History in Vogue discussion

Old New York, and Archer Newland are shocked by the return to society of his young fiancé's cousin, Countess Ellen Olenska, after she has fled her abusive husband - and amidst rumors of her having lived with his secretary in Venice. The early announcement of his engagement to May, and the open support of her family, have done nothing to stop the slight against Ellen by those of their social circle. And her presence has caused Archer to begin questioning how he truly feels about their well-ordered way of life, and the idyllic desires he has for his own marriage.

In reality they all lived in a kind of hieroglyphic world, where the real thing was never said or done or even thought, but only represented by a set of arbitrary signs...

• Now that we've been introduced to Old New York, what are your first impressions of their society? Do you feel there are comparisons which can still be drawn to our own?

• What are your first impressions of Archer and May? Do you feel Archer is as different from their society as he believes himself to be? And how do you feel about Ellen from the glimpse we've had of her, and society's opinions?

What could he and she really know of each other, since it was his duty, as a "decent" fellow, to conceal his past from her, and hers, as a marriageable girl, to have no past to conceal.

• How do you feel about Archer's views on marriage, and what he wants from his relationship with May? And what he alludes to wanting from their marriage, in contrast to a society that requires a girl to have no past to conceal?

• How do you feel our views on relationships between men and women have changed, or have they changed?

What a curious beginning...I can almost hear Wharton's own sarcasm in the narrative and through Archer's voice, which I find very amusing.

I can't help but find New York's society suffocating - how much energy it must have required to uphold such strict decorum, and to put on a front for everyone. I appreciate the candid way Wharton gives us a peek into Archer's thoughts about just how "fake" their world really is.

I think Archer is coming from a good place in regard to his upcoming marriage - I think he truly does care for May, and I think he is beginning to see how he has idealized married life. He recognizes much of the injustices of his society, but while excluding himself from these traits, he initially exhibits them toward Countess Olenska.

There are plenty of parallels between this old society and today's society, but in my opinion, with fewer "rules." There's plenty of gossip as well as judgements being passed today, but very few things are considered "taboo" anymore.

Based on what I know about Countess Olenska so far, I feel that society has judged her harshly. Her supposed fling with her husband's assistant is just that until she herself puts any truth to it.

Great start to this book! I'm curious to see the changes in Archer as this story progresses.

• Now that we've been introduced to Old New York, what are your first impressions of their society? Do you feel there are comparisons which can still be drawn to our own?

It's much like England in the way they have an artificial society. The young maidens are kept innocent (supposedly) of what really goes on behind closed doors, everyone pretends to be polite while gossiping about the other person behind their backs and those who are a bit different and don't fit in are snubbed. It's not so different today but today it's harder to hide things with all the media available.

• What are your first impressions of Archer and May? Do you feel Archer is as different from their society as he believes himself to be? And how do you feel about Ellen from the glimpse we've had of her, and society's opinions?

I think Archer is a wannabe rebel but he doesn't have the guts to do it and he's too much socialized to believe in the status quo. He's just as boring as the other men in society but more honorable. I think May isn't as innocent as she seems. She's toying with Archer to make sure he'll marry her. She's insipid so far but I suspect there's more to her than we can see. I don't know if Ellen is sincere in wanting to get away from her past or if she's carefully calculating her next move. She's definitely different. I don't know if I feel sympathetic to her or not but the gossip has to hurt.

What could he and she really know of each other, since it was his duty, as a "decent" fellow, to conceal his past from her, and hers, as a marriageable girl, to have no past to conceal.

• How do you feel about Archer's views on marriage, and what he wants from his relationship with May? And what he alludes to wanting from their marriage, in contrast to a society that requires a girl to have no past to conceal?

Archer doesn't mean what he thinks. He would shrink with horror if he found out his intended bride was no innocent, much like a certain lady on Downton Abbey was afraid her true love would shun her if he knew the truth. Unlike Archer, that gentleman turned out to be "Angel Clare" to her "Tess of the D'Ubervilles." Arthur would freak out if he encountered a free love colony. There's no way he would be able to stand that kind of thing. He's just too socialized by society to believe in the straight and narrow. He's aware that some of his contemporaries have mistresses even after marriage and he had his own shady past but his intentions were always honorable.

• How do you feel our views on relationships between men and women have changed, or have they changed?

Nothing has really changed. We just had this conversation in my family the other day. My college-age cousin brought up "the walk of shame" and had to explain to us old people that it means when a girl slinks back to her dorm room/house with her shoes in her hand after spending the night with a man. He explained that society frowns upon women who are sexually promiscuous. It felt like a discussion about this novel!

I agree with your comment that Archer is a Wannabe.

He keeps up these pseudo-friendships with people who are not a part of high society new your for his games of intellectual stimulation that he feels he can't get from men of his class, but he still feel as if these people are his inferiors and he doesn't "committ" to any of the new ideas (new to him!) that he thinks he wants exposure to.

He's a dabbler and a wannabe.

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "IHe keeps up these pseudo-friendships with people who are not a part of high society new your for his games of intellectual stimulation that he feels he can't get from men of his class, but he still feel as if these people are his inferiors and he doesn't "committ" to any of the new ideas (new to him!) that he thinks he wants exposure to.

He's a dabbler and a wannabe. "

The introduction to the Signet Classics edition states he's a dilettante - his own words to describe himself. Today he would live near Greenwich Village and hang with hipsters without actually committing to being one. He's lazy and spoiled and he can't/won't leave his comfort zone. I feel Ellen thinks she wants that life but she might be the opposite of Archer. So far she's not fitting in with Society and I'm not sure she even cares to.

Ellen is the Real Deal. It would be effortless for her to live that life For Real if her family would leave her alone.

Ellen is no Dilettante and would rebel or already has since she's left a life of wealth and privilege and fled a bad marriage.

I love reading everyone's opinions on this, I'm just trying not to say too much since I don't want to ruin for it anyone.

There are definitely aspects of Archer's character where he's a coward. He's disillusioned with Old New York, but he's afraid to step too far outside of their restrictions, to the extent of even conducting his private life to society's requirements - like combing his hair with a pair of brushes rather than one. Yet he considers himself enlightened, and beyond their realm, until he meets Ellen again.

However, it isn't so much that wants to find May less than the innocent girl he knows her to be, so much as he has the desire to pull back the veil and awaken the kind of passion in her that he's experienced, hoping their marriage will be the idyllic escape he believes they both want.

The changes his character experiences, and the reasons for his choices later on make him much more interesting.

Pay close attention to May...

I agree with Nikki. How complex the society of New york was! Keeping up with the decorum and interpreting each others candid comments must have been more than exhausting and yet back then was probably ‘just done' without even considering it. In so many ways we have changed; our diversity, our speech, our use of various language and yet it really is just whitewashed on. Despite saying we speak freely, people are still judged for doing something different, still gossiped about at every chance and no one says what they mean. Everybody plays games. If anything, the parts of this life we have lost are the ones we probably should have kept, like politeness and manners and self-respect.

I feel Archer believed he would have the conventional marriage and didn’t really think of anything else regarding May. She was sweet, pretty and proper. Marriage back then wasn’t based on love so much as propriety and a ‘good catch’. Today many of us marry for love but the stigma of men and woman remain the same. QNPoohBear is correct, woman who are sexually free are shunned while men are congratulated on their sexual prowess.

I agree that there is definitely more to May, she is intelligent and I am not sure yet if it is in a kind or cunning way. I think she sees for herself a descent match with a man she can probably manipulate. Archer himself is not a bad man but I think someone who has been taught not to question, to be satisfied with what he has and to go with the ritual of Old New York. However, I think in his own way he is questioning it and all he probably needs is some motivating experience to make him step out of his safety zone and experience life and question himself and what he truly believes in. Perhaps that something is Ellen.

I think Ellen is very interesting. Frankly I don’t think she cares if people are gossiping about her. I think she is strong, brave and intelligent and has finally had a taste of independence. It would have taken a lot of guts to do what she did and I am curious to learn more about her. I think she may be a ripple in Archer's lake so to speak.

I think that Archer being open (or feeling) any new ideas would make him exceptional for his time. I don't think he will be exceptional enough to act on them though.

Ellen is a true non conformist.

The way things work was very interesting!