Support for Indie Authors discussion

I've seen an uptrend of authors writing in the first person. From what I have heard it seems that a well put together1st person narrative is more difficult than the same story from a 3rd person POV.
Two questions:
Should there be a pointed reason for writing in 1st person or is it just because the author 'feels'' the story in that POV?
If 1st person is more difficult to nail on the head, should new writers focus on being able to produce a good manuscript in 3rd person before moving on to 1st?

My 2-cents:
An author should figure out what they want to say, and then pick the POV that is best suited to saying it. Writing well is not easy, and differing POVs present different challenges. I don't think one is inherently more difficult than another. What can make it difficult is picking a POV for reasons other than the needs of the story (like the feeling a certain POV is more marketable or trendy).

Regarding the second question: Personally, I don't think so. It sounds like asking for trouble to me.

I'd like to throw something in here. The 1st person POV provides a sense of immediacy, but sometimes that tension is inappropriate. For a fast-paced action story it usually works well, but otherwise it can be tiring--not tiresome, tiring. I tend to write in past tense and USE 1st person present tense to emphasize particularly emotionally strong passages...

I actually think first person is way easier than third and for that matter, a little more enjoyable as it is a bit like acting or role playing. As far as why, I can only speak from my own experience:

It all depends on the story. I had one book that I stopped writing about 20k words in and changed from third to first because I felt it was a better fit. I have six chapters of a book shelved right now that are in first that I'm thinking of switching to third just so I can have another character reveal a critical error without being in the presence of the lead. I have books with multiple first person perspectives and one where I mix up the POV for each of the scenes within the narrative.

I really can't give a technical answer as to why I chose the POVs I did because I don't have one. I just let thw stories go where they felt most natural to me.

Jim wrote: "I'd like to throw something in here. The 1st person POV provides a sense of immediacy, but sometimes that tension is inappropriate..."

I agree. First person also tends to depend more on having a familiar context. And as you point out, it's not a binary choice: mixing the two (1st and 3rd) is often quite effective.

Since present tense was brought up, I'll note that this is *very* difficult to pull off without sounding dry, stilted, and awkward. Often, authors go for the 'I am doing' instead of 'I do this' which is what makes reading difficult. A certain bestselling erotica comes to mind as an example of where first person present is awkwardly written.

Christina wrote: "Since present tense was brought up, I'll note that this is *very* difficult to pull off without sounding dry, stilted, and awkward..."

For me personally, I can stand short passages of present tense. (We've done that once in our books, but it wasn't 1st-person, present tense.) But if an author keeps at it, I won't read it. It seems unnecessary and affected to me, but that's merely my taste.

It is encouraging to hear that 1st person is not as difficult to pull off as some make it out to be. I do agree that it makes the storytelling much more personal. How do you believe the vocabulary and how you tell the story should change in contrast to a 3rd person POV?

And yes, I agree that present tense is tough. I've beta read present tense stories which are a train wreck of mixed verb tenses and passive/active voice.

So I'm answering this question on Goodreads, right? It's somebody asking about first person - y'know, whether it's worth writing in it or whatever - and I'm thinking: "how should I know? You do what the story wants, right?".

He read the question on Goodreads. A user was asking about the use of first person. Was it a worthwhile writing device? "How should I know?" he thought. "You do what the story wants, right?"

You look at the question. You read it. You mull it over in your mind. "Why write in first person?". You try to reach a conclusion, but it seems impossible. Surely you must write what the story requires and nothing more?

I read the question, I answer it. It's what I do. I answer the questions. On Goodreads. First person. Tenses. Conundrums. I don't even know what I'm writing anymore. I try to make a point, but it seems laboured. I don't think I'm making myself clear. I guess there are a million ways to tell the same story and only the person telling it can decide which one is right. I click "post".

Lol. Well done.

Karlie wrote: "How do you believe the vocabulary and how you tell the story should change in contrast to a 3rd person POV?..."

Given there are no rules in writing, my subjective opinion is that 1st-person uses the idiomatic vocabulary of the narrator (the MC), and the author can’t use the omniscient view to explain things and provide background detail. That comes through the narrator’s POV and is limited to what they know. Some authors use multiple 1st-person POV at present different perspective, in effect putting the reader to the role of the “omniscient” observer. (This is obviously more complex and thus more demanding.)

In 3rd person POV, vocabulary is one way of conveying a sense of the setting (the place and time), outside of the dialog (internal and spoken), and suits it, more than the characters within it. The author has more tools and techniques available to tell the story.

Occasionally, an author will mix what is almost a 1st-person account with a 3rd-person narrative style, interjecting what sounds like dialog but isn’t. And occasionally, the omniscient narrator in a story told in 3rd person can step into the story as the “chorus” and address the reader directly as “you”. Techniques that mess with the POV like this can be fun but run the risk of being distracting.

In some ways first person is easier but in other ways it's harder. The easy part is that the reader gets the story through the eyes of the character, not distanced and removed by a third person narration. It's much easier to share emotions and thoughts that way.

The hard part is that when writing in first person it's really easy to lean on it too much and start telling instead of showing. I've always felt that writing in first person requires more discipline; it's a more powerful tool.

I don't have any hard and fast rules for when a particular PoV is appropriate. It's just how the story flows, I guess.

Owen wrote: "Techniques that mess with the POV like this can be fun but run the risk of being distracting"

I've read authors that toy with the mechanics of stories quite effectively. They come off as extremely skilled and inventive. I've read other authors that try to do the same thing but don't carry it off well and it just makes their work unreadable to me. It's a huge risk to take as a writer.

Back when I was in school many years ago, I had a friend workshop a story that was entirely second person. She put a lot of work into it and it felt natural and flowed well. We talked about it later and she said that she knew she could make it work for about 20 pages of story and then it would just become painful to read.

J.D. wrote: "Back when I was in school many years ago, I had a friend workshop a story that was entirely second person. She put a lot of work into it and it felt natural and flowed well. We talked about it later and she said that she knew she could make it work for about 20 pages of story and then it would just become painful to read."

Tom Robbins pulled it off for 400 pages:
http://www.amazon.com/Half-Asleep-Fro...

Also, I recently read Undead Rising: Decide Your Destiny which of course uses 2nd person because it is a gamebook. She did a great job with keeping it moving enough that it nevwr became anmoying.

J.D. wrote: "It's a huge risk to take as a writer..."

I completely agree. But I also think everything we do as writers is a huge risk.

I tend to agree with your friend about 2nd-person. I once did that same thing as an exercise. It was maybe 6 - 8 pages. (How well it worked is hard to say, but it's the only thing I ever had published until I did it myself.)

I had a lot of trouble choosing between first and third for my current WIP, and this article helped a lot:

http://www.plottopunctuation.com/blog...

First person is best suited for times when you want to limit the information given to the reader. Because the narrator in first person POV is not omniscient, the reader is restricted to what they know and experience.

This is good for hiding something from the reader, ready to be sprung on them when the time is right.

It is also good for subversive tricks like the old unreliable narrator where the POV character is lying through their teeth while telling the tale. You then get to spring the "everything I just told you is wrong" idea on the unsuspecting reader.

However...if it's not consciously used for these purposes, then by the same token, you are restricted to only being able to show the reader what the narrator knows. You can't jump to something going on elsewhere that the narrator doesn't know about. Unless, of course, you're willing to abandon the first person POV for these sections, or switch to a different first person POV...both of which some readers will find objectionable.

Therefore, it makes it more difficult sometimes to build tension. The reader can't know that behind the next door a deadly trap has been laid for the narrator. You can't easily set up the "Something spooky's about to happen...but the main character doesn't know. Why can't she hear the spooky music cues? The idiot...WATCH OUT!" I mean, if it's in the present tense, then the jump scare has to be sprung on the narrator and reader at the same time. And if it's past tense, then the narrator already knows the jump scare is about to happen...after all, she's the one telling the story...so it kind of defeats any tension because everyone involved knows what's about to happen. And since the narrator is telling you the story now, she must have made it past the difficult bits OK.

Personally, I enjoy first person when it's done right (Use of Weapons for example). But, in the wrong hands, for the wrong reason, or if it's used for no particular reason at all, then it can be one of the most annoying POVs. It can be dull, self-satisfied, and self-conscious. It can feel like the author is trying to constantly draw attention to how clever they are.

I've not used it myself in any published works, but have a few stories in the works where it might be employed.

My advice is to use it cautiously and with purpose.

Micah wrote: "And if it's past tense, then the narrator already knows the jump scare is about to happen...after all, she's the one telling the story...so it kind of defeats any tension because everyone involved knows what's about to happen. And since the narrator is telling you the story now, she must have made it past the difficult bits OK."

I have to disagree with this. Past tense just has a more natural flow. We don't necessarily know that the narrator 'survived' the encounter. For all we know the narrator is the ghost of the person who didn't survive the scare. Or perhaps it shifts to a different voice. Or we assume that regardless of POV, the MC survives simply because they are the MC.

Karlie wrote: "I've seen an uptrend of authors writing in the first person. From what I have heard it seems that a well put together1st person narrative is more difficult than the same story from a 3rd person POV.
Two questions:
Should there be a pointed reason for writing in 1st person or is it just because the author 'feels'' the story in that POV?
If 1st person is more difficult to nail on the head, should new writers focus on being able to produce a good manuscript in 3rd person before moving on to 1st? "

Really, like anything else, it depends on the author. Some handle first person better and easier, some third.

I don't write in first person often, but when I do it's because I feel like pulling the camera in real tight. I don't put any real thought into it, I just do it. Maybe because it "feels" right? I don't know. I'm not a fan of a lot of rules for writing, so I see no reason there has to be a "pointed" reason for using first person.

New writers shouldn't do anything but learn the craft and fall in love with the language, then write the stories they want to write in the way they want to write them. I don't see any clear advantage to putting out a "good" manuscript in one point of view first, then the other. If a new writer, or any writer, is struggling with one point of view, why should they feel they have to focus on it until they write a "good" manuscript. Like most things, the best way to learn to write is to write. You won't learn to write in a certain point of view if you don't do it.

Dwayne wrote: "I'm not a fan of a lot of rules for writing, so I see no reason there has to be a "pointed" reason for using first person..."

"There are no rules for writing. There are only tactics."

First person lets you tell the story completely from a first-person's perspective. Everything is filtered through them. This can really let you get to know this character and how he/she sees the world. The limitations are that it is harder to describe scenes that in 3rd person. The detail in scenery and overall mood of the scene is easier to potray if it is not all coming from the first person character perspective. Also, third person lets you see scenes and observe people when your character is not present.

I started my debut novel in third person because I delayed the introduction of my MC. After I introduced my MC, it was mostly first person after that. However, I did switch scenes and wrote third person when I wanted to present imformation that I didn't want my MC to be party to. Also I used the "fly on the wall" perspective for a chapter, even though my MC was mostly in all of the scenes, when he had been arrested. I wanted the reader to see him isolated, and I think the change worked well. Then there was a fight scene where I bounced all over the place with scene changes so I made that 3rd person.

So, overall, I used 70% first person, one chapter 2nd person, and about 25% third person.

It really would be a good thing to check out the book, "Mastering Point of View" by Sherri Szeman. It breaks down the reasons for different POV's and why you would want to write it one way of the other. It also has excersizes. I offer one disclaimer. The author spends a lot of time referring to her novel, "The Kommandant's Mistress," so much so I through she was trying to sell me the book.

Best regards, Morris

Christina wrote: "We don't necessarily know that the narrator 'survived' the encounter. For all we know the narrator is the ghost of the person who didn't survive the scare..."

Well, sure. Galápagos for example (although in that case we know a ghost is the narrator). I didn't mean to imply it was impossible to do, just that it makes doing it correctly problematic.