A Good Thriller discussion

Susan, re: the sex pots Bond got to romance: the best Bond girl names were Pussy Galore (Connery's Bond) and the Thai twins Fuk Yu and Fuk Mi (Roger Moore).

I'm a fan of Daniel Craig as well, and think he is more true to the literary Bond character than the previous actors who have starred in the Bond films. Don't get me wrong, I found Connery, Moore, etc entertaining (even though it got unbelievable at times) and enjoyed those films for what they were, but I have really enjoyed watching Craig.

Reading Flemming's first book, Casino Royale, and comparing it to the movie, I think Craig did a great job. In the book, Bond is rough around the edges, not so charming, more of a tough guy, and makes mistakes, but he does it in style while in Monte Carlo. Craig has a similar persona about him in the movies, which makes things interesting.

JR wrote: "I'm a fan of Daniel Craig as well, and think he is more true to the literary Bond character than the previous actors who have starred in the Bond films. Don't get me wrong, I found Connery, Moore, ..."

I must say I do agree :)

Don't forget that Mr. Bigglesworth was a parody of Blofeld's cat.

JR wrote: "I'm a fan of Daniel Craig as well, and think he is more true to the literary Bond character than the previous actors who have starred in the Bond films. Don't get me wrong, I found Connery, Moore, ..."

I totally agree Paul and JR!

'Trigger Mortis’ is on its way, coinciding with Fleming’s 107th birthday, and takes place two weeks after the events of 'Goldfinger’. Anyone got it on their reading list?

https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/post/1265...

I really liked David-Oyelowo in Spooks (MI5) that I can say.

Off topic, but I'm going to see Girl with a Suitcase at Harvard Film Archives tomorrow night. One of Claudia Cardinale's early films. http://hcl.harvard.edu/hfa/films/2015...

Looks classy Susan

Now here is a thought...
“Having your book turned into a movie is like seeing your oxen turned into bouillon cubes”
― John le Carré

Back on LeCarre. my favorite was A Perfect Spy, which was his most autobiographical, given the con man dad. Also a nice BBC mini series adaptation. A bit hard to find but worth the effort.

Paul wrote: "'Trigger Mortis’ is on its way, coinciding with Fleming’s 107th birthday, and takes place two weeks after the events of 'Goldfinger’. Anyone got it on their reading list?

https://uk.movies.yahoo..."

Yeah. Plot sounds miles more interesting that the previous continuation novel which was extremely lukewarm. SOLO was too small scale and mundane. Trigger Mortis on the other hand seems to be large scale Fleming.

A handy classification guide to the types of spy fiction. The one pioneered by Ian Fleming, the one pioneered by David Cornwell and the ones in between:

Martini Flavored (shaken, not stirred) Spy Fiction is what you might call the Tuxedo Approach. This involves glamorous parties, fast cars, hot women, cool gadgets, brutal fights involving guns and fists and big explosions (swap those adjectives around as you wish). Despite the glamor, spying is not for the faint heart and is fraught with danger and the stakes are massive. A Death Trap is par for the course. The main example here is of course James Bond (the movies in particular). This is the Hotter and Sexier spy game, with Spy Catsuits and Sex Face Turns by the dozen. The Tuxedo Approach as a whole is more glamorized and idealistic with clearly defined "good guys" and "bad guys", they often have a bit of an "action movie" feel.

Stale Beer Flavored Spy Fiction could also be called the Trenchcoat Approach. "More realistic," pre-dating the other approach but seeing a resurgence as a deconstruction of it, this is the more gritty style of espionage. It involves dead-drops, brush-pasts, blackmail and morally iffy things. Spying is stressful and you may end up an alcoholic or worse. This is the approach taken by Len Deighton and the Bourne series (the books and films alike), John le Carré, and by Callan, the classic counterpoint to James Bond. This is the Darker and Edgier spy game. Ironically, the original James Bond novels are like this and both Timothy Dalton and Daniel Craig played the character this way. The Stale Beer approach as a whole is more gritty and morally ambiguous, spying reflects power politics between whichever nations or organizations are involved and other nations and people are caught in the crossfire.
In other words, the Tuxedo Approach would have a Soviet defector be a gorgeous, aloof Slavic beauty with whom the hero will probably elope at some point; the Stale Beer Approach would have a Soviet defector be a shaken, morally gray individual looking probably more for personal profit than for any virtues of right or wrong.

Stale Beer Served in a Martini Glass Spy Fiction is the gritty style of espionage taking place in glamorous international or domestic locations, such as Tokyo, Italy, Spain, Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Hawaii, etc. I Spy and the Daniel Craig James Bond films exemplify this trope.
Bathtub Gin Flavored Spy Fiction applies to civilians drawn knowingly or unwittingly into the world of espionage that is either "martini flavored," "stale beer flavored," or a "dirty martini." They may have or not have transferable skills to help them survive, and they may or may not become realized agents at some point. Examples include: Mrs. Peel, The Avengers (in the opening voiceover intro, she is introduced as a "talented amateur"), Chuck, Chuck; Amanda King, Scarecrow and Mrs. King; the show Masquerade (where civilians with special occupational or avocational expertise are drafted to help the government on one-off missions; and Tom Hank's character in The Man With One Red Shoe. Alfred Hitchcock also exemplified this to a tee in his earlier films, especially in such stories as North By Northwest, The Man Who Knew Too Much, and The 39 Steps.

Bleach and Ammonia Flavored A common variant of this genre full of Government Conspiracy plots in which Anyone Can Die, often filled with disposable henchmen - a situation in which even the protagonist may even find himself/herself. Naturally Darker and Edgier than other versions of this genre. Examples include films such as Safe House and Three Days of the Condor.

Casino Royale. Some literary critics have said it's the only time when Fleming tried moral ambiguity. Specifically with Vesper's story. She has a pretty legit reason for screwing over the SIS and Bond.
Hell, I suppose it and the 2006 film can be seen as a classic tragedy. About how an arrogant man out of his depth gets humbled big time when his chance a true love blows up in his face and how he survives by embracing his job.

Samuel wrote: "A handy classification guide to the types of spy fiction. The one pioneered by Ian Fleming, the one pioneered by David Cornwell and the ones in between:

Martini Flavored (shaken, not stirred) Spy ..."

Wow Samuel. What can one say? What a round of drinks! Thoroughly enjoyable... Mine's a few of each. Bring on the hangover :)

Patrick wrote: "Back on LeCarre. my favorite was A Perfect Spy, which was his most autobiographical, given the con man dad. Also a nice BBC mini series adaptation. A bit hard to find but worth the effort."

The book I haven't come to yet. The TV series I tried, but it opens in such a hard place for the boy. I guess I should have stayed with it but didn't.

worth a try. It shows you the recipe for how to create a spy. a perfect spy. a liar.

Paul wrote: "Samuel wrote: "A handy classification guide to the types of spy fiction. The one pioneered by Ian Fleming, the one pioneered by David Cornwell and the ones in between:

Martini Flavored (shaken, n..."

Cheers ;)

I'm a fan of Brosnan and Craig. Pierce was a good actor but hamstrung by extremely uneven material which didn't give him enough opportunities to showcase his talent (the opportunities that did come however were fantastic pieces of acting like in TWINE where he shoots Mrs King with the M1911A1)
Craig however got both. He's got the build and acting ability along with great material (Quantum Of Solace not included) which allows him to showcase his talent.

For me, I prefer the paramilitary side of the business (Bond) mixed with John LeCarre's morality. Balances the fun gunfights with much more interesting moral gray situations than a Fleming black and white morality situation

I love John le Carre and I'm still working my way through his novels. It's like I want to go slow, one book at a time, and just savor the characters and his writing, the questions he raises, his unique perspective on espionage. My favorite novel and movie by far to date is The Constant Gardener. Heart-wrenching. I loved Alec Guinness' portrayal of George Smiley.

Has anyone read Stella Rimington's novels? She was the head of either MI5 or MI6 (can't recall) and has also written a memoir about her experiences in that job.

C.C. wrote: "I love John le Carre and I'm still working my way through his novels. It's like I want to go slow, one book at a time, and just savor the characters and his writing, the questions he raises, his un..."

"5". She was the first female director general.

Paul wrote: "Now here is a thought...
“Having your book turned into a movie is like seeing your oxen turned into bouillon cubes”
― John le Carré"

Whoa! What a comment! Sounds like he didn't care for them much. Neither did Elmore Leonard. But both of them put the $$$ in their bank accounts. And you know what? If someone wanted to make a film based upon one of my books?? I would GRAB it!

Samuel wrote: "A handy classification guide to the types of spy fiction. The one pioneered by Ian Fleming, the one pioneered by David Cornwell and the ones in between:

Martini Flavored (shaken, not stirred) Spy ..."

Samuel, I love your analysis. Spot on!

Susan wrote: "Paul wrote: "Now here is a thought...
“Having your book turned into a movie is like seeing your oxen turned into bouillon cubes”
― John le Carré"

Whoa! What a comment! Sounds like he didn't care..."

Ever thought of doing The Hot Seat Susan?
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Paul wrote: "Susan wrote: "Paul wrote: "Now here is a thought...
“Having your book turned into a movie is like seeing your oxen turned into bouillon cubes”
― John le Carré"

Whoa! What a comment! Sounds like ..."

That looks like fun. I'd be happy to get on The Hot Seat. How do I do so?

A little while back, I read Le Carre’s ‘The Honourable Schoolboy’. Just kept stumbling upon fine ‘writerly’ sentences like these. Didn’t review it in the end, but did post things as I went along…

'There were no street lamps, no stars. The moon had vanished and the squeak of his crepe soles ran with him like an unwanted, unseen companion.'

'Ricardo squeezed his nose as if it were smarting with seawater.'

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

JR wrote: "I'm a fan of Daniel Craig as well, and think he is more true to the literary Bond character than the previous actors who have starred in the Bond films. Don't get me wrong, I found Connery, Moore, ..."

JR, Do feel you can post your Fleming and Le Carre book reviews in here:)

Susan,

have placed a message on your home page asking if you would do our " Hot Seat" thread?

I am happy with Daniel Craig, a good actor and Casino Royal was one of the best Bond films.

But hard to compare all the different Bonds

PS Connery's birthday today 85 years old.

Susan/Sean: What do you two think of THIS: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/25/... ? Others are, of course, welcome to discuss this.

Personally, I think the idea of a gay 007 very damned interesting.

Sean wrote: "I am happy with Daniel Craig, a good actor and Casino Royal was one of the best Bond films.

But hard to compare all the different Bonds

PS Connery's birthday today 85 years old."

Happy BD Sean!! BTW. he was great in The Untouchables!

A gay 007? Might be interesting for some. Alas, not for me.

But I could go for a BLACK 007. Lawrence Fishburn? or maybe Mahershala Ali, who plays Remy on House of Cards. He has a fabulous voice. Nice bod, too. :)

Check him out here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0991810/

Or a trans Bond?

I guess there are those who feel the character should move with the ‘zeitgeist’, and the films have certainly tried to do that. If it were to enhance the art of it, rather than raise a cheer from this or that section of society, then that’s one thing. I’ve always enjoyed 007 as Fleming portrayed him in his era, so personally speaking, I prefer my Bond shaken but not stirred…

Paul wrote: "I guess there are those who feel the character should move with the ‘zeitgeist’, and the films have certainly tried to do that. If it were to enhance the art of it, rather than raise a cheer from t..."

I love your last line. Excellent! Lol!

Interesting point, Paul.

Paul wrote: "



British Intelligence: two authors, Ian Fleming and John le Carré, have brought us a wealth of espionage thriller entertainment through novels and their film adaptations.

From Fleming’s ‘C..."

We've had Greene, Cornwell and Maugham.
And now we have this guy. Worked as an asset for the SIS for two decades. Doing odd tasks, gathering information for an intelligence officer. His payment?
They gave him information for his books and allowed him to become the king of British thriller fiction. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment...

Paul wrote: "I guess there are those who feel the character should move with the ‘zeitgeist’, and the films have certainly tried to do that. If it were to enhance the art of it, rather than raise a cheer from t..."

I totally agree with you

What is it with British writers and the SIS?
Many of them, such as Graham Greene, Somerset Maugham and Frederick Forsyth served in the service at various periods. Greene worked as an intelligence officer during the second world war in Africa, Maugham ran an ultimately unsuccessful op in Revolutionary Russia and Forsyth acted as an asset while on research trips as a journalist and writer.
Do writers make decent intelligence gatherers?

I suppose its the skills. Cultivating sources, selecting the relevant pieces of intel, the job of an intelligence officer and a writer have quite a few similarities.

Not to mention journalists. They, spies and authors use information, but for different purposes.

Samuel wrote: "Not to mention journalists. They, spies and authors use information, but for different purposes."

True, but keep in mind, journalists (of which my father was one) are prime targets in the Middle East and elsewhere ... even if they're not spying, just doing their jobs.

Yeah. Journalism has gradually lost its appeal as a cover identity for intelligence officers in the Post-9/11 world.

I'm currently reading A Gathering of Spies and wildly enjoying it. Set in 1943 ... female German killer spy has been in the US for 10 years ... finds out about The Bomb ...

Samuel, interesting about Frederick Forsyth. I just finished reading his ‘The Day of The Jackal’ again, chosen for me to read on the PIFM thread of this group. Often wondered what enriched Freddy’s fiction with such insight… he does his research so thoroughly. Like you say ‘journalistic cover’ has been a known mode of operation for the field agent; just like Jerry Westerby in Le Carre’s ‘The Honourable Schoolboy’. So enjoyed where that began in the Foreign Correspondents’ Club in Hong Kong... Working abroad as a reporter, I’ve found myself subject to a little probing from ‘Services’ (using those who worked close with me) to discover whether I might be doing a little more than carrying a Press Card. I guess some of the skills do cross over, but guts, guile and nerve would be needed in generous measure on top! The idea of being a ‘prime target’, unwittingly, Susan was something I tackled in one of my works...

And which book might that be, Paul?

Paul wrote: "Samuel, interesting about Frederick Forsyth. I just finished reading his ‘The Day of The Jackal’ again, chosen for me to read on the PIFM thread of this group. Often wondered what enriched Freddy’s..."

Well, seems Forsyth had that a lot of guts and nerve in spades. He avoided getting blown to smithereens by a Nigerian airforce jet doing a bombing run during his legendary Biafra tenure and (while doing a job for his SIS handlers) once outran the Communist Czech secret police when they attempted to arrest him. He'll be elaborating in his autobiography. Should make for fun reading.

Also, I suppose another defining element for assets, is being willing to put your ass on the line to obtain that one extra piece of intel even when faced with potentially life ending repercussions.

Susan wrote: "And which book might that be, Paul?"

This one Susan, ‘The Silencer’: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

The protagonist becomes a prime target for two reasons: information others fear he might make public, and because of a place he has visited...

Samuel wrote: "Paul wrote: "Samuel, interesting about Frederick Forsyth. I just finished reading his ‘The Day of The Jackal’ again, chosen for me to read on the PIFM thread of this group. Often wondered what enri..."

I'd like to read that.