing her sisters and brother within a short period of time when she was in the middle of writing this novel. I also wonder whether all the illnesses, that I kind of complained about earlier, were a result of that, too. Really, every one of the four main characters was sick, or thought they were sick! It was getting a bit much for me! But maybe she just had illness on the brain.

I do find that a lot of 19th-century novels just end with the wedding (think Jane Austen!). As readers, we have gotten to know the characters and would like to see how they do once they're married, especially if there have been problems on the way to that marriage - does getting married just spontaneously solve everything? But I guess that in those days, for the writer, the marriage is the goal, and once achieved, the story is over.

I agree with you that Emily's novel Wuthering Heights is far superior to anything that Charlotte wrote (of course, just IMHO; I know there are others who feel differently). However, I do prefer Charlotte's writing in general to Anne's. I think that The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is an excellent novel, and deserves a place next to Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights in being well-known. But I still prefer Jane Eyre and Shirley, and I really don't care that much for Agnes Grey (or Charlotte's Villette).

I hope you're over your cold and feeling better!

Yes, Jonathan, thank you for posting and know that I, too agree with your sentiment about this novel. I, like Denise, did so enjoy and find much wonderful writing in The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. Wuthering Heights is my most favorite of all of the Victorian novels, and Jane Eyre is a close second.

It never ceases to amaze me how this group of very young girls were able to produce such quality literature considering their sheltered lives, but they knew so very well the extent of human nature and of course even better human frailties.

Feel better soon!

Yeah, I have been impressed with all of them so far. I think Wuthering Heights is my favorite from that family. It was just more gripping than the others. Although, the Tenant had a great ending. She did pull out a few last second twists and turns which I really enjoyed.