Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

Just a reminder to look at the Doré illustrations while reading:

CHAPTER XLVIII:


Good source:
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/...

CHAPTER XLVIII.:
Doña Rodriguez: "... have you observed the comeliness of my lady the duchess, that smooth complexion of hers .... radiating health wherever she passed? Well then, let me tell you she may thank, first of all God, for this, and next, two issues that she has, one in each leg, by which all the evil humours, of which the doctors say she is full, are discharged.”

“Blessed Virgin!” exclaimed Don Quixote; “and is it possible that my lady the duchess has drains of that sort? I would not have believed it if the barefoot friars had told it me; but as the lady Doña Rodriguez says so, it must be so. But surely such issues, and in such places, do not discharge humours, but liquid amber. Verily, I do believe now that this practice of opening issues is a very important matter for the health.”

What on earth is this? She has liquid draining from her legs? And that is good?

The foretelling that Don Quixote would ride again was a nice ending for Don Quixote. . . One that opened opportunities for others to write their own versions of More Tales of Don Quixote.

To protect his sense of honor--and to add to his money chest--Cervantes wrote Part 2. It was not intended. For the lovers of Don Quixote, it can be a bonus.

I will see what I make of the additional stories this time.

CHAPTER LIV
This chapter is a lot easier to understand with some background info:

Ricote is a Morisco shopkeeper and old friend of Sancho Panza, who was banned from Spain in 1609 like all Moriscos. The expulsion of the Moriscos was a highly topical issue at the time occurring in between the publication of the first part (1605) and the second one (1615).

"Moriscos were former Muslims and their descendants whom the Roman Catholic Church and the Spanish Crown commanded to convert to Christianity or face compulsory exile after Spain outlawed the open practice of Islam by its sizeable Muslim population."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco

Notice the year 1609 more than a hundred years after the moors left Spain or converted. Several generations later.

I found the chapter oddly moralising: Sancho refuses to help Ricote as it would be a treason to his king. Why suddenly so saintly? In the beginning of the book Sancho did not mind robbing people and keeping the 100 coins they found, even though they later figured out who they had belonged to.

To me it feels more like Cervantes had a dislike for Muslims and it using Sancho to express it.

I guess this may be a way to express the "pilgrims" are not very Muslim.

Thank you J_Blueflower. You have provided a perfect opportunity to describe a social reality of Spain. When people want to participate in the dominant society they lose some of their social characteristics and take up some of the characteristics of the dominant group. Here we see Muslims maybe on their way to some holy shrine or maybe even to Mecca. They have picked the habit of drinking alcohol or maybe great amounts of alcohol.

These Muslims remained socially Muslims even if they were not practicing Muslims. Maybe some grandma in the family still held to some traditions and maybe a wife or sister still practiced this or that aspect of culture. Over time it became difficult to determine who was Spanish, who was Jewish, who was Muslim--That is the reason The Inquisition found their job so difficult. They were pursuing people who wanted the benefits of being Spanish until a few generations later--not many--They believed themselves to be Spanish.

1492 was the first year of two edicts to evict Jews and Muslims. Not everyone left. So another effort was made about the time of the publication of the two parts of Don Quixote.

Some years ago I did a study of Convivencia /living with/living alongside in Spain. The best book: Convivencia: Jews, Muslims, and Christians in Medieval Spain by Vivian B. Mann.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: ".... Here we see Muslims maybe on their way to some holy shrine"

What makes you say that?

Ricota is definitely camouflaged as a Christian pilgrim. I don’t think we are told if the rest of them are actual pilgrims or Moriscos dressed as Christian pilgrims. Ricota claims to be Catholic Christians. He says:

“...I know well that Ricota my daughter and Francisca Ricota my wife are Catholic Christians, and though I am not so much so, still I am more of a Christian than a Moor, and it is always my prayer to God that he will open the eyes of my understanding and show me how I am to serve him; but what amazes me and I cannot understand is why my wife and daughter should have gone to Barbary rather than to France, where they could live as Christians.”

Sounds to me like he really is a Christian.

As far as I can figure they are not Muslim pilgrims – not even Muslim pilgrims dressed as Christian pilgrims. To me it sounds like Cervantes is taking great care in showing they are not Muslims: 1) Wine drinking (in grotesque amounts) 2) eating ham (“well-picked ham-bones“) and 3) they are walking northwards, i.e. not Mecca or Cordoba.

I will read that soon enough and come back to discuss.

91%

Don Quixote has visited the printing house with the “fake” Don Quixote book. I would call that high level humour too.

My memory of the story may be wrong. I will return to topic later. See message 111

98%

Don Quixote: “count on my rosary here the lashes thou givest thyself. “

Wow! What?! To me that looks like a fierce and daring critique or satire of Catholicism. The rosary is used to count prayers. The analogue here is that Don Quixote uses his rosary to count lashes that 1) are not given, 2) involves payment 3) and way, way worse: are for a fake course.

I thought the religious censorship at the time was thin skinned and harsh. I guess that was not so.

58%
Finished Part 1, Book 1

Here in Chapter 16: Don Quixote speaks in a not-quite-sane way for Cervantes. DQ tells how poets are respected--because Cervantes longed to be a well-respected as a poet. He could not tell the future and know that his novel, particularly Part 1 would be read and respected for centuries, into another millennium.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: ".... Here we see Muslims maybe on their way to some holy shrine"

There is more to that story than I realised. Here is from the translators postscript from Den sindrige ridder don Quixote de la Mancha. (My translation):

The reads of the time knew very well what was going on here. If the new convert still felt like a Moor, he did not eat pork. If he did not want to incur suspicion, he was quite literally forced to 'eat the Christian faith in himself', but here a peeled ham bone with no meat on it could be used as a hideout for the forced converts.
The Moors ate sweets, everyone knew that. And compared to olives that had been in brine, 'raw-dried' olives were sweeter, so the brine-free olives were another Moorish feature. On the other hand, one could be a little confused by the fact that Ricote drinks wine, because the orthodox Muslim does not. In fact, the Moors drank in Spain at the time, but not as much as the Spaniards. It fits with Ricote happily sharing his wine with Sancho. When Ricote begins to tell Sancho that he is doing his best to become a Christian, the listener has already discovered that he is still living as a Moor. It can of course be interpreted as the Moor has repented in fright, but it can also mean that Ricote is torn between Spanish and Moorish culture. Anyone can interpret it as they like. Cervantes leaves the ambiguity uncommented.

I finished the book. And I will continue the tradition further up in this tread:

"I CONQUERED DON QUIJOTE!! It was a hard battle, but I won!"

Thank you for this information. I am continuing to read slowly. I look forward to the incident and the discussion.

Top favourite parts of the book (chronologically):

Chapter 14: The beautiful Marcela shows up and starts talking. Expecting a not too brainy bimbo …. Out comes a monologue full of Socrates-like logic. The story did a complete 180 turn.

32% The novel of Anselmo and Lotario.

The chapter of Sancho with his wife. Not so much for the content, but the really weird commentary from the “translator” telling us not to trust the book. Sort of post-modern.

71% Sancho is told that he is the one who was deceived about his own lie.

The meta-fiction in part two: The two are now well known heroes. It even has a twist with the interaction with the fake-Don Quixote: In the print shop, the dream about the book burning in hell and finally meeting a person from the book and having him swear that the other Don Quixote is a fake.

98% Don Quixote counting of lashes with his rosary. A daring critique or satire of Catholicism: Lashes that 1) are not given, 2) paid for 3) and are for a fake course.

The unexpected character development: Don Quixote starts out as a violent cardboard caricature of a knight and ends as caring and found of Sancho paying for the lashes but at the same time trying to prevent him from hurting himself – at least not too much.

In general the 1600-world view: Health is a the balance of the four fluids. Don Quixote is mad because he lacks water (“his brain dried up” is meant literally). Flying brings you closer to the spheres of the firmament. Expulsion of the Moriscos. Printing is the new fancy invention, bringing written word to the masses. There is no copyright so author battle on words and wits.

Don Quixote and Sancho Panza conversations in general. Specially Don Quixote critique of Sancho use of proverb and word of mouth, and then (accidentally?) slipping out a few himself.

Don Quixote and Sancho Panza are the most human literary inventions I have ever seen: They eat. A lot. They sleep in great detail. They fart and belch, and have conversation about belching. There is a full page about Sancho relieving himself “of the burden that had given him so much discomfort” and the resulting smell. Maybe that is a “printing a new invention”-thing: Look at me I dare put this into print!

Well Done J_Blueflower it is an accomplishment.

What I did not like:

The book is waaaayyyyy toooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong. Not only does he write and print every little matter and detail twice and two times, but some of the stories and adventures are repetitive and repeated in variation.

Slapstick type humor. Just not me.

Part 1 is the novel. Part 2 is the more tales part.

This is Early Modern novel--possibly the first novel--so Cervantes did not have the same writing principles we do. Plus the knight errants did the same thing over and over again--and people kept buying and listening to the romances/histories despite the repitions. Also he had absolutely no clue that the repitition would irritate readers of the 21st century because he was just trying to pay debts and get himself an establishment worthy of a hildago/a gentleman of aristocratic lineage.

Don Quixote is a challenge to read.

Part II is still quite entertaining in my opinion. Sure there is a lot of repetitiveness when it comes to adventures and stories within story, but overall it is still very nice read.

J_Blueflower I will attempt to answer a question near yours: How did Cervantes seem to feel about different social groups within the novel. Answer: Cervantes or at least his narrator seems to have ambiguous feelings.

Explanation: Cervantes was captive prisoner in Algiers. The way that Cervantes describes Moors shows how complex were Cervantes' feelings. Someone who can write the first novel--the first narrative description of created and shared social reality--has depth of perception and compassion.

If more information is wanted, books such as The Man Who Invented Fiction: How Cervantes Ushered in the Modern World by William Egginton. Similar information about character development may be available at Quixote: The Novel and the World by Ilan Stavans.

I feel better able to understand the Stavans book now that I have read the Egginton.

I have finished Quixote: The Novel and the World by Ilan Stavans

The book is short, and already at 76% the Epilogue/Chronology/Sources starts.

Here are some of my highlights:

"El Quijote has a total of 22,939 different words. This number represents the author’s verbal reservoir in his magnum opus. Shakespeare, in contrast, used slightly more: a total of 29,066 different English words in the sum of his plays."

Borge wrote a short story: Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote .... suggests that Don Quixote is a fixed text but that no two readers of it look at it the same way

Steinbeck also began a novel titled Don Keehan, resetting Cervantes’s classic in the American West, but he left it unfinished.

I 1982 British novelist and Catholic polemicist Graham Greene publishes the novel Monsignor Quixote.

----

I did not find it that interesting. I had hoped for more insights in the book Don Quixote, not all other sorts of things. A shop in Japan named Don Quixote: Ilan Stavans spends three pages on how he tried to find out why it was named Don Quixote. Waste of my time. Also the long chapter on English translations. Yes, Ilan Stavans’ book is in English, but that does not mean that the reader read Don Quixote in English or is interested in English translations at all. The most interesting part was the short mention of a French translation:

”France is notorious for having produced one of the most fraudulent of all translations …[the translator] deliberately sent the book to the printer without the last chapter because … he himself dreamed of writing a third part”

It is complex book by a Ilan Stavans. I thought he was kind of pushing some kind of agenda. I will reread another day.

About Quixote: The Novel and the World. It is still worthwhile book for me. I just I have to filter it somehow just pay attention to what works for me.

Part II, Book 2.
The Cave of Montesinos.
I was reminded of The Allegory of the Cave by Plato. In a more or less general way of someone sees shadows--these more like shadows one sees in Underworld-+and then returns with somehow new questions or awarenesses.

Part II, Book 2.
Señor Durante as living statue.
Durante seems to have a heartfelt concern that his cousin might serve. . . . This is similar happening in Shakespeare's play The Winter's Tale where (view spoiler)[ wife felt unloved and became a living statute until her heart's desire was met. (hide spoiler)]. This living statue might be a Early Modern motif. I will keep reading and learning.

J_BlueFlower, now I have a question for you. When you were reading Quixote: The Novel and the World, did you see discussion of Don Quixote and Pancho Panza being developing characters in Part II? I think I remember that discussion in the Stavans book. I ask because now Don Quixote is more lightly made fun of and has far fewer misperceptions of inns as castles.

I don’t remember if it was in that book or somewhere else: But I did see it somewhere. It could be Wikipedia, too. Their personalities “rub off” on each other. Don Quixote becomes more caring for Sancho and Sancho absorbs some of Don Quixote wisdom.

I personally agree that they are less cardboard in part II. Probably in part I they were caricatures of something else and in part two that have a life on their own as a result of part I being printed. I liked the dialogue better especially when Sancho comes with a long sting of proverbs and Don Quixote says don’t do that – with a few more proverbs.

And some fine little things like:
“I don’t know how to respond to that”, responded Sancho.

Yes J_BlueFlower that is about what I remember Ilan Stavans saying. Thanks. . . . .So these tales become something of a journey, something more than just more tales.

Reading Part II, Book 3.
Don Quixote gives advice to Sancho Panza strings together proverbs. It is a funny version of Laertes's leave-taking and Polonius' advising in Hamlet. . . .Second time (at least) of the characters in Don Quixote doing something similar to what Shakespeare's characters do. (also the living statue)

Reading Part II, Book 3.
Don Quixote and Sancho Panza are becoming more aware. DQ realizes that his hosts are playing games with him, that they are not respectful. (Cervantes and his family sometimes publicly dishonored.) SP governs in ways as wise as Solomon. (Cervantes was a better administrator than sometimes given credit for.) I can feel narrator/Cervantes feeling compassion for Don Quixote and Sancho Panza. He always has been compassionate towards them, now just more easily seen to be be so.

Reading Part II, Book 4.
Toward the end of the end of the book, Don Quixote talks of spending a year of probation at home before heading out again? Was Cervantes the writer thinking writing another set of tales?

Reading Part II, Book 3.
I had been so glad that Sancho Panza was a governor, however pretend, as it showcased his increasing wisdom and experience. I have been sad that Sancho Panza no longer had a way to showcase his wisdom. Then he proposes something unwise: Let the differently sized men proposing a foot race become equalized in weight by the heavier man shaving of 150 pounds of his flesh which he then can give to the lighter man. Fortunately the people who consulted with the knight errant and his squire find the proposals humorous and invite the knight and squire to drink.

Reading Part II, Book 3.
This story mentioned above reminds me of another Early Modern Period work: The Merchant of Venice by William Shakespeare. In the play Shylock requires Antonio pay him a pound of flesh for money owed. I wonder what brought on this pound(s) of flesh motif.