Stephen King Fans discussion

I don't know if it's so simple as saying that motivation alone makes good or bad people... Lots of people do good things for self-serving reasons. Does the fact that they wanted only to claim their donation on their taxes mean that they are bad? I don't think so. It's not really that simple! LOL

Yep. It's complicated.

=\ People should come with signs on their forehead. "Good" and "Bad". That would make life much less complicated. :P

I will say this about Big Jim. He did what he did "for the good of the town." Now, most of that was rationalizing his actions, which were purely selfish. But in his own twisted way, Big Jim really thought he was doing something right.

Hmm, I didn't see it that way. I saw all of his "for the good of..." statements as rote. That's just what he said when he wanted to railroad someone into obeying. It didn't really MEAN that, because everything that he was doing was for the good of HIM.

And, people can't very well say "Well I'm against the good of the town!" so they'd have to be sneakier than him to do things differently, and that's a dangerous game with someone that unhinged.

I thought there were sections where he was telling himself that as well, thinking it. That's where I saw him rationalizing, to himself. A person that's pure evil and knows it won't have to rationalize. They'd just do evil and be happy with it. Even Jim Rennie had to make himself think there was a noble cause to his actions.

I know, it's weak. But if we're trying to find the "good" in the man, there's at least a thread of a desire to be good. Even if he fails completely.

But see, I don't think that his desire WAS to do good. He was just concerned with the power and the control he had. And saying it was for the good of the town was just his way of shutting up the opposition.

You're right, of course. I don't dispute that. I admit it's one hell of a stretch to find good in the man.

I guess I just don't put him in the same evil class as villains such as the Walkin' Hardcase, Pennywise, Leland Gaunt, Andre Linoge, Christine, or Barlow the vampire.

Perhaps I underestimate the man, which is what most of his enemies did. They certainly learned their lesson.

Oh he's definitely not in that group. He's just a regular Bad Mofo Joe. Nothing "EVIL" about him other than his self-interest at the cost of all others. He could have easily been handled had people stopped to think for a second and not just turned blindly to authority to "fix" everything for them.

But that's what makes this story great to me. People are like that. We want everything fixed for us now. Just let the professionals handle things. Well... that's what we get.

Exactly. That's why our society spends so much time sitting back and expecting our government to bail us out of everything.

I looked at my list too. All of those were demonic in nature. I didn't have any straight up humans on that pure evil list. Hmmm...

I truly think that King's best villains are the human ones. The ones that could be that guy down the street, or that woman in line at the grocery store. There's something scarier about them than the demon types. It's more disturbing what we can do to ourselves and each other than what something else can do. That's why I think the strength of UTD is in the conflict with Rennie and his pals rather than those silly leatherheads.

Chris wrote: "That's why I think the strength of UTD is in the conflict with Rennie and his pals rather than those silly leatherheads."

I agree completely.

I think Jim Rennie was a step-child, who was always the one left out and never got anything he wanted. Maybe he had to wear the others' hand-me-downs and had to do more chores than everyone else. I don't think he's evil. I think he wants everything he never had. He didn't have power before, and as an adult he wanted to make sure he had all the power... just saying... hm... maybe the only good thing about him is his determination? That guy just never gave up.

I agree with you Chris. The strength of UTD is the conflict with Rennie and his pals.

I think Rennie may have begun his political career honestly thinking that he could do more for the town than the mamby pambys in charge. He probably felt they didn't have the stomach to make the hard decisions, and he did. Once he actually had a bit of power, I suspect it became intoxicating and he just kept telling himself whatever he needed to so that he could keep reaping the power without guilt.

I don't have a hard time believing he started out with good intentions, but you know what they say about the road to Hell...

Bonita wrote: "Thanks Becky, that cleared up a little of this fog surrounding my brain. Intention. Yeah, that makes a lot of difference...
Since we're reading On Writing this month, my brain is s..."

Reference in UTD to another book
p. 387? SK makes reference to Joyce Carol Oates' "Because It Is Bitter, and Because It Is My Heart", referring to one of the main characters.
Oates' nonvel examines racial and class hatred, just as UTD does.
The more I read King's work, the more in awe of him I become.

Kandice wrote: "...but you know what they say about the road to Hell...
"

adverbs?

Joyce Carol Oates rocks. Love when King makes reference to other works.

I noticed the Jack Reacher reference as well - primarily because it's one of the few things I truly disagree with King on. Reacher is like this "superman" who knows all the martial arts, ace at pistols, etc. -- He can do no wrong -- and it's SO unrealistic! Anyway - I do agree with Chris that Rennie is not in the same class as Pennywise, etc. But I also agree that it is a stretch to find some good in a man who "assisted" his wife to her death, and so on. --But King's strength IS in putting ordinary people into extraordinary circumstances - this is where he shines like no one else.

Adverbs...LOL! Seriously, though, I really think he could have started out an ass, but not neccesarily as bad an ass as he ended up. Slippery slope and all that.

For me Rennie (as a character) was a problem because I couldn't find any good in him. It's unrealistic to think any human being is all good or all bad. Even Junior had his moment with the kids, as jarring as that was. I would've liked it a little better if Rennie had one redeeming quality...say, if he had really loved Junior.

Or if he liked puppies, or something. I agree completely Betsy. But I think he's the type that would deal with puppies rather than grow attached to them.

I shudder to think how Rennie would deal with puppies!

Ugh. I don't recall what it was, but one book that I read had a scene with a man who crushed unwanted kittens' skulls under his boots. =\ *shudder*

Sorry. That was probably TMI. But now it's bugging me. I can't remember which book that was.

I would guess Rennie would be the gunny sack and brick sort.

Becky wrote: "Sorry. That was probably TMI. But now it's bugging me. I can't remember which book that was. "

That seems familiar to me too. We must have read the same book but I can't think what it was either. Could it have been an SK?

I think so, but I'm really drawing a blank.

Tom wrote: "Bonita wrote: "Thanks Becky, that cleared up a little of this fog surrounding my brain. Intention. Yeah, that makes a lot of difference...
Since we're reading On Writing this month, ..."

my friend just lent me Because It Is Bitter, and Because It Is My Heart. She read it and loved it and I was like "Hey, that was mentioned in Under The Dome." Too much to read before it though.

Betsy wrote: "Becky wrote: "Sorry. That was probably TMI. But now it's bugging me. I can't remember which book that was. "

That seems familiar to me too. We must have read the same book but I can't think wha..."

Stillson killed a puppy in The Dead Zone. I think Rennie is evil in the same way Stillson was evil, except Stillson always seemed like a puppet having his strings pulled by others to me.

Yeah, but this definitely wasn't Stillson. He kicked that dog to death. What I'm thinking of was kittens and it was definitely crushing.

Becky wrote: "Yeah, but this definitely wasn't Stillson. He kicked that dog to death. What I'm thinking of was kittens and it was definitely crushing."

I think it was someone in Cujo...don't remember who...

Ooh! I think you may be right! I think it was! Joe? I think Joe.

Joe Cambers, or was it chambers? Anyway, I am pretty sure it was barn cats that had kittens and he didn't want anymore around than were needed to keep rats under control.

Yeah, I think you're right. And yeah, it's Cambers.

Wow. That was really bugging me. Thanks everyone!

I noticed the Jack Reacher reference as well - primarily because it's one of the few things I truly disagree with King on. Reacher is like this "superman" who knows all the martial arts, ace at pistols, etc. -- He can do no wrong -- and it's SO unrealistic!

I agree, Bondama, and at first I thought that Barbie may be in a similar mould, but I was pleased that he was the reluctant leader/hero who didn't have all the answers. Yes there was evidence of his army training, but on a more practical realistic level. He definitely wasn't a superhero, otherwise we'd have had him saving the day, recovering the propane, preventing the meth lab going up, putting Big Jim in his place etc etc. It would have been rubbish! Not Uncle Stevie's style at all. A passing reference was enough to raise a smile of recognition - I'm glad he wasn't drafted in, though!

I am afraid I missed the December discussion with just starting the book last week. I haven't been able to put it down and I have about 40 pages left. I have really enjoyed it, maybe in my top ten SK books.

Denise wrote: " otherwise we'd have had him saving the day, recovering the propane, preventing the meth lab going up, putting Big Jim in his place etc etc. It would have been rubbish! Not Uncle Stevie's style at all..."

Yeah. I think King purposely avoids writing it that way because he wants to surprise the reader. Who wants a predicatable story? Or a perfect hero? Blah.

Erick wrote: "I am afraid I missed the December discussion with just starting the book last week. I haven't been able to put it down and I have about 40 pages left. I have really enjoyed it, maybe in my top te..."

No worries, Erick - the electronic version (which I read) didn't come out until 12/24, so I just finished it myself, and got into the discussion way late!

You all have got to realize - UTD is such a BIG book -- and so obviously one of King's "major" works - I think we'll be discussing this one for a loooong time.

Bondama wrote: "You all have got to realize - UTD is such a BIG book -- and so obviously one of King's "major" works - I think we'll be discussing this one for a loooong time."

Cool!

Re SK's reference to other works, "Because it is bitter and because it is my heart" may be a reference to a poem that predates the Oates book, Stephen Crane's In The Desert.
http://vmlinux.org/ilse/lit/crane.htm

I finally finished and wow I really liked it. It amazes me that pwoplw could react so strongly and become unhinged so quickly. But it made great reading. Big Jim was really an evil sob I would have liked his death to have been really torture. Like the whole town string him up by his balls or something. I put this up there with The Stand and The Shining and Misery as my faves.

I don't know if this is a spoiler thread so please note SPOILERS BELOW:

Alicia,
I agree that it would have been nice to have Rennie go out in a slow, painful, spectacular way. However, I do see some justice in the fact that he died through panic after he had so skillfully manipulated the panic of the town.

SPOILERS:



I was also initially disappointed that Rennie did not die a slow and agonizing death especially since he was responsible for - What happened.

However, now I have come to really prefer the madness that he fell into that drove him out of the shelter and into - what he had created.

For him to die slowly in the shelter wouldn't have been justice.

Spoilers:



I thought that his end was fairly appropriate.

He caused the chaos that led to the decimation of the town. He manufactured the panic and the "police-state" and setting mean-natured, gung-ho teens in positions of authority is never, never a good idea.

He also set up the lab, and organized the stock-piling of the propane, AND set Chef on his way to becoming the drug-addled loony that he was. He even hoped that the dome would stay in place longer.

So, I thought that his ending alone and with absolutely no control at all, frightened and suffocating on poisonous air was fitting. My only wish is that he actually had to suffocate, and didn't get the heart-attack quick release.

SPOILERS***************


I agree that a long suffering death for Rennie wasn't going to fit, and feel that his panic and fear before death was much, much deserved!

One thing I feel more and more unhappy about, is Andrea's death. As someone mentioned, there was all that "ghost talk" to find the envelope, and then Andrea bucks up and decides to do the right thing for the town. It made no difference at all. She died so suddenly and with such little effect. I guess that's probably pretty realistic. How many people think they are doing something that will have a huge impact and then...it just doesn't. We are all the heroes of our own stories, but in real life, there are very few recognized heroes.

Becky wrote: "Spoilers:
He caused the chaos that led to the decimation of the town. He manufactured the panic and the "police-state" and setting mean-na..."

Yep. All that is what I meant with my vague references to "what he caused" and "What happened". :) But I do like the way you put it Becky.

Kandice wrote: "SPOILERS***************
I agree that a long suffering death for Rennie wasn't going to fit, and feel that his panic and fear before death was much, much deserved!
One thing I feel more and ..."

I totally agree about Andrea. She worked so hard to clean herself up and then it was over just like that. Isn't the fellow that killed her the same one that winds up in the shelter with Rennie? Must say he got what he deserved. Especially since he continued the path that Rennie set before him even after he learned the truth of what Rennie was. I can't remember his name right at the moment.

Dung Beetle wrote: "Re SK's reference to other works, "Because it is bitter and because it is my heart" may be a reference to a poem that predates the Oates book, Stephen Crane's In The Desert.
http://vmlinux.org/il..."

Indeed it could be! Thanks!

Leslie, that was Carter Thibodeau

Leslie wrote: "Kandice wrote: "SPOILERS***************
I agree that a long suffering death for Rennie wasn't going to fit, and feel that his panic and fear before death was much, much deserved!
One thing I feel..."

Agree with both of you about Andie. It sucks...but it sucks in real life too. On the one hand I was so "proud" of her for having the guts to get clean and for wanting to do the right thing. On the other, her premature, violent death made me think, "yeah, that's the way things are sometimes." You go through a personal hell to make things right, and it comes to nothing.

Andie's death really reminded me of the "lesson learned" by the boy in "Desperation" -- God is cruel.

btw, Angie - that is a FANTASTIC pic of himself that you used on our group page!