Support for Indie Authors discussion

Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering how you all write. Do you plan the whole scene out or just wing it?
For book 1 I started in the middle of the book and had to work my way back. It was a brutal process so for book 2 I decided I would start at the beginning. However, lately I find myself reverting to old ways and I write the scenes as they pop in my head. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Thoughts?

S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering how you all ..."

You're good. That's exactly how I write. I know the first line, I know the last line. Then I write the darn story. I don't care how long or short is is I don't worry about page count, grammar spelling I just tell the darn story. I never get writers block. I get concepts that won't travel forward, So, I change the concept.

S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering how you all ..."

It varies from story to story. A Ghost on the Lawn, for instance, I saw the story beginning to end instantly and wrote it that way. I did tweak around with the ending some in rewrites, but it came out pretty much as I first saw it.

For The Asphalt Carpet I wrote the scenes I saw clearest (the ones based on real events) and during the rewrites added more scenes to smooth it out and link it all together. Very White Jesus started as a collection of very short, almost unrelated stories and then I added more stories around them to, like above, smooth it out and try to give it one main plot.

I have not published any novels yet, but have written a few in the past for fun. Back then I kind of just wrote them in chronological order, hitting the scenes I wanted in when I got to them. With the ones I am working on now, it's a little different. I started with the main plots and have tried to get them solid. As I rework them, I add or drop characters, develop any subplots that are emerging and so on.

S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering how you all ..."

One more thing, If those words don't excite you while you are putting them on the page, you don't want them in your book. I've seen a pattern develop lately, that is a good quality scene, good action, funny, emotional or whatever followed by a stale slogging bridge that attempts to take you to the next piece of good writing. Average books have good scenes. Great books are made in those bridges.

Jack wrote: "S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering..."
Sounds like a plan Jack. I call that thought throw-up. When I just spew the words out and worry about the rest later.

Dwayne wrote: "S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering..."

Dwayne wrote: "S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering..."

Dwayne wrote: "S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering..."
I've heard of authors who map their entire story out. I would lose interest. Most of my ideas come to me in the car, when I have no way of getting them out. Then they just replay in my mind until I get it on the laptop. As soon as that happens it's as though I un-pause a cd and the rest of the story flows.
Usually. Today is another story :)

Usually, if I get an idea, I'll write the whole synopsis out just to have it not in my head, but then when I actually sit down to write, everything I outlined goes out the window, whether I'm attempting to write chronologically or whatever scene is begging to come out.

^And often I end up with huge run on sentences that need editing.

Christina wrote: "Usually, if I get an idea, I'll write the whole synopsis out just to have it not in my head, but then when I actually sit down to write, everything I outlined goes out the window, whether I'm attem..."

Urghh run on sentences are the bane of my life. And I always have loads of them.

I used to write a book with two or three scenes in mind and then give up due to writer's block. Nowadays I definitely aim to outline everything before I get started so I don't get stuck with writer's block down the line. It's working out well so far!

Well, seat of the pants is much more fun because it places you in the position of the hungry reader longing to know what's coming next. That's my favorite way of writing. Of course, it doesn't always work out that way. In the past, most of my story lines were semi-diagrammed out. Now I have at most a very loose plot line, and I often don't know the ending (or middle, for that matter). So I usually am writing merrily along not knowing what's going to happen.

The first manuscript I wrote I had a chapter-by-chapter outline with notes on what it should cover. But I ended up changing the outline to fit what I wrote more often than I wrote from the outline. Plus it was a huge pain.

Since then I've abandoned the planning idea. I find I need a general premise (the conflict), and I have to know the first scene plus a rough idea of how it ends (I don't even need to know who the bad guy is or what's really going on, I just have to have some kind of resolution in mind), and then I'm good to go.

Along the way I get ideas for set scenes to work toward, but by the time I reach those scenes, they usually don't happen exactly as I had pictured them. That's OK, I like to surprise myself!

But writing like this does tend to get me stuck. I have to walk away from stories for a while and let the story gestate in my subconscious for a while.

I also spend a lot of time daydreaming about my unfinished work. This gives me the opportunity to try out new ideas, plot twists, and potential new directions. What if so-and-so, who has thus far been a protagonist, is actually a bad guy? Or maybe this person/agency/institution has ulterior motives? Shake stuff up, work through the logical implications of such things. It can be a great source of unexpected plot movement.

That's why I dislike the pre-planned route. If you lock yourself into that plan, you become less flexible. And I find I need to be personally excited about a story. Nothing excites me more than fresh ideas and unexpected twists and turns. It keeps the writing fresh (at least from the writer's perspective).

Actually even with a chapter-by-chapter outline I found that I could really only see the high marks of the story.

It's like in the novel Dune where the MC, Paul, has the ability to see possible futures. He describes this prescience as not being a clear view of how everything happens, but rather it's like he's standing on a mountain and can see only the peaks of other hills and mountains. What's in the valleys is hidden from his view.

Same here. An outline will show you the high points of the action, but the valleys of how you move from one high point to the next is a mystery. These valleys were where I found my writing going astray. That's where the roadblocks appeared.

It all depends on what works for you. I have several author friends and we each take a different approach to things.
I tend to write whatever scene comes to me at the time. If I'm missing big pieces of the story, I don't sweat it, it will come to me later. This used to bother me, I felt like I had to write from beginning to end. When I would sit down and try to do that though, it was all crap.
Now I just let what will come come and worry about the rest later. This is our art, our canvass is that blank page. And you can't rush art. Art isn't forced on a canvass.

Micah: "That's why I dislike the pre-planned route. If you lock yourself into that plan, you become less flexible. And I find I need to be personally excited about a story. Nothing excites me more than fresh ideas and unexpected twists and turns. It keeps the writing fresh (at least from the writer's perspective)."

Very well-said, I thought (I also liked your mountain peak analogy).

I think plotting out a novel in detail offers the illusion of "plot security," but for the reasons you mention doesn't truly prevent what I call "Plot Proliferation Syndrome." The bottom line is how strong (or "organic") your story and characters are in your initial conception. If they are strong, you don't need to plot it out in detail, but if you do, it won't necessarily hurt because the strength of the concept will pull it through regardless. If your story premise/concept and your characters aren't strong, all the outlining in the world won't save the story (as originally conceived); instead, you'll just keep changing it in the course of writing in search of a satisfying story.

Over-plotting can impede that process of change by creating rigid psychological barriers you must overcome. It's sort of like conducting an investigation with a pre-determined result rather than following the evidence. The evidence will show you how to proceed, and your characters and story-instincts will do likewise (with any luck ;-).

I think the best antidote to "Plot Proliferation" (which I suspect is a major source of writer's block; certainly was in my case) is to take your time at the creative beginning and not proceed until you have something that more or less blows your mind. :)

Well I have to say I'm feeling much better about the no map way of writing. Although I have been trying to stick to a chapter sequence I have never mapped out my work. I agree with the idea of having an idea of what will happen and then going with the flow. With book 1 I was happily writing away and then I knew it was the end. A crazy feeling. I have also tried to manipulate my characters to bend to my will with disastrous consequences. So all in all I think going with the voices in my head seems to work for me and by the looks of things, for most of you too.

Here's to winging it!!!!!

Good point about trying to manipulate characters, S.J. If you keep feeling the need to control them, they probably aren't the right characters for your novel.

S.J. wrote: "Well I have to say I'm feeling much better about the no map way of writing. Although I have been trying to stick to a chapter sequence I have never mapped out my work. I agree with the idea of havi..."

It also helps to have a good little staff of BETAS. I have four. I did something with my character that made them all come unglued, their thesis was this. We love this character and for her to do that makes us not like her very much. You can't spend all of this time giving us one thing then make that big change. They were right, I removed the chapter. Still, I was glad I wrote it. It made me remember who she was and what she meant to people.

Another thing I did when I was feeling low, it wasn't writers block, I was just not in the groove. What I did was sit down and write her a love letter. Very cathartic and emotional. You need that emotion. Here it is,

My Darling Amy
I wrote you into being
Ink of my quill
My very blood Flowing through your veins
Birthed from within the dreaming
And with me, you forever remain
I am your Father, your Brother, your friend and your lover
I am your perfect man, and you, my goddess, flawed in ways only I can heal
Together we move, our emotions like an earthquake brought forth by me, then calmed by your touch
You my love, forgive no mistakes, for this requires me to forgive myself, which I will never do
You circle me in modest dress while mocking me, laughing at me, and then, when certain I can take no more, your whisper explodes in my soul, your voice, a soaring symphony duplicated only by Angels and Demons. Then your finger traces the scars on my heart as you say,
“My love, You’ve only scratched the surface of all that I am.” - Jack July

S.J. wrote: "Christina Urghh run on sentences are the bane of my life. And I always have loads of them...."

I will challenge anyone to a run-on sentence contest! [Evil laugh!]

Write where your interest and passion takes you. Put the pieces together later. (Works for us, anyway.)

S.J. wrote: "I have also tried to manipulate my characters to bend to my will with disastrous consequences..."

Yep. They hate that. They will "haunt your dreams, and harrow -- yes, harrow -- your very soul!"

I'm a pantser, so I wing it, but from time to time I write a one paragraph summary of the scene. I love writing by the seat of my pants because I can shock myself with a crazy idea if it actually works.

I'm writing two completely different books at the moment, although 'write' maybe a loose term. The literary novel had a beginning and an ending, and the main characters have meandered through their own stories. When we got stuck, I changed the scenery for them and let them complain bitterly about it until they got going again. (my day job for the past 20 years has been as a trainer and I have an old saying - "Adults will act like children if you let them")
In the other, fantasy novel, it's all just ideas and scenes at the moment, but the words are coming 3-4 times as fast as the other novel. The final scene popped in my head the other day, and the journey is slowly revealing itself to me.
Summary: plot or no plot, loose or corrupted, the story is there, somewhere, in the ethers between your conscious thoughts and your worst nightmares!

Owen wrote: "S.J. wrote: "I have also tried to manipulate my characters to bend to my will with disastrous consequences..."

Yep. They hate that. They will "haunt your dreams, and harrow -- yes, harrow -- your ..."

Agreed

Jack wrote: "S.J. wrote: "Well I have to say I'm feeling much better about the no map way of writing. Although I have been trying to stick to a chapter sequence I have never mapped out my work. I agree with the..."

That is beautiful Jack.

Owen wrote: "S.J. wrote: "Christina Urghh run on sentences are the bane of my life. And I always have loads of them...."

I will challenge anyone to a run-on sentence contest! [Evil laugh!]"

Just remember:

Long Sentence ≠ Run-on Sentence
--and--
Long Grammatically Incorrect Sentence* = Run-on Sentence

Personally, I really enjoy long, grammatically correct, sentences that flow logically and are completely understandable. They can be truly delightful.

*(Two or more independent complete sentences joined without appropriate punctuation or conjunction.)

There doesn't seem to be a correct way -- outlined or seat-of-the-pants or something in between. I prefer to start with clearly knowing what it is I want to say and then let the characters say and do it. What do you want to say? Are you invested? When I'm fully invested (and I'm not talking about money here) the words flow.

Micah wrote: "Just remember:

Long Sentence ≠ Run-on Sentence
--and--
Long Grammatically Incorrect Sentence* = Run-on Sentence..."

I'm glad you cleared that up. Alas, my penchant to write long sentences often outstrips my ability to punctuate. (How many colons can you put in a sentence, anyway?) Our new editor is going to earn her pay.

Pantser here. My characters have some magic or something to come alive and direct me down paths I did not originally plan. Good paths almost always. I have long since given up trying to outline. Too discouraging.

Steven wrote: "Pantser here. My characters have some magic or something to come alive and direct me down paths I did not originally plan. Good paths almost always. I have long since given up trying to outline. To..."

It's more fun to write that way isn't it?

For the overall story I have things very well thought out and outlined in a spreadsheet that allows me to detail what each chapter is about and key things that I want to be sure to include. This spreadsheet is something I work on extensively before I start writing and often it is the product of pondering the story and/or character issues at 3am when I can't sleep. Consider it a well organized white board with lots of post-it notes.

When I start writing though the spreadsheet is updated as the story flows and takes on a life of its own. The spreadsheet is just a road map that keeps me focused on the big goal of the book but I allow myself to take some scenic detours along the way :D

Owen wrote: "(How many colons can you put in a sentence, anyway?)"

Only as many as it takes. ;D

O, what tangled webs we weave,
When first we practice...uh,
Commas, colons, em-dashes,
Semicolons, and ellipses!

I've tried both ways and now I'm totally with pre-planning/outlining, but... it's a combination at best. I know where the story starts and how it ends, but it's that big middle that is the muddle. I outline as much as I can to start, get to know the characters as much as possible, and when I start writing, I add to the outline and things start to make more sense. If I'm stuck, generally a good night's sleep shows me the way the next morning. Things that made no sense at all suddenly make perfect sense. That is the joy of writing stories to me. It's like the story always existed and the act of writing makes it reveal itself to me.

I see writing as an art and as such it is endlessly explorative. No two of my books are much alike. Sometimes I start with conversation, sometimes with backstory; but never with outlines. I have killed off a narrator halfway through and then wondered for weeks, "Oh boy; now how am I ever going to get myself out of this pickle?" - But readers marvel at the twists things take only because so do I. If I am not constantly surprising myself, then how could I ever hold their interest?

I've only had experience with one book. Like many, I knew what to write on the first page and the last. In between those pages I had a series of concepts that I wanted to incorporate and blend into a story. At the beginning of each chapter I spent 2-4 weeks walking and pondering on how to structure the concept of the chapter and how it needed to flow. Then I wrote it and started afresh with the next chapter. I did switch a couple of chapters around because it needed a build-up in the development of the energy in the book but otherwise it went well - if slowly. Having only 1-2 days a week to write it took 3 years...

Ian wrote: "At the beginning of each chapter I spent 2-4 weeks walking...it took 3 years..."

So...how far did you get? In 3 years you probably could have walked across a continent!

];D

Micah wrote: "Ian wrote: "At the beginning of each chapter I spent 2-4 weeks walking...it took 3 years..."

So...how far did you get? In 3 years you probably could have walked across a continent!

];D"

:) Bit like that! I wish I had time to walk across a continent... Unfortunately I still have to earn a living which takes up 6-7 days a week... When I need a clear mind I walk, a bit like meditation. It really helped. However, it was only a round trip from my house to Komazawa Olympic Park and back - around 50-60 minutes ...

I create a very rough, not-at-all-detailed outline of the plot and just write the story from there. I can't completely fly at the seat of my pants when writing a book, but if I create an outline that's too in-depth and detailed, I bog myself down in the minutia and then writing is no longer fun.

I start at page one and go from there. I have thoughts and ideas in my head on how I want the story to go. But they aren't set in stone, but help move me along. My last book I wrote, I got to this one particular area and suddenly my fingers wrote something I never expected. I paused, almost hovering my finger over the delete button because I wasn't sure people would like it. But then I snatched it away...because I liked it. That's the way the story wanted to go. And it fits in nicely overall now since I've gotten to the end. I can't outline or plan. I have a general idea that takes a life of its own and I like it that way. Sometimes the next day, when I sit down at the computer, I'll re-read the last chapter or last scene, just to get back in the flow or make sure I didn't leave something out. Because sometimes through the night I think of a part that just needs to be added that I already finished. Don't want to forget any good parts!

I tend to create a "skeleton" of the plot, things that must happen in order for the pre-ordained ending to occur.

Since I write fairly complex plots that require certain things to happen at certain times and places, it is impossible to just wing it. On the other hand, I don't plan out every movement, every conversation, and every conflict. Those can grow organically based upon the situation and environment (the skeleton) and the personalities and abilities of the characters.

I start out winging it and then at some point I begin to see the need for a framework to the plot. What drives Character A? Why does B hate C? that sort of thing, and I mostly always have the final scene plotted and get there somehow.

V.W. wrote: "I tend to create a "skeleton" of the plot, things that must happen in order for the pre-ordained ending to occur.

Since I write fairly complex plots that require certain things to happen at certai..."

This is how I do it.

I usually just wing it and the words flow without any thought but certain books are pre-planned and others make the plan part way through. Fascinating either way.

I tend to plan things out with key subject matter and details in my spreadsheet and then as I'm writing the actual chapter more details are included as they come to me. Basically I am very systematic with flares of seat-of-the-pants writing.

I'm a little bit of both. I mostly pants it, but if I get stuck, I'll sit down and write up a rough outline to guide me.

Oddly enough, before I revise a book, I outline it completely. Helps me see the whole picture.

S.J. wrote: "Hiya,

I am sitting in front of my laptop muscling through a particularly awful chapter (teetering on writer's block) so obviously I am doing anything but writing.

Was just wondering how you all ..."

1. I wing it, starting at the beginning of the book and writing straight through. I have a few big milestones to hit in my head; other than that, the characters tell me what's going to happen. They surprise me a lot, and that's really fun.
2. If I ever had writer's block, I'd go for a walk. Physical activity really stimulates my creative juices.

April

I have an idea and pants until I write myself into a corner. Then I plot using Plots Unlimited: For the Writer of Novels, Short Stories, Plays, Screenplays and Television Episodes : A Creative Source for Generating a Virtually Limitless Number, Story Structure Architect: A Writer's Guide to Building Dramatic Situations and Compelling Characters , The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing and Dramatica: A New Theory of Story . Then once I have worked out the kinks, I can finish. It's a long process .

I start off knowing the start and endpoint and a few stops along the way and as I go fill in the detail between them. It gets clearer as I get closer, rather like driving in fog.