Support for Indie Authors discussion

My problem is that I spend too little time on one scene. Many of my scenes have, maybe, 200 words, and that's not really much. I feel that I'm not exploring depths that should be explored in scenes.

Does anyone else have this problem? And if so, how do you fix this?

When I need to expand on a scene, I find it helps if I escape scene mode, with its encumbrances of setting and dialogue etc., and temporarily slip into scenario/narrative mode. Also sometimes finding stronger nouns and verbs allows me to see new scene possibilities. Hope this helps. Best.

Basically you have to immerse yourself in the scene you're writing, look around, take note of what may be important to know, the actions taking place, and then tell the reader about it. Do not pad a scene just to make it longer; the reader will know. If you can't put it all into the first draft because you're afraid you'll lose the thread, you can flesh it all out later when you go back over the next few drafts.

A scene can also be too short if you are just narrating it. Replacing some telling with a little bit of showing will give it more life and more substance.

(Yeah, I know, the dreaded 'show don't tell' approach.)

Yet, it's true. Take a blurb. You will rarely see the show part of it because we want it short and concise, but it would be boring if the whole book would be written that way (and the shortest book in history). :P

I never think of scenes. In my books, things happen, then something else happens, then something else. Keep things moving.

I guess I do have scenes, but it has never occurred to me to wonder about length - and if I did, I'd probably try to shorten them. 'Number of words' is not a valid test for quality in writing, unless of course, you're writing a school essay or a newspaper article.

So - I just wouldn't worry about it, so long as you're saying what has to be said, or rather, your characters are saying what they need to say. Nobody likes long descriptions, added for the sake of heft, that could be excised without losing a thing.

I have to agree with Chris. As long as there is good pacing and flow, wordcount doesn't matter. Besides, you can always go back in the editing phase and expand upon vague ideas or cut out the unnecessary.

Rob wrote: "G.G. wrote: "A scene can also be too short if you are just narrating it. Replacing some telling with a little bit of showing will give it more life and more substance.

(Yeah, I know, the dreaded '..."

Wait a minute. Describing everything in a room in details is NOT showing. It's exactly what you say it is. I call it adding to word count.


What I'm saying is while sometimes it's perfectly fine to say the protagonist is scared, other times it's also nice to hear about what it does to her (or him) instead of just reading the words she was scared.

I understand that strength isn't in number of words, but it sure relies on their quality.

Edited: darn tablet...

All scenes can be improved and expanded by adding a sarcastic talking animal who who makes a dry commentary on the events in the scene. Perhaps a badger or an opossum. Eagles are also good. Maybe a porcupine at a stretch. But definitely no cats. Feline commentary tends to resort to too many graphic sexual insults and racial slurs, in my experience.

Paul wrote: "All scenes can be improved and expanded by adding a sarcastic talking animal who who makes a dry commentary on the events in the scene. Perhaps a badger or an opossum. Eagles are also good. Maybe a..."

One of my favorites is a forgotten god who takes the shape of a cigar chomping Raccoon in 'Divine Misfortune." Never underestimate the value of a cynical, quip-machine animal sidekick.

Mark wrote: "My problem is that I spend too little time on one scene. Many of my scenes have, maybe, 200 words, and that's not really much. I feel that I'm not exploring depths that should be explored in scenes..."
Perhaps you could try to go back to some scenes later - either in a few weeks or even after you have finished the first draft of your book. Often it helps a lot to look at a scene for a second, third, or tenth time. Then you might be more likely to see the scene in depth because you will not be thinking of the next segment.

And don't forget the dialogue.

Also, where did you come up with the word count having to be 200 words, Mark?

Mark wrote: "My problem is that I spend too little time on one scene. Many of my scenes have, maybe, 200 words, and that's not really much. I feel that I'm not exploring depths that should be explored in scenes.

Does anyone else have this problem? And if so, how do you fix this?"

I would need to see a sample of your work before I could agree if there is a problem or not. There's no hard, fast rule for how long a scene must be. Has someone told you your scenes are too short? What are you basing this idea on? Have you been told you need more depth?

I guess if I felt this way, during the editing / rewriting process, I would read the scene slowly and look for places to add to it. Look for places where a little more description would help the story, places where you could do more to flesh out the character... just anything to add to the word count - as long as it is actually enhancing the story. And that is the pitfall you need to watch. Don't drag the scenes out with anything unnecessary. I'd rather read a book with short, well written scenes than one with long scenes that drag on and on without going anywhere.

Mark wrote: "My problem is that I spend too little time on one scene. Many of my scenes have, maybe, 200 words, and that's not really much. I feel that I'm not exploring depths that should be explored in scenes..."

Before I comment further, why do you think you are spending too little time on a scene? What do you think is missing (these depths, you mention)? Why do you think it's missing and why didn't you include it in the first place?

Echoing Dwayne’s comment above, is this an external opinion or your own? (External might include somebody's "how to write" advice that you've taken to heart.)

There's no "right" way to write. There is only saying what you want to say, in the best way you can say it. If you are willing to shed more light on the heart of your dissatisfaction, I could try to offer a more concrete thought, for whatever it’s worth.

It's an interesting question, Mark, and it's hard to answer without a sample, but if you feel that it's too short, then maybe it is. If you feel that you should feel that it's too short, maybe you're focusing on the wrong thing? If it irks you, you could put several of these 200 words scenes together and build a bridge between them? Sometimes that can help with both creating a richer scene as well as a longer one.

Chris wrote: "I never think of scenes. In my books, things happen, then something else happens, then something else. Keep things moving."

Exactly. A scene should be just as long as it needs to be to accomplish what it needs to accomplish. If you can do what is needed in fifty words, do it. If it takes 5,000, do it.

Paul wrote: "All scenes can be improved and expanded by adding a sarcastic talking animal who who makes a dry commentary on the events in the scene. Perhaps a badger or an opossum. Eagles are also good. Maybe a..."

LOL. And dogs just say, "squirrel!!"

I like what was mentioned above by G.G. Using the example of being scarred, then you can mention heart pounding, hands sweating, looking all around for what caused the "bump in the night."

I like to get a sense of what the character is feeling physically, as well as emotionally. Of course, I read a lot of romance and erotica.

Mark wrote: "My problem is that I spend too little time on one scene. Many of my scenes have, maybe, 200 words, and that's not really much. I feel that I'm not exploring depths that should be explored in scenes..."

Yes I know this problem. I have now written four novels. and they all start off at somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 words in the first draft. I don't intend them to, it would more covenient if they would come at around 80-90,000 words, but that's just the way I write I guess.

What do I do about it? Well, a number of things. Writing a 10,000 word short story version of the idea before I start the first draft, a kind of "cartoon" for the final "painting", capitalizes on my tendency to brevity. At that length it's much easier to see where I need events that join one segment to the next, where I need to introduced new characters to flesh of the world.

Of course, at 10,000 words, or even in the 50,000 word first draft, I'm racing through the story. There's a lot of filling in to do, a lot of converting telling into showing. Spending a lot of time showing in your first draft will just get you lost. Telling works a lot better for the first draft.

But maybe you don't have a problem. You didn't say how long the overall work was. There's nothing necessarily wrong with 200 word scenes. That maybe just your style. Of course, if you have 100 scenes that would make your book 20,000 words long, and that would be a problem, because it's not a commercial length.

Neil wrote: "Of course, if you have 100 scenes that would make your book 20,000 words long, and that would be a problem, because it's not a commercial length."

Nah. That's no problem. Just call it a novella.

Neil wrote: "Mark wrote: "My problem is that I spend too little time on one scene. Many of my scenes have, maybe, 200 words, and that's not really much. I feel that I'm not exploring depths that should be explo..."

You know, I forget who said it, but there's an author who said, "Less is more, cut out the boring stuff." If your story "Feels" right, it probably is. Even looking at Everyone Dies At The End, I intended for it to be twice as long when I started, but it just felt right the length it is. And I've had several reviewers say that the ending would have been harder to swallow if I'd gone with my original intention. And some of the best books I've ever read were novellas. Hell, Shawshank Redemption was a novella. (First thing I read by Mr. King, and still my favorite.)

I would suggest reading a few of your scenes out loud to someone you know well enough to meet for coffee, but not REAL well. See how they react, If they have a lot of questions about "How did we get from A to B?" you're not giving enough information, and that's a common failing. I certainly do it. All the backstory is in my head, and when a reader says, "But that's not there!" I'm always surprised. If stuff like that doesn't happen when you read to someone, then that's just the way you write. Run with it!

If I can offer a couple of video links...
Jim Butcher, author of The Dresden Files, talks about building your story as an alternating sequence of scenes (action sequences) and sequels (where we get characters' reactions to what just happened). At the end of the sequel, the character makes a decision and that leads into the next scene. I've got an article about this with links to the videos on youtube on my blog: http://www.dispatchesfromwonderland.c...

I don't follow this advice all the time, but it may help you think about what's going on in your scenes and draw your attention to things you want your readers to know that you might not have considered.