Victorians! discussion

Pip is traveling. I've created the thread to keep the discussion moving. I'm sure Pip will be posting shortly.

Chapters covered this week:
The Norfolk Broads
Fate or Chance?
The Housemaid's Face
Miss Gwilt Among the Quicksands
The Clouding of the Sky
Exit

Miss Milroy and Allan continue their puppy love (Pip, again your puppy comment about Allan sticks in my mind!) I find Allan rather annoying now, but figure Collins has good reason to turn up the intensity of how innocent and naïve they really are.

To balance the innocence of the lovers we have Midwinter reintroducing the dream to Allan. As light and frothy as the lovers are, the dream gives the reader ominous dark clouds of foreshadowing and portents of evil yet to come.

Allan's spinning of the coin earlier in the novel, and this chapter's title "Fate or Chance" combine in the last dramatic event of the chapter. Allan and Lydia Gwilt meet.

A final comment for now ... I am really enjoying Collins's style and use of language. A few paragraphs before the dramatic conclusion to the chapter "Fate or Chance" he writes "The sun was sinking in the cloudless westward heaven. The waters of the Mere lay beneath, tinged red by the dying light. The open country stretched away, darkening drearily already on the right hand side and the left. And on the margin of the pool, where all had been solitude before, there now stood, fronting the sunset, the figure of a Woman."

Wow. Great stuff. One could spend lots of time appreciating the style and skill of such writing.

That sort of description of the countryside is one of the things which distinguishes Collins from Dickens and puts him alongside Hardy. He is a much under-rated author whose star was eclipsed by the more popular Dickens.

MadgeUK wrote: "That sort of description of the countryside is one of the things which distinguishes Collins from Dickens and puts him alongside Hardy. He is a much under-rated author whose star was eclipsed by th..."

Collins has been a favorite for me from the time I first read him. Thirty years later, I still love his writings

Thanks for getting us started on Section 3, Deb! I'll be checking in properly tomorrow.

Pip wrote: "Thanks for getting us started on Section 3, Deb! I'll be checking in properly tomorrow."

No worries Pip. Enjoy your family

This is my first time to read Collins and I'm enjoying it immensely. The story is very engaging, and I'm having trouble putting it down! Midwinter is fascinating as a tortured character--racked with guilt over the sins of his father, damaged by the abuse he has suffered during his life, torn between his devotion to the only person who has ever cared about him and the superstitious dread that his presence will in some way harm that person. Allan is like a big puppy, and can be just as annoying. You just want to shake him and say, "Can't you take even 30 little seconds to think before you act?" He stumbles from one misstep to the next, guided completely by impulse, emotion, and knee-jerk reaction. His redeeming qualities are that he's as friendly, loyal and guileless as a puppy, as well.

Now that Miss Gwilt has made her appearance, the three surviving people connected to the fateful events in Madeira have come together. I'm anxious to see the outcome!

I also find Midwinter a fascinating and attractive character and his capacity for self-sacrifice, his willingness to bear Allan's burdens are heart-rending.

These chapters move us almost uncomfortably into the centre of the personal conflicts of the novel: the two friends after the same woman; the continuing uncertainty of who that woman really is; Mother Oldershaw's game of chess with Mr Brock; the rivalry Neelie feels from both Midwinter and Miss Gwilt...

In a manner similar to that used by Dickens, we get some welcome comic relief in the mischievous caricatures of Mrs Pentecost and son. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole episode of the picnic outing. Did anyone else spot a prototype Events Manager / Public Relations Officer in Pedgift Junior?!

Yes to everything you've said, Cindy. Okay, I haven't actually read this section yet, forcing myself to put it off because the first two sections had me hanging on every word. But, yes, anyway, because I adore both of our boys so thoroughly, and I'm quite sure that's only going to become truer as we go. Borrowing from the Internet fandoms... Oh, the feels!

Disguises, misinterpretations and the making of lists continue to appear in this section. The "Dream" list now expands to yet another list, that of Mr. Brock's list of features of Miss Gwilt, at least as he has observed her. Brock and Midwinter have been tricked by Gwilt into looking for a woman who is Lydia's maid. The reader gets the first detailed description of Lydia Gwilt as she strolls with Neelie. The vast difference in appearance between Nellie, the innocent, obvious child, and Lydia, the smoldering beauty and woman of mystery is remarkable.

At this point in the novel Allan and Neelie are the innocents while Midwinter and Gwilt are the mysteries, the couple who are in disguise and project characters which they assume to others more than who they truly are.

The chapter "The Housemaid's Face," where Midwinter sees Lydia for the first time is set up very effectively by Collins. A few paragraphs before Midwinter sees Gwilt "[he] looked up and found himself ... .' This paragraph goes on to create a feeling of a maze, a place of entrapment. Words such as "high laurel hedge," "enclosure" (used twice), "surrounded," "(closed by a wicker gate)," "gate," and "thickly covered with creepers" set a tone of confinement. Lydia walks with an "easy seductive grace." She is the snake in the garden, the evil to be uncovered.

As an aside, did the first appearance of Lydia and her red hair remind anyone of the beginning of John Fowles' The French Lieutenant's Woman where Charles Smithson first sees Sarah? Again, the red hair!

Peter wrote: "Disguises, misinterpretations and the making of lists continue to appear in this section. The "Dream" list now expands to yet another list, that of Mr. Brock's list of features of Miss Gwilt, at ..."

Red hair was prized by the preraphalites

Deborah wrote: "Peter wrote: "Disguises, misinterpretations and the making of lists continue to appear in this section. The "Dream" list now expands to yet another list, that of Mr. Brock's list of features of M..."

Yes. In fact, Fowles has his heroine, the red-headed Sarah, go to work for Rossetti. The novel, while modern, recreates the Victorian world and its massive changes that were occurring in the 1860's very well.

What triggered my comment was the first scene in the movie of The French Lieutenant's Woman where the character of Sarah, played by Meryl Streep, turns to the camera with an eerie haunted look upon her face. The first appearance of Lydia Gwilt to Midwinter struck me as somewhat similar.

It's interesting as I write this how much of Armadale is cinematic in its staging and setting. My copy of the novel, the Penguin Classic, has a small commentary regarding Collins writing the play version of his novel.

Lol. Yeah, in their paintings they frequently gave it to women whose hair was another color. Just to liven things up visually, I suppose.

Peter wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Peter wrote: "Disguises, misinterpretations and the making of lists continue to appear in this section. The "Dream" list now expands to yet another list, that of Mr. Brock's list ..."

One thing that strikes me about Armadale is all the creepy effects that were created on the boat scene, and then I realized he was one of the first to do that

Deborah wrote: "Peter wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Peter wrote: "Disguises, misinterpretations and the making of lists continue to appear in this section. The "Dream" list now expands to yet another list, that of Mr...."

I agree. Collins really knows how to ramp up the setting, atmosphere and pathetic fallacy. Even when it seems a bit laboured, I don't care. I just enjoy how Collins works the language so well.

Gah! Just finished this section. Midwinter is killing me. He's such a great character, but his persistent superstitions have me wondering if this will be a story where the characters cannot supersede fate. (I hope not.) I also can't believe that it's Gwilt and not Milroy for whom they've gone moony. Any rivalry is bound to add spice to a story but yikes! I love Peter's description of her as the snake in Eden. So apt!

The handshake, the beggar boy, the starving dog. I love the way Collins uses these glimpses to show us, not only the true Midwinter, but the nature of those who observe. There has been so much in this book about how the opinions/observations of characters are colored by their own nature. I wonder how this will affect the outcome of the story.

"The chapter "The Housemaid's Face," where Midwinter sees Lydia for the first time is set up very effectively by Collins. A few paragraphs before Midwinter sees Gwilt "[he] looked up and found himself ... .' This paragraph goes on to create a feeling of a maze, a place of entrapment. Words such as "high laurel hedge," "enclosure" (used twice), "surrounded," "(closed by a wicker gate)," "gate," and "thickly covered with creepers" set a tone of confinement. Lydia walks with an "easy seductive grace." She is the snake in the garden, the evil to be uncovered.

Wonderful analysis Peter. And I agree that Collins writes some very atmospheric, cinematic scenes, and cliff-hangers worthy of the best modern soap writers.

Renee wrote: "The handshake, the beggar boy, the starving dog. I love the way Collins uses these glimpses to show us, not only the true Midwinter, but the nature of those who observe."

It's scenes like this which, to me, prove that Collins had just as much literary skill as Dickens - even though he generally prefers moving his stories and characters along rather than take a step back, pause and provide little snapshots like this one.

Pip wrote: "Renee wrote: "The handshake, the beggar boy, the starving dog. I love the way Collins uses these glimpses to show us, not only the true Midwinter, but the nature of those who observe."

It's scenes..."

His language is cleaner, in my opinion

Darn! I think I've managed to get myself one section ahead. I'm going back to delete for spoilers. Sorry all. :(

Renee wrote: "Darn! I think I've managed to get myself one section ahead. I'm going back to delete for spoilers. Sorry all. :("

Collins is addicting ;-)

Deborah wrote: "Peter wrote: "Disguises, misinterpretations and the making of lists continue to appear in this section. The "Dream" list now expands to yet another list, that of Mr. Brock's list of features of M..."

The pre-Raphaelites did paint seductive women with red hair (I think mostly because redheads were regarded as ugly or dangerous then, and artists always like to rebel and push notions of beauty,) but much of the age-old prejudices about that particular hair color were still valid in Victorian times. I found this:

During the Victorian era, the most beautiful hair colour was considered to be blonde and it is said the worst was red. Not only was it unfashionable but it was also considered to be unlucky, a superstition which had persisted from the Middle Ages and was still associated with Judas Iscariot. Another intriguing conclusion about red hair made during this time was that women of this colouring were more likely to commit a crime of lust, namely prostitution. In a study published by Italian criminologists Cesare Lombroso and Guglielmo Ferrero, ‘Criminal Woman, the Prostitute and the Normal Women’, they claimed that 48% of red haired females were ‘criminal women’, compared with 26% of dark haired women. Whilst the study is questionable, in the published results table the column of normal women totals 100% whereas the column of criminal women equals 141%, it clearly indicates that there was strong prejudice against red hair at the time. Nevertheless, a saving grace for redheads in Victorian Britain came in the form of the pre-Raphaelite art movement, which seemed to celebrate the hair colour as many artists chose red haired subjects for their paintings, including Edward Millais for his ‘Ophelia’.

From: http://www.thebubble.org.uk/history/r...

I once read an entire book on how redheads have been perceived throughout history mostly as either pure evil, magical witches or sexual temptresses, so I found Lydia's hair color an interesting detail (also, because I'm a redhead myself.) I think Collins here mostly reinforces the negative stereotypes of his time, since Lydia is an evil character, instead of challenging them like the pre-Raphaelites did... Uriah Heep also comes to mind as another Victorian-era character with red hair.

Lydia isn't only an evil criminal, but also a temptress who's managed to ensnare two men within a few days. A snake in the garden is right... I remember that book on redheads mentioned a painter who portrayed Eve in the garden as a blonde, and then Eve when she was cast out as a redhead :D

The information you shared about social perceptions of red-haired women back in the Victorian Age was very interesting.
How funny! I even remembered "The little house in the prairie" Laura envied Mary's blond hair. Not to mention Lucy's Montgomery’s Anne...
Well, so far I must say I disliked Miss Milroy since the beginning. She is spoiled and vain. I know Lydia is not good, but she is intriguing. I was almost glad when she came on the scene, usurping Miss Milroy's female leading role.

I'm with Rut on this - Lydia is the "villain", but she's a really fun one to read! I'm loving her letters to Mrs. O. They really make Lydia a character that you love to hate.

Did the picnic scheme remind anyone else of Jane Austen?

Yes, definitely. The picnic scene from Emma came to mind. And the one in Sense and Sensibility.

MadgeUK wrote: "That sort of description of the countryside is one of the things which distinguishes Collins from Dickens and puts him alongside Hardy. He is a much under-rated author whose star was eclipsed by th..."

I'll take Collins over Dickens anyday. I love his characters, especially the women.

I thought of Miss Milroy as immature and innocent and certainly not used to the attentions of a rich, handsome young man giving her the hope of a marriage beyond that which her station and attractiveness merited.
Miss Gwilt is definitely a more interesting a character, but then isn't the bad girl or boy usually more fascinating? Especially beautiful/handsome ones?

Diane wrote: "I thought of Miss Milroy as immature and innocent and certainly not used to the attentions of a rich, handsome young man giving her the hope of a marriage beyond that which her station and attracti..."

That's an interesting point, Diane, because marriage between classes was still very much frowned on at the time. I don't know if you've read Collins' Basil or not, but I don't think I'm giving away too much of a spoiler if I say that there is a very "unsuitable" marriage entertained.

On the other hand, Miss Milroy and Allan seem very well matched as far as character and - dare I say? - intellect are concerned. Collins was an unconventional man. Perhaps this is not a bad moment at which to cite his introduction to the novel, which ends: "Estimated by the clap-trap morality of the present day, this may be a very daring book. Judged by the Christian morality which is of all time, it is only a book that is daring enough to speak the truth."

I agree that Miss Milroy and Allan seem very well suited. Allan doesn't exactly fit all that well into his new position anyway.

I did read Basil and don't remember the marriage as successful to say the least.

Diane wrote: "I agree that Miss Milroy and Allan seem very well suited. Allan doesn't exactly fit all that well into his new position anyway.

I did read Basil and don't remember the marriage as successful to s..."


SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVENT READ "BASIL":



You're right it wasn't, but I don't think Collins gives the difference in class as a reason for that; in fact, he rather criticises classism via the character of Basil's father. (view spoiler)[ If Basil's father had been more amenable to his children crossing classes, then Margaret's past, present and general character might have been discovered in time to avoid tragedy. (hide spoiler)]

I'm finally in the middle of this section! I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the section. I really like Collin's foreshadowing! It makes me so curious to see what happens next.
Yes I like him much better then Dickens as well. I know Dicken's is much more popular as someone said, but for me personally, he never did much for me. With so many adaptions of Dicken's works, I can't help but wish there were more of Collin's works put into film. Even though movies rarely stand up to the book they're based upon, it's fun to watch and visualize.
The hilarious picnic scenes would have been so fun to watch, with Miss Milroy and Alan's childlike flirting and the guests Captain and Miss Milroy had invited. I particularly enjoyed the picnic parts.

Rachel wrote: "With so many adaptions of Dicken's works, I can't help but wish there were more of Collin's works put into film. Even though movies rarely stand up to the book they're based upon, it's fun to watch and visualize."

I sometimes wonder if it's because Collins made it too easy to adapt his novels to the screen.

For me, reading Collins is like watching a film. The dialogue/script is all there. The characters need little interpretation. The scenes he paints are so vivid that I'm sure we all have a very similar idea in our wildly different mind's eyes of what the author intended us to see.

Dickens is harder work, I agree, but he's well worth the effort. His novels require more time to absorb; I'm a book-guzzler, so I need to slow myself down when I read his books. Don't lose hope of growing to love Dickens just yet ;-)