Brain Pain discussion

Faust Part One
‘Witch’s Kitchen’, p. 63, line 2337 through ‘Dungeon’, ends on p. 133, line 4612

A witch’s brew and a bawdy poem, gives rise to young Faust’s champion, pointed at sweet innocent Margarete. He woos her with baubles and makes first base with ease. Her brother espies her secret lover, Mephistopheles parries and Faust then thrusts, dying Valentine accuses, Margarete’s honor lies crushed. Walpurgis night, Faust sees Gretchen’s wraith. With Mephistopheles help, he tries to free, but she can’t escape her fate.


Part One ends with Margarete’s ruin. Written more than 200 years after the early versions of the Faust legend, Goethe expands the story way beyond its earlier scope. How does the pursuit and downfall of Margarete change the story?

Jim wrote: "Faust Part One
‘Witch’s Kitchen’, p. 63, line 2337 through ‘Dungeon’, ends on p. 133, line 4612

A witch’s brew and a bawdy poem, gives rise to young Faust’s champion, pointed at sweet innocent Mar..."

"first base" Jim??? hahaha -- I haven't heard that term in YEARS!!! You're too funny.

Actually, I was under the impression that they went "all the way" because Margaret/Gretchen did give the sleep potion to her mother, and also because of the speech by Margaret's brother, Valentine. What a waste of three lives if they didn't make it to "fourth base." !!!!!!

Anyway, I thought this second half of Part One was so much more interesting than the first half, and it's mainly because of Margaret/Gretchen.

Did Faust make up the name Heinrich just for Margaret? She's the only person in all of Part One who refers to him as Heinrich.

I loved the intricate descriptions of the beautiful cases with the beautiful jewels in them, and the way Margaret felt about the jewels AND the way she felt about Faust.

I've read that Goethe had "issues" with the church (or maybe I should say he was "against" the church), so I found the comments of both Faust and Mephistopheles about the Priest taking the first jewel box away from Margaret's mother to be very interesting (because Goethe's feelings/beliefs about religion was very clear.)

The final scene, in the Dungeon, was fantastic. I found that Margaret behaved almost exactly like Ophelia did (right before Ophelia's death), and the scene was definitely a page-turner. I had no idea what was going to happen.

I did NOT expect Faust to leave with Mephisto, and I must say I found Faust's character very disappointing when he left. But Jim, in your previous post (Message 1 in this thread) you said that Margaret can not escape her fate. You have the version with explanations, so you were probably able to read this more clearly.

The most surprising thing about Part One is that it has been performed by itself (without Part Two) many, many times. In fact, I think Part One was performed alone, as a complete play, many more times than both parts were performed together.

The reason I find this surprising is because the ending does not tell us anything about Faust's fate. So, in my opinion, Part One is more of a story about how Margaret's life and fate was affected by Faust's actions.

Without a Part Two, I would think the audience would walk away feeling as though they did not see a complete play. The ONLY reason I enjoyed the ending was because I knew there was a second part to this story, in which I would find out what happens to Faust.

I loved what the addition of Margaret added to the play, as it lead to some of the best interplay between Mephistopheles and Faust, especially after Faust has his vision of Margaret at Walpurgisnacht.I thought at this point there was a strong implication that Mephistopheles was essentially an aspect of Faust himself.

I thought the flirtation of Martha with Mephistopheles was hilarious. And I agree about the strength of the dungeon scene and poor Margaret's madness. Another good Hamlet comparison!

I find myself wishing a had a good prose translation instead of the lyrical one I have. I find myself getting bogged down in some of the poetry, which is particularly frustrating since it's not really Goethe's poetry but the translator's.

And, Barbara one source I read said that, even more than part 1, Goethe intended part 2 to be a closet drama, not one that was performed on stage.

Whitney wrote: "I loved what the addition of Margaret added to the play, as it lead to some of the best interplay between Mephistopheles and Faust, especially after Faust has his vision of Margaret at Walpurgisnac..."

Once again Whitney, everything you wrote in your post is exactly how I feel!! (I wish you lived in New York!! We could have a weekly coffee-meet to further discuss the books we're reading here!!)

Although I thought the poetry was wonderful, even though it was translated, I felt that a prose version would have made the original story more understandable. I read the Walter Kaufmann translation, which many say is one of the better translations of Faust, but I still feel that I missed a lot of the story due to his translation in rhyme.

YES -- haha -- Martha and Mephistopheles WAS hilarious!!! I was wondering where that was going to go, because Martha certainly seemed very interested in marrying him!! But, as I found throughout this play, a lot of "plot lines" (if that's what they would be called) and characters were simply dropped without any explanation.

Whitney, I wasn't aware that Goethe intended Part 2 to be a closet drama. Well, if that's the case, do you feel that the ending of Part 1 leaves both readers and the audience wondering what happens to Faust? Maybe I feel this way because I know there's a Part 2. If Part 1 was the entire play, doesn't it seem unfinished?

Barbara wrote: "do you feel that the ending of Part 1 leaves both readers and the audience wondering what happens to Faust? Maybe I feel this way because I know there's a Part 2. If Part 1 was the entire play, doesn't it seem unfinished? ..."

It does seem unfinished, it's almost more Margaret's story as she's the only one with a complete arc. With all the digressions (especially in Part 2) and some of the commentary, I get the idea Goethe may not have been interested in a story arc so much as poetic moments.

So far, I'm enjoying the poetry of Part 2 more than I did Part 1. Some of it may be that I'm reading an edition with many of the digressions pared down or eliminated for radio broadcast, especially from Part 2. My favorite comment from the editor, "While everyone agrees that Part II is incoherent, I am not of those who find all its incoherences profound". While I usually avoid abridged editions of books, in this case I think I'm glad.

BTW, coffee and mini book club would be great, although it seems like we have a mini coffee klatch going right here :-)

Out of curiosity, is anyone else lurking about over here in Faust territory? Is the big party over at The Spine? Are the cool kids all hanging out in Magic Realism? Because anyone not planning to read The Master and Margarita will be totally missing out, plus we have TWO movies coming up! Everyone loves film strip day!

Whitney, I've been wondering the same thing. Jim put together an AWESOME list of books in all three categories -- The Spine, Magic Realism, and Faust. I would think there would be tons of activity in all three.

I wanted to read all of the Faust books, so I decided to skip the first few Magic Realism reads. (But I did read To the Lighthouse, which is the only Spine book I've read so far, although there are MANY later on in this group that I plan to read -- especially 1Q84 and Focault's Pendulum.)

Once we're done with the Faust books, I plan on reading most of the Magical Realism books, starting with Midnight's Children (or maybe Pedro Paramo, which is before Midnight's Children).

In fact, I posted a note to Jim in the Magic Realism "Questions & Resources" thread, asking if he's decided which Borges story will be the first. I've finished Goethe's Faust, and I'm ready to start The Master and Margarita, but I LOVE Magic Realism and thought I would squeeze in one of Borges stories before beginning Master and Margarita. (Yes, I know I'll be reading "ahead of" the schedule, but I don't think it matters when the book is read, as long as I remember the details for the discussion.) I just don't want to read anything AFTER the discussion is finished, because I've done that in the past and have found that no one goes back to discussions that are finished, so I post comments that are never responded to.

Anyway, I haven't seen any posts from Jim here since Monday (and he hasn't answered my Borges question), so I'm thinking that maybe he's just been very busy over the past few days, which might be slowing down some of the activity in the discussions. When Jim posts interesting questions and comments, more people seem to come out of hiding.

WELL, that was a LONG answer to your short question!!! Sorry about that!!! In terms of the "cool kids" hanging out in Magic Realism and/or The Spine, I think there might be a few more posts in those categories but I haven't noticed a LOT more.

Most importantly, I AM DEFINITELY NOT MISSING OUT ON THE MASTER AND MARGARITA!!!! I have heard how great it is, and I've been meaning to read it for years!!

I really hope everyone saw your post and a lot of people join us here for Master and Margarita. (And the movie discussions!!!)

Speaking of The Master and Margarita, I have not been able to find an English translation for the Nook!! I'm planning on buying an actual printed edition of it, either tonight or tomorrow night so I can get started.

Whitney and everyone else reading this -- Does anyone know of an English translation of The Master and Margarita for the Nook? Are there ANY e-readers that have an English translation?? (Kindle, an app for iPad, etc.????)

I'll wait for an answer here before I purchase a printed edition of M&M.

(SORRY JIM -- I know we're only supposed to be discussing Goethe's Faust in this thread, and I really do hope that more people will come here to continue the discussion of Faust. This was just a quick "commercial break.")

Barbara wrote: "Whitney and everyone else reading this -- Does anyone know of an English translation of The Master and Margarita for the Nook? Are there ANY e-readers that have an English translation?? ..."

I couldn't find any ebook versions. If you haven't already delved into the contentious world of translations, I originally read the Ginsberg, which was the only one available at the time and was kind of flat. After looking at the different editions and seeing what information was out there about fidelity, language, and completeness, I decided to go with the Burgin / O'Conner this time around. Let me know which one you end up with!

I loved The Master and Margarita when I read it last year-but I think I'm not ready for a reread (it wasn't a quick read for me then!) although it's definitely a book meant to be reread.

I'm struggling with the Faust but partly because I'm trying to keep up with so many books. Jim did put together an awesome list, I don't want to miss anything.

Ellie wrote: "I loved The Master and Margarita when I read it last year-but I think I'm not ready for a reread (it wasn't a quick read for me then!) although it's definitely a book meant to be reread.

I'm strug..."

Ellie, I've gone through periods of time when I've tried to read two or three (or sometimes more) books at a time, but I've found that I enjoy a work of fiction so much more if I read it alone and just completely focus on it by itself.

I will sometimes juggle one novel with one work of non-fiction, but I haven't done that in a while.

But I know exactly what you mean. The list of books in this group for 2013 are fantastic, and it makes me want to read all of them. (And then there are other groups reading good books as well, which makes things even more difficult!!!)

I've decided to skip the first three magic realism books in Brain Pain because I've wanted to read the Faust books for a long time, but I completely understand your dilemma of not wanting to miss anything.

(Oh, I just realized that a friend of mine just had his novel published, so I may have to make an exception to my "one book at a time" rule because I want to read my friend's book and I'll probably juggle it with one of the Brain Pain books.)

Whitney wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Whitney and everyone else reading this -- Does anyone know of an English translation of The Master and Margarita for the Nook? Are there ANY e-readers that have an English translati..."

Hi Whitney. There were three different translations of The Master and Margarita at Barnes & Noble last night. After looking through all three, I decided on the Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky translation, because it was the only one with footnotes/annotations, and I knew it would be helpful to have those. I didn't see the Burgin/O'Conner edition there.

I started reading it last night and I'm not very far into it, but I LOVE IT so far!!! The first chapter was absolutely hilarious. I'm really looking forward to the discussion here next month.

But I'm still hoping that more people will come to this thread to join the discussion on Goethe's Faust!!

Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. Then read it a third time with devotion and intention. It never gets old. My love of Goethe grows with each new encounter.

I find the pace of some of Jim’s discussion groups a bit too fast paced. Good books are like fine wine. I prefer to sip. Not that I can’t be like a kid in a candy shop at times. Indeed, my biggest fantasy in life is to wallow in all the great classes completely naked – but I digress. In twelve posts (thirteen including mine) and three active readers, only four or five of this week’s discussion is related to the task at hand – that good ol’ candy shop distraction, and poof, the sip is gone.

I’m not a scholar (oh how I wish I was) who can contribute to this level of discussion (oh how I wish I were), but in answer to your unasked question, “where are all the readers” well, I can tell you this. We’re out here, more alone than you think you are. We glide along in your shadow with a wisp and a willow of envy and more than a fond appreciation for your contributions.

Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. Then read it a third time with ..."

Hi Linda! Your post in Message 13 is absolutely beautiful. It's so incredibly honest and open and straight to the point. You may think you're not a "scholar" but you certainly are a fabulous writer!!

Believe me, I COMPLETELY understand your analogy to good books being like fine wine, and that you prefer to sip. In one of my previous posts I wrote that I used to juggle numerous books at a time, but I've been finding that reading one book at a time is more satisfying to me (although I may have to break my own rule a few times, because as Ellie had mentioned here in this thread, there are SO MANY GREAT BOOKS that are being read in this group this year, and I think I may have to overlap a few of them).

However, my "one book at a time" preference is very similar to your "fine wine" analogy, because if you're really enjoying a wonderful glass of wine it's much nicer to just enjoy it in the moment, without "breaking up" the moment by trying other wines (even if they're good too).

I also completely understand that you like to take your time with a good book, and I agree that the pace can be too fast when you're trying to keep up with any book groups. I enjoy taking my time with books as well, but I also enjoy discussing the books I read with others, so I'm just going to do my best to keep up with the pace here. Who knows -- at some point this year I may fall behind the schedule and wind up not having a chance to keep up with the group!!

Thank you very much for your last line in your post, saying that you have a fond appreciation for our contributions -- I'm assuming you mean Whitney's, Ellie's, Jim's, and mine.

But believe me, I am definitely not a scholar. Not at ALL. Over the past few years I have been trying to catch up on all of the fabulous novels that I've missed out on for most of my lifetime. I was a Broadcast Journalism major in college, and believe it or not I was only required to take a handful of literature classes. Since I've always had an interest in theatre and took acting classes prior to college and for many, many years after graduating (including performing in small theatres here in NYC), I always chose Drama classes to fulfill my literature requirements.

So while everyone else was reading all the great novels of the world, I've been reading Shakespeare, The Greek Tragedies, Moliere, Ibsen, Chekhov, August Strindberg, Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller, David Mamet, and the list goes on and on.

I'm happy to have read all of the great plays, and to have had a chance to perform in some of them, but I have a LOT of catching up to do on great novels, and I find this to be a great place to do it.

Last year, when the Brain Pain group was reading Gravity's Rainbow and then Infinite Jest, I was SO intimidated. I had a lot going on in my life, and it was almost impossible for me to concentrate on these two books, so I just gave up on both of them. I still have both on my Nook, and maybe one day I will be able to read them, but I felt that EVERYONE here must be so erudite (while I felt as though I was just not erudite at all) because the rest of the group were able to absorb these two books and have great discussions on them, while I just couldn't get into these books at all. (Actually, I finally was able to get into Infinite Jest, but by that point the group was finished with the discussion, so I just set the book aside and I'll get back to it at some point.)

I'm sorry for another one of my long and rambling posts (which has nothing to do with Faust, but it's in the "Faust Thread" so I hope Jim doesn't get mad at me), but I really wanted to let you know that I know exactly how you feel, and that if you do want to participate in this discussion or any future discussions here, I am quite sure that your contributions will be wonderful.

BACK TO GOETHE'S FAUST:

I think I asked this question last week, when we were discussing the first half of Part One (but I don't think anyone answered my question), and this question will certainly prove how much of a scholar I am NOT -- LOL.

I'm confused about the dedication at the very beginning of the book. I can't figure out who is saying it, and who it's being said to. Which of these do you think?

A) Goethe, speaking to us (the readers and the audience of the play).

B) Goethe, speaking to someone else -- (perhaps it's a personal/private dedication to someone in his life) OR, more likely, based on the words, it's his dedication to all of the people he knows.

C) Faust, speaking to the readers and audience.

Yes, a dedication is usually written by the author, but it seems to be in Faust's voice. I also have to admit that I don't completely understand it.

Any thoughts???

Barbara wrote: "BACK TO GOETHE'S FAUST:

I think I asked this question last week, when we were discussing the first half of Part One (but I don't think anyone answered my question), and this question will certainl..."

I hadn't considered that the introduction was potentially Faust talking, interesting idea! I read it as closest to your 'B' interpretation. I got the idea it was initially a melancholy reflection on old friends lost, a sort of nervousness at the thought of those he doesn't know hearing his work, and then a bit of longing for death since what he's lost has more substance for him than present life.

Since I understand Faust to be something of a representation of Goethe and his ideas anyway, your thought that the dedication might be Faust's doesn't seem far-fetched; especially since it seems to reflect the thoughts of an older man. Since it's included in part 1, I assumed it was written at the same time, but now I'm wondering if it may have been added when Part 2 was written? Anyone?

Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. Then read it a third time with ..."

Hi, Linda! I think your comments here would be more than welcome, given that you are a long-term Faust lover. I was initially intimidated by the level of scholarship of some of the people here as well, but then figured what's the internet for, if not to risk making potentially stupid comments that will be read by people you will probably never meet? People in this group (even, and maybe especially, the more scholarly ones) are very kind. I have reconsidered many of my opinions on books based on comments (or responses to my comments) in this group, and isn't that really the point of reasonable discussion?

So, please, tell us why you find the Faust legend so compelling - especially Goethe's version! Do you have a translation that you find to be superior, or are you reading in German? Have you read much more Goethe? What's your favorite?

Whitney wrote: "Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. Then read it a th..."

Faust fascinates me still because it was the first “epic” poem I dared to engage in, and like all first loves, I return to it often just to reacquaint myself with a youthful fling.

You asked what else I’ve read by Goethe and to mention a few. I became fascinated with the mind of Goethe when I attempted to read some of his “scientific” endeavors and “theories”. The poor man approached nature with a pristine, grown up, child-like, wide-eyed wonder. All attempts on his part to explain light or plants or color with a scientific mind failed him, IMO, because he never possessed the mind of an archaeologist to begin with. When he looks at a flower he sees color and lines in motion. Something as simple as a white wall, was for him, the image of desire. If more people like him taught science in remedial schools we’d have more poets and less war. (Okay, perhaps a slight exaggeration)

I’m sorry I interrupted your discussion group. I shouldn't have because I am not currently, actively reading Faust with you. I should have remained hidden behind my eavesdropping curtain. I apologize for the intrusion. Another date, another time, when I can better manage – retirement can be so time consumptive sometimes – and become fully involved, with or without the insecurities. And, by the way, thanks for the encouragement

Linda wrote: "I’m sorry I interrupted your discussion group. I shouldn't have because I am not currently, actively reading Faust with you. I should have remained hidden behind my eavesdropping curtain. I apologize for the intrusion. Another date, another time, when I can better manage – retirement can be so time consumptive sometimes – and become fully involved, with or without the insecurities. And, by the way, thanks for the encouragement..."

Linda, I think your love of Goethe and Faust qualifies you to comment here without apology of any kind.

Barbara, et al, I've been remiss this week with my BP discussions. I've begun teaching a drawing class, and got caught up in lesson plans, etc.

I have been thinking about Faust and Goethe and how different his work and perspective is to the original version and Marlowe's stage play. The two centuries that separate Goethe from the source legend saw such tectonic changes in faith, philosophy, and science, it's difficult to find real links beyond the basic names and general plot.

Goethe has taken the original lust for power and transformed it into something more broadly transcendent. With the original, you basically get "a spoiled kid with every advantage, seeks out the devil, signs away his soul without serious contemplation, harasses various kings and religious types, then gets hacked to death when his contract expires." Goethe explores the territory of longing for lost youth (or maybe how youth is squandered on the young), public shaming of a fallen woman, a somewhat deeper look at the question of "why be a brilliant scholar if I don't have as much power as God?" and does so with poetic grace and the intensity of epic poetry, à la Milton.

As often happens with a master work like Faust, I'm forced to confront the huge gaps in my knowledge of history and philosophy. I'm sure there are many elements to this play which address the concerns of Goethe's age, particularly around religious and secular philosophy and the pain and struggle of trying to balance belief in God with expanding knowledge and discovery in the science, mathematics, physics, etc. While I can enjoy the play as drama, I'm sure I'd be getting more out of it if I were schooled in the reformation, natural philosophy, and the history of the 17th and 18th century in Europe. So much to know.

Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. Then read it a third time with ..."

Linda,
Why would you want to be a scholar? You write so well and demonstrate a fine appreciation of literature. Great literature is meant to wallow in. You can contribute to any discussion. If you ever take one of your dream classes give me a call:).

Barbara wrote: "Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. Then read it a th..."

Barbara,
I complete agree. If a book is worth reading it's worth reading slowly. I also prefer to read one novel at a time. I find I prefer an in person book club but even that way is not perfect because it's easy to overextend yourself and I also like to read at my own pace and pick the book I want to read at any one time. Ramble on, you're a delight to read.

Jim wrote: "Linda wrote: "I’m sorry I interrupted your discussion group. I shouldn't have because I am not currently, actively reading Faust with you. I should have remained hidden behind my eavesdropping curt..."

Jim, thank goodness you're back!! You just saved me from a lot of "time-consuming aggravation", because I was about to call the French police and file a "missing persons" report! hahaha!! Seriously -- I was worried about you!! It's so funny how attached I tend to feel about people I've only met online, and from a selfish point of view I was thinking "If Jim took off somewhere, how are we going to read all these fabulous books this year???"

Regarding your post in Message 19 of this thread, I still have not read the original version (but I do intend to), but I do find Goethe's version much deeper and richer than Marlowe's.

Of course, Goethe's version is much longer (even if we completely leave out Part Two), so there's more time to learn about Faust and Mephisto. However, there were times when I felt "ENOUGH ALREADY" while reading some of the super-long soliloquies in Goethe's version. I often felt that the same point was being made over and over again, and that Part One could definitely have been shorter. (HAHA!!! I'M CERTAINLY NOT ONE WHO SHOULD BE COMMENTING ON LONG RAMBLINGS!!!)

Overall, I enjoyed Goethe's version more than Marlowe's, but ironically I gave both of them the same rating -- four stars. (By the way -- I did not "dislike" Marlowe's version -- I just was disappointed that Faust did not seem to accomplish anything great during his 24 years of supposedly being able to do whatever he wants.)

Goethe would have received five stars, but here are the reasons I "deducted" one star:

A) As I just mentioned in the previous paragraph, there were moments that were just too long.

B) As I mentioned in Message 2 and Message 4 in this thread, I did not think Part One had a "finished" ending. OR, if it was a finished ending, the play should have been called "The legend of Gretchen and Faust" (Or Margaret and Faust). At the end we know Gretchen/Margaret's fate, but are left clueless about Faust.

C) As in Marlowe's version, Faust did not accomplish any great feats in Part One, unless you want to consider making a woman fall in love with you (but then you accidentally kill her mother and brother) to be a "great feat" or accomplishment. With the amount of words and pages in Part One, I would have liked to see Faust use the scholarly knowledge he already has in addition to these new "magical powers" he has to do something extraordinary. (Even if it's just "a little" extraordinary.)

I think the "extraordinary" thing I may have expected was not necessarily for Faust to do something great for humanity, because Mephistopheles is with him -- always-- and why would the devil help Faust to do something to make the world a better place and to make people happier? My thoughts of any "devil" is that they do evil things.

BUT, I think I expected Faust to go into the Solar System and make some changes in terms of planets, stars, the moon, something to do with astronomy. Even if he rearranged all of the planets as a "practical joke" -- it would have been a hell (no pun intended) of a better practical joke than the foolishness and ridiculous that took place in the tavern!!! Or maybe he could have created five moons -- I don't know -- something a bit more powerful than making a woman fall in love with him!!

Although, I do have to say that I did tremendously enjoy Margaret/Gretchen's character and the relationship between her and Faust, and I also found the scenes with Mephisto and Martha to be tremendously funny.

Overall, I am very happy to have read both Marlowe's and Goethe's Faust, and I do plan on going back and reading the original version which I have not gotten around to yet.

I have been wanting to read Goethe's Faust for many years. In fact, I've had a copy of the Walter Kaufmann translation on my shelf for YEARS, but, as with so many other great books I have I just had not gotten to it. So I am thrilled that it was one of the group reads here, which finally inspired me to dust it off and read it.

Barbara wrote: "Jim, thank goodness you're back!! You just saved me from a lot of "time-consuming aggravation", because I was about to call the French police and file a "missing persons" report! hahaha!! Seriously -- I was worried about you!! It's so funny how attached I tend to feel about people I've only met online, and from a selfish point of view I was thinking "If Jim took off somewhere, how are we going to read all these fabulous books this year???".."

Thanks for the love Barbara!

Re: reading all the books, as Arnie points out above, great books should be read at the speed you find comfortable and enriching. I try to schedule 100 pages or less per week, but that's often a brisk pace for denser work like Goethe. Take the time you need for your benefit and appreciation of the work. Remember the second paragraph of the Brain Pain group description:

Reading schedules are not the priority here. Instead, the quality of the discussions takes precedence. We’re more interested in your thoughts than your reading speed.

That being said, I strongly recommend you take a few hours and read the chapbook version. It's only 40 pages and can be read in a few hours. You'll quickly see how close Marlowe is to the original, and will appreciate how far Goethe has taken the story and made it his own.

Also, looking forward, the F.W. Murnau movie very closely follows Faust Part One. Now that we've finished Part One, consider looking at the film now. Many versions are available on youtube, and I'm sure you can find it in video stores, probably netflix, etc. Try this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muQmM...

Thank you for the suggestions, Jim.

I definitely will read the chapbook. I've been meaning to print out a copy of the chapbook that you've posted in the History of Johann Fausten thread, but my printer is not working, so I will either print it elsewhere or I'll try to read it here on my laptop.

In the message that I posted here yesterday, Message 22, I realize that I did not give Goethe's version of Faust the credit that it deserves. I pointed out some flaws that I found, but for some reason I didn't comment on all of the things about the writing and the story that I really thought were beautiful and enjoyed tremendously.

Based on some comments you've made in previous threads, I already was aware that Marlowe's version is very close to the original and that Goethe has added a tremendous amount to the story and, as you said, made it his own.

I'm waiting until we discuss Part Two (which I have finished reading) to comment on all of the aspects of this poem/play/story which I love -- one of them being the philosophical aspects of the story.

Yes, I did read it quickly, but it really drew me in, which made it easy to read it quickly (AND, while reading, I was aware that this is something I will definitely go back and reread -- in fact, sometimes after finishing three or four scenes, I would go back and reread them before I moved on.) But, I do plan on reading the entire play again.

I think one of my problems is that I tend to "rewrite" my own versions of books that I read. Even when I absolutely LOVE a book (and I really did love so much about Goethe's Faust), I still come up with my own (often crazy) versions. So when I mentioned in Message 22 that I would have liked to see Faust enter into the Solar System and rearrange the planets, it may have come across as though I just did not "get" the meaning of Goethe's work.

I realized how much I was "drawn in" by Goethe's work late last night, while I was reading the book I'm presently reading. Although I'm enjoying my current read, I am reading it at a MUCH slower pace than I read Marlowe's or Goethe's Faust. This could be for a few different reasons, and here I go with the alphabet again:

A) As I had mentioned in a previous post, I was involved in the theatre for many, many years, and I often had to read (and absorb the material) of plays very quickly, and learn lines very quickly. Therefore, I tend to read plays at a much quicker pace than novels, and I'm currently reading a novel.

B) While I was reading the novel last night, I felt as though it did not "draw me in" as much as Goethe's Faust did, and I found that it was easy for me to become distracted and put the novel down numerous times to go off and do something else. THIS is when I realized how much I appreciated and enjoyed Faust, and I was thinking that I was "too hard" on it in the message that I posted here yesterday.

But I do agree -- it is a good idea that I go back and read the Chapbook, which I plan to do sometime this week. I will also watch the movie as soon as I can.

You mentioned that the F.W. Murnau movie closely follows Goethe's Faust Part One. I believe Gounod's opera also follows Goethe's Faust Part One (or is some of Part Two included in the opera as well??) I'm going to look on YouTube to see if I can find a version of the opera (which I'm sure must be available).

Thanks again for your suggestions!!!!

Arnie wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Read it again. T..."

Hi Arnie!! Thank you VERY much for your note to me in Message 21 of this thread!

I'm very glad you've joined this group (or were you already a member before I had written to you???)

I'm looking forward to sharing thoughts with you on numerous books!!

Barbara wrote: "B) While I was reading the novel last night, I felt as though it did not "draw me in" as much as Goethe's Faust did, and I found that it was easy for me to become distracted and put the novel down numerous times to go off and do something else. THIS is when I realized how much I appreciated and enjoyed Faust,..."

Goethe is tough competition for most books, so I can imagine him impinging on your enjoyment of the novel. Faust is Goethe's Hamlet, in the sense that it has become the iconic version of the story, much as Hamlet is an iconic story of treachery, usurpation and post-mortem cuckoldry. Somewhere in my reading there was a reference to Goethe's appreciation of Shakespeare, and even if his soliloquies feel long-ish, they do aim for Shakespeare's level of poetic drama. Evidence that he reached his goal is found in the works inspired by and based on his play.

Barbara wrote: "Arnie wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Linda wrote: "Barbara, hi I'm Linda. In response to your plea I think maybe some readers (meaning me) are a bit intimidated. I read Faust some years ago. Loved it. Re..."

I joined after we became friends but I'm just as likely, actually probably a little more likely to read books from the other two parts of the group.