Support for Indie Authors discussion

It's my FIRST time writing an EPIC battle (the sort that would make Jordan and Sanderson proud), but given where my series is going, I'm sure it won't be my last. I want to nail it. But though one on one battles are easier (less moving parts), when there are perhaps fifty (I know, not quite epic size, but still) battling it out, how do you keep yourself from getting lost? Any advice?

One author who does battles brilliantly is Bernard Cornwell. If I ever was to write an epic battle I would try and take clues from him.

He keeps you up to date with what's happening on the battlefield as a whole, while also showing bits of the battle in detail (who swings what sword in which way to hack off what).

I remember Harlequin had some great battles.

First draft? Get lost! Put it all in, Editing is when you parse out the trash from the good stuff imo. Much as I hate to do it >.>

Scene breaks!

First, I'll say that there is nothing in writing I dislike more than writing an epic battle. Our last book has one: it runs to 69 pages (just the actual combat -- not the opening moves or the aftermath). Our current book has one, too. :-/

Next, it really depends on what sort of battle. Naval battles and infantry battle are quite different. Small infantry actions are different than armies clashing, and battles in which the commanders can maintain real-time situational awareness over the full scope of the engagement are different from battles where the commanders have a limited view of the action.

Given which type it is, I think the main thing is to pick your POV[s]. There are basically 3: god's eye, what I might call "commander centric", and "down in the foxhole" (front-line, you prefer).

The one you mention sounds like to small infantry action? (Unless a "thousand" is missing.) If so, you can afford to go with a front-line view, if you want. Battles at that level tend to be chaotic, so the writing (I think) should convey that. It's OK to get lost. You can introduce a more remote POV to give scale and more coherent descriptions.

But Riley is correct to say "get lost". I agree with putting in all the detail you can think of and reducing it to what you need as the story develops. For me, at least, I can't tell what the crucial details are until I've written everything I can think of.

Boy, I haven't even started my day and I'm already being told to get lost. :P In spite of which, thanks to all of you for the helpful advice.

I am going to describe exactly who's in this scene, in case it helps. Maybe it will help me more than you.

A mutant hulking monster and a seemingly infinite band of robots on one side, and their commander arriving late to the party in a heavily armed warship. (So far, so good.) It should be noted that the commander is fighting inside of a robotic chassis while casting an illusion that looks like her.

This army are holding a princess and a mutant warrior the others plan to rescue, thus the focus of the battle.

The other team is made up of a prince (of course) and a whole band of mutant warriors (two prominent), and coincidentally, the two prominent warriors on this team are holding a grudge against one another.

There is also an alien warrior who doesn't know which side he's on, leading a pack of voracious wolves only one of which he has any command over; he's coming to rescue a little invisible girl (yeah, kids really shouldn't EVER be in this sort of thing), who's the key to helping the princess escape.

(So 50 was a crude estimate.)

I know that at least the better half of this crowd need to be corpses by the end (else it probably wasn't an epic battle.) I know that I plan for the little invisible girl to survive (that's the hoped for result, especially in a YA story), though given her role in all of this, it's possible she may be decimated too.

I also have a gut feeling the mutant hulking monster may very well have set up this fight to lure his own commander in so he can take her out. (This hasn't been officially decided yet.)

So yeah, chaos has a definite chance to ensue.

Battle is chaos. I can't think of a more uninteresting way to approach a battle scene than to present it as making logical sense. The god's eye, omniscient POV where the reader sees the whole battle unfold like a board game or a history lesson by some military theoretician is way too clinical.

My advice is to pick specific characters and use their POV to witness various aspects of the battle, including the chaos. No one character will have the whole picture. Some of their accounts may seem to contradict each other (like someone involved on one flank may come to the conclusion that their side has just lost the battle, panic and flee; while others on their own side but deployed elsewhere might be seeing the battle turn to their favor).

Use section breaks to move from one POV character to the next, keeping them more or less on the same time line.

You could intersperse these with a wider POV narrator to describe larger happenings unknown to the characters, but try not to dwell too much on this kind of exposition.

Or read as many big battle descriptions as you can. Like Tolkien's The Battle of Five Armies chapter from The Hobbit.

And sometimes less is a lot more. I recently re-read Dune and was shocked at how often Herbert totally skipped the battle scenes. The biggest battle in the whole book, the concluding battle where Paul finally moves against the Harkonnens, for example. Herbert describes the very beginning of the battle...then BOOM, skips to the end. The movie, of course, had a huge epic battle scene. Herbert, though, knew that wasn't really important to the story. Only the outcome of the battle as it applied to the main characters, and the political fallout of the battle were really important.

Hmm... I'll do some more delving into this. Thanks for the advice Micah.

Look at some of the big battles on Youtube. See how they start the battle, show it, cut to other scenes, bring it back, mix dialogue in, end it etc etc.

Next, think about what your fighting scene is about. What are you trying to show the readers? How long do you want it to be? Once you've figured that out, apply what you saw with your own imagination and there's your scene.

Once it's done, show it to your beta readers and see what they liked and what they didn't like, and unjust the scene as you see fit.

Good ideas, Christian.
Actually, I can see the fight being plenty unjust all on its own. My characters fight dirty. :P (Isn't autocorrect lovely?)

The point you should ask yourself is what is more important, the battle itself or how it affects your characters? POV breaks/scene breaks where you focus on a certain characters segment of the battle could work. Or you could do a more omniscient chronological telling.

Basically, figure out what the battle is supposed to do as a part of the novel and then you can adapt it to that.

First,I know nothing about epic fights. Since I write in first person POV, from one perspective only, my fights can only be what my protagonist sees. So here's my question. What POV(s) did you use for the rest of your story. Adding different POVs at this point could...no...would throw your readers off. Whatever you do, don't add any more. Use what you have already.

If you were using omniscient, then obviously there won't be POV problems.

Good luck.

I know it's a big risk, and it's talked down about constantly because others call it "head hopping", but I have been using Omniscient for years, and that's how I've been writing my series.

That being said, key players are TWO ENEMIES and something like SEVEN HEROES. (I know, that's a lot.) And the others are in the fight to essentially make it fall into chaos. I actually want it to feel like chaos.

That's the point of an epic battle; anything can and does happen. I like a certain feel to the overall arc, but I want the chaos free and flowing.

I'll keep you all posted about whether the resulting disaster of this project is intended or not. But many thanks to all the commenters for your AWESOME advice.

I know what you mean, yes, but I don't understand when people call it head hopping. Omniscient IS the know all POV. Of course, you'd expect to 'know all'.

I think people mistake multiple close third person POV with omniscient, which is entirely different. While it's normal to see it done with the omni, it's unacceptable with multiple close ones. You can't just mess with your readers' heads. Choose omni if you plan to do that.

Anyway, sorry for being off the subject..

Edited: Darn iPad with its habit of changing words you type. Grr

Iffix wrote: "Hmm... I'll do some more delving into this. Thanks for the advice Micah."

I second what Micah said. We write navel battles, and these combine widely dispersed fleet engagements, boarding actions, and dogfights. So we use use all 3 POVs liberally, although we limit the use of the "god's eye" POV.

We use what I think you mean by "head-hopping", but sparingly. I think of it as "jump cuts". I've heard that technique talked down. (One well-known author in our genre is noted for this, and seems to have set a trend going back to 1993. Thus, people complain, for that reason alone.) But -- like anything -- it has it's place.

But then, we aren't masters at this either.

So far (the villain exploded destroying everyone) so good? (Perhaps a little tweaking is in order.)

Just needs like 50 more adjectives and you're good to go.

The handsome, debonaire, dashing, unstoppable, inexorable, crazed, phychotic, sociopathic, gruesome, evil, wicked, horrible, atrocious, villainous, monstrous villain exploded in a blaze of bright, chaotic, sinister, destructive, uncontrollable fire destroying every heroic, vengeful, hateful, cheery, plump, skinny, tall, short, and otherwise ordinary, everyday, nothing special one of the instantly incinerated, horrified and horror-filled heroes into a ghastly, bloody, tortured, messy heap of carnal, morbid, terminal, and dare I say stomache-churning destruction from which there were few, if any, living, breathing, conscious survivors left clinging to the charred, ruined, decastlized (apparently not a word but I'm keeping it) pile of unrecognizable rubble.

There you have it Charles, 50 more adjectives, give or take a few.

That is bad ass bro!

And if I cut and paste that into my book, no reader shall ever consider another book by Iffix Y Santaph again. :P

Charles wrote: "Scene breaks!"

Yes. Years ago when I amused myself writing lots of superhero stories, I would often stage epic battles between huge teams of heroes and villains. Lots and lots of scene breaks, focusing on one or two fights between the breaks.

The best part of my writing talent is writing battle scenes. The best way of doing it is using your point of view characters, switching between them to show the flow of battle. It helps a lot to use your imagination or draw from other formats to write truly epic battle scenes.

With that said, remember to not switch point of view mid scene, stick with one character at a time or use a crossover moment to switch to a knew character in a new paragraph.

If you are only using on character, remember to keep his point of view, and only his. If you give the reader info about what is happening elsewhere on the battlefield, use the omni point of view to explain the flow of the battle.

By using description and living triggers outside of the point of view character can help the reader keep track of what is going on.

If you wish I could write a quick example of what I mean with all of the above.

Thanks for the support guys. Chris, whatever you wish to share is always welcome, so long as you remember to name the superhero Iffix. :P Seriously, though, if you wish to share, I'm willing to learn.