Victorians! discussion

This section comprises the chapters:

The Mystery of Ozias Midwinter,
The Man Revealed,
Day and Night,
The Shadow of the Past,
The Shadow of the Future

I think it's going to be a longer section than I'd expected, so we'll see how we get on....

I've nearly got to the end of "The Mystery of Ozias Midwinter" so, for now, just a couple of very basic questions to set the ball rolling:

- What is your impression of the 21-year-old Allan Armadale?
- Who is the mysterious Ozias Midwinter?

I've just finished reading to the end of "Day and Night." Lots of twists and turns to the plot already.

The Alan Armadale and Ozias Midwinter connection is revealed. Midwinter's past is one of pain, deprivation and wandering. He bears the double stigmata of "his mother's negro blood in my face, and my murdering father's ... heart." Midwinter's sole salvation was books and he "drank at the fountain of knowledge, and never wearied of the draught."

In contrast, Alan Armadale's life has been one of relative ease, and fate has graced him with the possession of Thorpe Ambrose and a friendly rather cavalier personality. Collins has presented the reader with two related people, but their lives have been lived on opposite sides of the same coin.

Speaking of coins, I think the incident where Alan chooses who will inhabit the cottage on his estate of Thorpe Ambrose is very significant. Alan gleefully spins a coin to determine who will live on his estate's cottage. Witnessing this action Midwinter watches the coin spin ponders "whether there is such a thing as chance."

To this point chance, or perhaps something closer to Hardy' Fate, appears to be rearing its head. We see the Midwinter/Armadale relationship now living under the same roof. Armadale lives with the son of the man who killed his father. At the end of the chapter "Day and Night" we find Armadale and Midwinter aboard a wreaked ship that turns out to be "La Grace de Dieu." This is the same boat upon which their father's stood and the murder occurred. Fate indeed.

Yes, this section is still very information-packed.

Because I'm re-reading, I couldn't remember how soon it became clear to a fresh reader that Midwinter was the child from the Prologue, hence my cagey question in the opening post.

I still find these two men very dog-like; Midwinter compares himself several times to a badly-treated, yet still faithful, canine friend - but one which you fear might bare his teeth at minimal provocation. Allan reminds me of a big puppy - he's over-eager, openly trusting, bouncy, energetic. I imagine him having floppy hair, lollopy legs which are still too long for him and over-sized paws.

Pip

The chapter "The Shadow of the Past" presents us with a sleeping Allan and a wide awake Midwinter. I wonder how close this is to your delightful canine comparison. Alan blissfully sleeps like a puppy while Midwinter paces, always on guard, always cautious, always aware.

If we could stretch the sleeping image to Alan's dream Collins presents us with a dream to interpret. While I found the listing of the events of Alan's dream to be a bit tedious, parts of the dream such as the shadow man and woman, the breaking of the statue and the standing by a window give both Alan and Midwinter much to ponder regarding the dream's possible interpretations.

For the reader, Collins has set in motion suspense and mystery. We know that there are people and events to happen, and they will be, no doubt, drawn out in their melodramatic appearance, but when and where ... stay tuned for the next section.

I am trying hard to keep up with the group; so far, so well. Since this is my first time ever reading W. Collins, I just have to say that I do find some similarities between his and Dickens’s style, at least in the easiness both have to create several interesting and tangible secondary characters. However, I think that, for what I have observed so far, Collins’s plots develop faster than some of Dickens’s.

Rut wrote: "I am trying hard to keep up with the group; so far, so well. Since this is my first time ever reading W. Collins, I just have to say that I do find some similarities between his and Dickens’s style..."

Rut, Dickens and Collins were friends and did some work together.

Rut wrote: "I am trying hard to keep up with the group; so far, so well. Since this is my first time ever reading W. Collins, I just have to say that I do find some similarities between his and Dickens’s style..."

Interesting comment, Rut. I think Collins is more plot-driven than Dickens, which is why so much is happening so quickly! There is less social comment here than in a Dickens novel; however, Collins' sensation novels were extremely popular and give us a good idea of what literate, book-buying Victorians were interested in. This was a time in which the "Gothic" started moving from Mediaeval and foreign settings into the very homes of the middle classes and was, in a way, far more unsettling because it was much closer to everyday experiences.

@Peter #4 - I'm afraid the going-over of the dream(s) might continue to be a bit tedious as we progress through the novel. We have to remember, though, that novels like this were originally serialised and, I suppose, readers may not have kept their previous month's copy to refer to and therefore needed refreshing.

It's a bit like today's TV series when, at the end of the episode, you are given a "sneak preview" of next week's offering; and the following week's episode begins with a preview of what went before. Personally I find this infuriating, but I believe our attention spans are presumed to be shorter than they used to be. Wilkie Collins was way before his time ;-)

@Rut #5 - I know what you mean about trying hard to keep up - I'm the moderator AND I've read this novel before, and I'm also finding it hard!! Don't worry if you get behind. I think my original schedule might have been a bit ambitious, so we will take things as they come.

On a positive note, this first section is still very expositional; once we have got to the end of it, I think we will have all the information we need to actually start enjoying the story, rather than just trying to understand what is going on. ¡¡Ánimo!!

I'm pleasantly surprised how modern this novel is! Someone mentioned in an above comment how Dickens had alot of social comments in his book. Many older novels seem to have lots of side comments, and they also seem to go to great detail to set a scene or mood (not to say that contemporary books never do that). But in this book, Collins just gets right to the drama! He sets the scene and mood very well, but doesn't spend page after page describing how something looks. I appreciate how he started with a bang, and now in this next section he keeps up the mystery and drama without getting tedious.
I personally have a hard time reading some older novels because many of them seem to have alot of words to wade through just to get to the action, therefore I was nervous about reading this because I had no idea what to expect! This is my first Collins novel and it makes me glad I joined this group to discover hidden gems like this.
I hope that all made sense ;)

Rachel wrote: "I'm pleasantly surprised how modern this novel is! Someone mentioned in an above comment how Dickens had alot of social comments in his book. Many older novels seem to have lots of side comments, a..."

Most of the Victorian novels tend to be long, and at times will seem to meander about. The great thing, to me at least, is the Victorian novel introduces you to an entire world of characters and events. As Pip mentioned in message 8 the Victorian reader would be reading this novel ( and many other novelists) in smaller, weekly or monthly chunks.

It is rather daunting to look at your book table and see a massive book. No worries. Just read and immerse yourself at your own pace and keep posting. We are all in the same boat!

Rachel wrote: "I'm pleasantly surprised how modern this novel is! Someone mentioned in an above comment how Dickens had alot of social comments in his book. Many older novels seem to have lots of side comments, a..."

Years ago, I read my first Victorian novel. It was written by Collins and I've loved his stories ever since.

This is the first book I'm reading from Wilkie Collins, and like some of the other commenters, I'm really impressed with his style. Admittedly, I have a pretty short attention span, which sometimes makes it difficult to get into all these wordy 18th and 19th century novels, as much as I want to. But this book is different. Collins usually gets to the point more quickly, and doesn't spend pages on description. I also see the similarity to Dickens, in that he's good at creating vivid characters, atmosphere and continuing suspense.

On the story itself, the concept of fate vs chance is certainly going to be a running theme. I suppose it will be revealed further on if Midwinter was right to feel as paranoid as he did (ie. fate wins out) or if it will be the opposite case. Collins might also leave it more ambiguous.

I've only read the first of these chapters. I should be able to catch up shortly. Unless we can convince Pip to lighten the schedule. :) it's my fault as I am the one guilty of sending Nook pages.

Collins never fails to entertain. He keeps the reader immersed in his world. Some of the twists modern readers may see coming, but he was first to do a lot of this. Gotta love a good yarn.

Oh yes, I always forget the original audience had it in sections, not the entire novel as we do today. This was originally a daunting novel for me, but I'm really enjoying it and a weekly schedule helps me stay on track! I say that early on, watch me fall behind by next week! lol
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the original story was published? Was it usually chapter by chapter, or was there a different breakdown?

Rachel, I haven't been able to find info on how the novel was originally broken down for serialisation - perhaps somebody with a paper copy and a decent Introduction could help here?

What I can tell you is that you can read Armadale (and many other Victorian novels) in their original chunks by subscribing to Mousehold Words (sic) - "a free web service that recreates the experience of reading great novels in their original serial format on your tablet, smartphone, e-reader or computer."

http://www.mouseholdwords.com/home.

I have just picked up my copy of Armadale from the bookstore in the Penguin Classics edition. It is a wonderful edition with much information including the serial divisions as they appeared in "Cornhill." What follows is from xxxi of "A Note on the Text."

1. Book the First, Chapter One
2. Book the Second, Chapter One
3. Book the Second, Chapter Two
4. Book the Second, Chapter Four
5. Book the Third, Chapter One
6. Book the Third, Chapter Three
7. Book the Third, Chapter Five
8. Book the Third, Chapter Eight
9. Book the Third, Chapter Ten
10. Book the Third, Chapter Thirteen
11. Book the Fourth, Chapter Three
12. Book the Fourth, Chapter Five
13. Book the Fourth, Chapter Eight
14. Book the Fourth, Chapter Ten
15. Book the Fourth, Chapter Eleven
16. Book the Fourth, Chapter Fourteen
17. Book the Fourth, Chapter Fifteen
18. Book the Fifth, Chapter One
19. Book the Fifth, Chapter Three continued
20. Book the Last, Chapter Three.

You're a star, Peter! If you don't mind, I'll copy the list to the Background Info thread for easy reference later on.

Wow thank you Peter and Pip!
That is so neat about the website where the re-create the experience for you!

Jaq-Lin wrote: "This is the first book I'm reading from Wilkie Collins, and like some of the other commenters, I'm really impressed with his style. Admittedly, I have a pretty short attention span, which sometimes..."

We all seem to be enjoying “Armadale” very much and the information some of you have posted about Collins and his works is very interesting…What you say, Jaq-Lin about Collins’s style is exactly what I have felt when reading this novel. I am hooked so thank you Pip, I will keep up!
So far I have been right about a thing or two, I knew from the beginning that Ozias Midwinter was nobody else but “Armadale III” if I may call him that way. I feel sorry for him, such a sad childhood he got! I think that if his dad could have foreseen what the man he entrusted with his last confession and his own wife would do to his son, he would have rather kept his secret to the grave.

Yes. I did not foresee Neal and the widow marrying, although it was foreshadowed. But it was very surprising that they were such rotten patents.

Gah! The ship!!!

Just finishing this section. The dream interpretation scene was interesting. I liked the doctor as detective of images. But I'm not sure why he has taken such a dislike for Midwinter. I do think it's interesting that Midwinter has held onto Allan's account of his dream. As if he wants to check it against future events.

Renee wrote: "Just finishing this section. The dream interpretation scene was interesting. I liked the doctor as detective of images. But I'm not sure why he has taken such a dislike for Midwinter. I do think it..."

I just finished it too. I've done something I never do and put down my notes. I'm reading for pure enjoyment. It's a great book for that.

Yes, I'm really enjoying it, too. I just finished The Mysteries of Udolpho, which had some interesting sections but overall was a challenge to finish. This is just flying.

Just finished the first section, not surprised about who Midwinter is, though very surprised about his mother and Neal. Why was he treated so badly? So far only Allan and Rev. Brock seem to like Midwinter. I feel sorry for Midwinter, but then Wilkie Collins is a master storyteller. So on to Thorpe Ambrose.

I'd completely forgotten about the mother marrying Neal. In the Prologue, I was thinking Collins had made him such a straight-laced character because he wanted to show that he was truthful and honourable, and that therefore the information we had from the Prologue was to be believed - however unreliable narrators may become later on.

However, it turns out that despite all his stuffiness, he was still a sucker for a pretty face and it was obvious in the Prologue that he was very much taken with Mrs Caribbean Armadale. Why were they such rotten parents? Was it purely to do with loving their own mutual offspring more? Or because they resented the boy's ownership of the secret when the mother had officially been excluded from it?

I'm loving all the foreshadowing. The letter. The dream. The boat. The screaming woman in the night. The woman in the black dress and red paisley shawl. (You know that's gonna show up again.) It feels like we're on the precipice of a dark adventure. At this point I like both young men, so I hope they both come right in the end no matter what twisty bits may befall them in the interim.

Pip wrote: "I'd completely forgotten about the mother marrying Neal. In the Prologue, I was thinking Collins had made him such a straight-laced character because he wanted to show that he was truthful and hono..."

I think they were trying to prevent the sins of the father to be passed onto the son. He is the son of a murderer. So if they were strict and disciplined harshly maybe they could prevent a catastrophe

Just finished this yesterday... I read it late at night, alone out on the balcony with an iced coffee, and I have to admit that ship scene creeped me out a little bit :D

It's very plot-driven so far and just rumbling along, with very readable and smooth prose.

This, like The Woman in White, includes the theme of mistaken or shared identity. I'm missing some women characters, though, maybe because there were a couple great, strong female personalities in The Woman in White and Collins did them so well... They'll come along soon enough, according to the foreshadowing.

Dee wrote: "Just finished this yesterday... I read it late at night, alone out on the balcony with an iced coffee, and I have to admit that ship scene creeped me out a little bit :D

It's very plot-driven so ..."

I've always enjoyed his strong female characters too

I don't think we will be disappointed by Collins if we're looking for an interesting female character or two, though we might need to wait a bit still.

At the end of this section, we now have most of the pieces and the set-up which are going to carry us through the rest of the novel.

In the last two chapters, Collins makes it quite clear that, to appreciate the novel, we will need to accept as given the facts of the past (via the murderer-father's confession) and the portents of the future (via Midwinter's recording of Allan's dream). He asks us to suspend our disbelief to a fairly great extent and to accept coincidences, dreams and perhaps even the supernatural as being possibilities and reasonable explanations for what may lie ahead.

It's Saturday, and we are due to join Allan and Ozias at Thorpe Ambrose. Unfortunately, as it's Saturday and the sun has finally come out here, this also means that the schedule has overtaken me once again, with the result that the next thread will appear tomorrow. A day late. Mea maxima culpa.

Don't worry Pip, I have just put down the book; Section 1 is finished! and now I finally understand of what dream everyone has been talking about.
My God! The chapter about the night they spent in the wreck was creepy, I was almost as nervous as Midwinter. But I am confused about the screaming woman and what Allan saw when calling out for help. I mean, did he actually witness a fight or he just imagined it?
I agree with you Renee, I like them both Midwinter and Allan, I hope in the end they overcome their past. I shall be so sad if they turn against each other!

Rut wrote: "Don't worry Pip, I have just put down the book; Section 1 is finished! and now I finally understand of what dream everyone has been talking about.
My God! The chapter about the night they spent in..."

The notes in my book indicate Collins actually saw something like that and included it. I thought he actually saw it. The incident stemmed from the law at the time which required families to house and care for mentally ill family members in their homes. The families some times put the mentally ill person in a shed and restrained.

That's unpleasant. :-(
I keep wondering whether the people in the island are more significant to the story (because I suspect Collins of working everything in). For example, maybe the crazy guy was the rescued father. But I think the ship had been moved to its current location for salvage, so that won't work logistically. Oh well. I'll keep second guessing everything anyway. :D

Although More subtly approached than Dickens, Collins also liked to bring attention to ills of society.

Rut wrote: "I agree with you Renee, I like them both Midwinter and Allan, I hope in the end they overcome their past. I shall be so sad if they turn against each other!"

Me too.