Brain Pain discussion

I'd definitely be with Rick there - Kafka is the only author I could think of who is even vaguely similar to Robert Walser. They are of course also vastly different, but that should make reading thema long each other even more interesting. ;)

The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolano

Reader's Block by David Markson

The Appointment by Herta Muller

The Myth of Sisyphus and other Essays by Albert Camus

Barbara wrote: "The Savage Detectives by Roberto Bolano

Reader's Block by David Markson

The Appointment by Herta Muller

The Myth of Sisyphus and other Essays by Albert Camus"

Good suggestions! The Markson sounds particularly intriguing.

@Enrique - Women and Men would be a great read, but it's out of print and used copies exceed $200+. Would gladly add it to the list if it's re-issued. Is there another of his books you would recommend that's still in print?

I love all of Barbara's suggestions? The Myth of Sisyphus-which I read in college-had a profound effect on my, greater than almost any other piece of writing I can think of. I still quote it constantly. And Reader's Block is wonderful (of course, I love all of Markson).

I'd like to cast my tuppence worth into the ring in favour of The Myth of Sisyphus as well. I love Camus, and have been meaning to read The Myth of Sisyphus for a long time, but have never got round to it.

Plus 3 for Albert.

I think he might be a good candidate for a "Spotlight on Camus" project, with a selection of his fiction, non-fiction, and plays.

If reading Kafka, try some Heinrich von Kleist to go with it. The short stories are excellent, and I only ever heard of Kleist because I'd read he was influential on Kafka.

This could lead to a theme of canonical authors and their rolemodels.

If reading Doestoevsky, try a more rarely read work: The Vilage of Stepanchikovo. Haven't you always wanted to reply to the question "what are you reading?" with "Oh, just a light comedy by Doestoevsky"? In it he skewers his own literary idol and political enemy Nikolai Gogol, mainly as the model for megalomania.

If you like long books, you might as well try the longest ever English language novel: Samuel Richardson's Clarissa. I was once fortunate to be unemployed, single, and friendless for long enough to read this while playing at being a hermit in New Mexico. It's a very rewarding read!

A Celine binge could be exciting. Keeping with the theme of straying from the beaten path, Guignol's band and London Bridge are a great pairing. Just think "Journey to the End of Night, and Death on the Installment Plan, but more insane and even more off the map stylistically."

If you threw some Hamsun into the mix, you could have a theme of "I don't care if they were traitors, collaborators, racists, or Nazi sympathizers 'cause they wrote great books." Then we could include Growth of the Soil, admired by those Nobel Prize awarding folks and Adolf Hitler alike.

Zadignose wrote: " Haven't you always wanted to reply to the question "what are you reading?" with "Oh, just a light comedy by Doestoevsky"? .."

Good one!

"I don't care if they were traitors, collaborators, racists, or Nazi sympathizers 'cause they wrote great books."

That would make a great Listopia list. Who else? Ezra Pound. There must be many more.

Ellie wrote: "I love all of Barbara's suggestions? The Myth of Sisyphus-which I read in college-had a profound effect on my, greater than almost any other piece of writing I can think of. I still quote it consta..."

Thank you, Ellie, Jim, Enrique, and David, for liking some of my suggestions!! I love all of the books that are scheduled for 2013, and now I'm already looking forward to 2014!

Jim, I love your idea for a "Spotlight on Camus." And I'm so glad that everyone here loves Markson.

Even though we're reading two of Haruki Murakami's books in 2013, I'm always open for more of his work. South of the Border, West of the Sun is a shorter book of Murakami's, and I think it's great book for discussions.

Also, I've always wanted to read Rushdie's Satanic Verses (but I'm very glad that we're reading Midnight's Children this year).

Murakami and Rushdie are just two suggestions as long as no one minds reading the same author two years in a row when there are SO MANY awesome writers out there.

Zadignose wrote: "If reading Kafka, try some Heinrich von Kleist to go with it. The short stories are excellent, and I only ever heard of Kleist because I'd read he was influential on Kafka.

This could lead to a th..."

I'm ashamed to say this, but I've never read any Dostoyevsky. I was always afraid that it would be too depressing. I'm probably the only person in this group who has not read his work, but I would definitely be open to giving it a try.

As far as Celine, I tried reading Journey to the End of the Night around twelve years ago, but I had a hard time focusing on it. (Actually, "focusing" is often difficult for me, but my level of focus is much better now than it was back then.) I would love to give Celine another try.

http://www.dzancbooks.org/publishing/...

McElroy and Coover's catalog are slated to be released by dzanc books as ebooks. Maybe some emails would influence the schedule.

54: Damn, Jim, you ain't kidding about "Women and Men." And I just bought a copy last year for only $21! Did I get the last affordable one? Same goes for "Insatiability by Stanislaw Witkiewicz. I'd actually be willing to trade my copy of Women and Men for one!

There's a copy of Women and Men for $33 listed on Bibliophile, if someone wants to grab it: http://www.bookbase.com/search?search...

I would rather not read Celine, personally.

Is there another McElroy we could read? $33 is a little steep for me. Maybe the ebook version, assuming it's more reasonable. Or A Smuggler's Bible which is $20.00 (and less in paperback).

Invite to You Folks Talking About McElroy:

(no intention to subvert BP plans) I moderate a reading group for McElroy's Women & Men. We have agreed on an at-your-own-pace schedule. Several of us read it at the end of 2012, and our discussion threads got filled up with some excellent material by some talented readers who are interested in helping along any and all future W&M readers. If you have any interest whatsoever in McElroy and his books, please join:
http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/7...

W&M was affordably priced last year. I got mine a year ago for under US$20. A PW weekly article highlighted W&M as a 'difficult' book and prices have since skyrocketed. I have already been in touch with Dzanc about the eventuality of a paper edition to coincide with the e-text release this summer. It would appear that there has not been sufficient demand to justify the expense of a print-run; or I assume that they will keep an eye on sales of Cannonball and the rerelease of Ancient History. My understanding is that Dalkey no longer has rights to the book.

My suggestion for a BP McElroy reading would be Smuggler's Bible or his recent story collection, Night Soul.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Invite to You Folks Talking About McElroy:

(no intention to subvert BP plans) I moderate a reading group for McElroy's Women & Men. We have agreed on an at-your-own-pace schedule. Several of us..."

A Smuggler's Bible sounds like a good alternative if it's still difficult to find reasonably priced copies of W&M next year. We've got 8 or 9 months before we'll be voting, so hopefully something will change.

Enrique wrote: "54> @Jim: in my fervor for Women & Men I completely forgot that Dalkey had foolishly let it go out of print! $200! Really? I got mine for $12 six years ago -- perhaps it was still in print then..."

I've read some of Hunger's Brides but stopped because it seemed strangely disappointing (strangely since I'm fascinated by Sor Juana Ines) but I'd be willing to try again. I may be missing something & I really want to like this book.

And, incidentally, this discussion reminds me of my TBR shelf-endless & endlessly expanding.

Enrique wrote: "Newbie here. Enjoying seeing Joseph McElroy, Raymond Federman, Perec & Coover & others mentioned. Looking through what's been mentioned I'm trying to think of cool titles to add. Difficult. Hmm..."

Sadly for me, the article on McElroy left me longing to read Women and Men.

Ellie wrote: "And, incidentally, this discussion reminds me of my TBR shelf-endless & endlessly expanding..."

Maybe we should all create a 'hamlet' shelf - a 'to be or not to be read' shelf. Would reduce the stress of whether 'tis nobler to suffer the outrageous pressures of professional marketers, or read what we can and enjoy it more...

BTW, I'm all for reading Women and Men. I just want to be sure there are some reasonably-priced copies available - say under $50 - so that as many members as possible can participate if they choose to.

I totally agree - with both your statements!

Ellie wrote: "I totally agree - with both your statements!"

Don't forget to create a 'hamlet' shelf - LOL!

There's an ocean of reading connected to that one.

No one wants to read some DFW in 2014?
I would like to see BP read:
Girl with Curious Hair
Oblivion
Also how abt some Theroux here? Let's see how our cool as cucumber moderator Jim handles the resultant heat of
Darconville's Cat
Laura Warholic

Definately Kafka,more of Barth & some Coover.
And WTV's Europe Central & some of his nonfiction.

Thank you.

There's been a lot of great suggestions. I would like to submit Mulligan Stew to increase the odds of salting the BP 2014 list with books I own and need to read.

Mala wrote: "No one wants to read some DFW in 2014?
I would like to see BP read:
Girl with Curious Hair
Oblivion
Also how abt some Theroux here? Let's see how our cool as cucumber moderator Jim handles the resu..."

In general, short stories are harder to discuss. Oblivion was not so great compared to his non-fiction. I would lean towards The Broom of the System or The Pale King.

Would love to read Darconville’s Cat, but it's out of print, and so can be expensive. Maybe Laura Warholic: Or, the Sexual Intellectual or another of his books.

@James - Mulligan Stew has been suggested before, and it would be good to salt the BP soup. Maybe we can make a Dalkey Archive project and add lots of their more exotic and obscure offerings.


PS Everyone: When making suggestions, please add book links so we can check out your ideas easier.

Jim wrote: "...PS Everyone: When making suggestions, please add book links so we can check out your ideas easier."

Oops. I didn't think of that.

The Village of Stepanchikovo
The Marquise of O and Other Stories
Clarissa, or the History of a Young Lady
Guignol's Band
London Bridge
Growth of the Soil

were mentioned.

Zadignose wrote: "Jim wrote: "...PS Everyone: When making suggestions, please add book links so we can check out your ideas easier."

Oops. I didn't think of that.

The Village of Stepanchikovo
The Marquise of O and..."

Thanks Z!

Other than being very long, is there something challenging or formally inventive about Clarissa? I would be reluctant to have us read a 1500+ page romance novel.

Céline has a lot to offer. Where would you recommend starting with his canon?

There seems to be a lot of interest in Hamsun around Goodreads. Is there something innovative in his work or is it more about the quality of his story-telling? The reason I ask is because the BP project in general is about reading difficult books where having a group discussion would help in getting through - like with Ulysses last year.

Clarissa is kind of more fun than Pamela but not challenging, I didn't think.

Hmmm... let's see.

Clarissa is an epistolary novel; there's no narrative voice, it's all a collection of letters written between the characters. It's pulled off brilliantly. Letters sometimes cross one another, as one person is writing before receiving the previous correspondence of another. My take on it is that it's not a romance, it's really a brutal slide into degradation of a saintly (but perhaps very slightly perverse or idiotic) character, the victim not just of an artful seducer (who nevertheless loves her as much as he is driven to harm her), but rather she is mainly the victim of her foolish family who drive her into despair by their misguided efforts to protect her. There's definitely room for multiple interpretations regarding characters and the psychology that drives them... some readers will harshly blame the same characters that others praise (though of course there is also some unambiguous villainy and absolute goodness on display as well). Meanwhile, the author of an ostensibly Christian morality tale has such an understanding, sympathy, and even relish for the villain, it's like Milton's creation of Satan as the true hero of Paradise Lost. The novel is truly unrelenting and punishing in it's commitment to a narrative that goes from bad to worse to worse to worse, and only seems to go down when you think there's no further down to go. It offended some of the Christian lady readers in its day, too, because it did not conform to the expectation of Justice in the here and now of the narrative. But don't consider any of this a spoiler. It's all in the execution and development, and there are certainly plenty of surprising twists... plus I didn't really mention the end. Meanwhile, the writing style is quite challenging in an eighteenth-century high-literary way, but is really masterly. You'll be thinking in the language of the characters before long.

Celine's first novel, Journey to the End of Night, is probably his most read and most highly regarded novel, and it had a big impact on its first reception. And fair enough, it's a great book. Death on the Installment plan is fairly regarded as a companion piece, so the two should probably be read together. But there's a mad brilliance and a sometimes even more poignant despair in his later novels, and if you haven't read a Celine book before, I think Guignol's Band could blow your mind without any need for other context. Celine already knew that he was spurned and hated by his society by this point, but then all of his books give the sense of the character/author as a hunted animal and persecuted wretch.

Hamsun showed a lot of variety in his work, but you could probably identify two major classes, the youthful individual romantic tales, and the more epic cultural novels. His first novel, Hunger, is its own slice of madness and despair, as a voice of the truly starving artist and societal outcast. Pan, and Mysteries have a bit of paganism and mystical romance in them. Growth of the Soil is in some ways an epic of economics and the growth of a society built upon the simple values of a peasant whose life can be summarized as a struggle to remove heavy rocks from the soil, while the world rapidly develops around him into something he can't understand or fully participate in.

This is based on memories of reading the books a decade or so ago, so that's the best I can manage on the spur of the moment.

Zadignose wrote: "Hmmm... let's see.

Clarissa is an epistolary novel; there's no narrative voice, it's all a collection of letters written between the characters. It's pulled off brilliantly. Letters sometimes cros..."

Good explanations for spur of the moment! Thanks!

Zadignose wrote: "Hmmm... let's see.

Clarissa is an epistolary novel; there's no narrative voice, it's all a collection of letters written between the characters. It's pulled off brilliantly. Letters sometimes cros..."

Wonderful summary of Clarissa. I don't recall reading it, so it's now on my TBR list. Thank you!

I emailed Dzanc books regarding the eBook publication schedule for Clover and McElroy. Here is the reply I got (I hope they don't mind me posting it)
Thank you for the inquiry and the excitement.

We are trying to map out the Coover titles now and should have news soon.

"McElroy is currently proofreading the eBook files for Women and Men. So we'll have that asap and Plus and The Letter Left to Me are right behind that, and Hind's Kidnap probably a month after those. Most likely April for the first trio of his (though Preparations for Search is currently available).
I'd also be remiss in not mentioning that Joseph's new novel, Cannonball, will be printing in June, along with the first paperback reprint of Ancient History, and Coover's novel (a shade shorter than McElroy's Women and Men) will publish in September."
I picked my library's copy of Women and Men today. I'm looking forward to getting the epub version on my devices.

James wrote: "I emailed Dzanc books regarding the eBook publication schedule for Clover and McElroy. Here is the reply I got (I hope they don't mind me posting it)
Thank you for the inquiry and the excitement.

..."

Great news! Please keep us posted if you hear anything else about W&M.

James wrote: "Coover's novel (a shade shorter than McElroy's Women and Men) will publish in September."

!!!! Thanks for that info.

Oooh, that's great to hear about the Dzanc e-book reprints, I've been salivating for those ever since they were first announced. Thank you very much for your initiative and for sharing the good news, James! :)

Anyone know where Preparations for Search fits into Women and Men? I'm thinking I will have to add that in when I try to tackle Women and Men.

James wrote: "Anyone know where Preparations for Search fits into Women and Men? I'm thinking I will have to add that in when I try to tackle Women and Men."

Given the structure of W&M, it's likely to be impossible to assign it a particular spot. I've not read it yet. It is intended as a stand alone piece but would perhaps gain by reading it after W&M. The Night Soul collection also has a story or two which had been destined for W&M. [we might want to move the McElroy/Coover/Dzanc discussion elsewhere than the 2014 suggestion thread--if you're interested in McElroy, I've got a group for that (supplementary to BP)]

Nathan "N.R." wrote: ", I've got a group for that (supplementary to BP).."

Is that the W&M group? Of course it is; why am I asking? I'll follow there.

But James, do add a word to this thread if you hear about a release date, etc., for W&M. Thanks!

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15...

New William Gass about to drop.

Rick wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15...

New William Gass about to drop."
I've got that one pre-ordered, now I just have to figure out a way to squeeze it into my reading schedule.

Rick wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15...

New William Gass about to drop."

We'll have to put it on the polls for October ('though I imagine many of you will be reading it later this month...)

Two ideas for themed-reads keep popping up in my thoughts. One about mental illness, and one about addiction/substances. I think they’re residual thoughts from reading Infinite Jest.

"Literature of Melancholy" might be a good title for the first idea. Fiction about mental imbalance, depression, insanity, and so on. DF Wallace’s character Kate Gompert’s first scene where she is talking to a doctor about her illness and her wish to die is absolutely brilliant writing. Possibilities:

The Anatomy of Melancholy
Moravagine
Asylum Piece

and similar books.


“Fiction about Addiction” is too cute to use as a title, but it captures the idea. Drugs and alcohol and the associated drama and tragedy makes for some great reads. Possibilities:

Confessions of an English Opium Eater
Junky
Under the Volcano
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

and so on...


Lots to work with here. Let me know what you think.

Jim wrote: "Two ideas for themed-reads keep popping up in my thoughts. One about mental illness, and one about addiction/substances. I think they’re residual thoughts from reading Infinite Jest.

"Literature o..."

I second Anatomy of Melancholy- let's tackle that beast ( why shd NR alone have the bragging rights?)& DFW referred to it in IJ.

Confession of an English Opium Eater
And/or
Under the Volcano ( I'm seeing some reviews of it on Gr lately).

Mala wrote: "I second Anatomy of Melancholy- let's tackle that beast ( why shd NR alone have the bragging rights?)& DFW referred to it in IJ..."

Agreed! At 1500 pages, we'll have to start early, and maybe even have it as a concurrent read with other related books.

I've never read William Styron, but if you want a "melancholy" theme, then maybe Darkness Visible by Styron would be a good choice.

Madness in general calls for a bit of Gogol, including Diary of a Madman.

Addiction: Well, some Bukowski for alcohol and horse betting perhaps. Maybe Women?

how about:

The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
The Double
The Year of the Death of Ricardo Reis
Baltasar and Blimunda
The History of the Siege of Lisbon


From author José Saramago. I read his novel Blindness and quickly became a fan.

He wrote a lot of magical realism based novels.

Mekki wrote: "how about:

The Gospel According to Jesus Christ
The Double
The Year of the Death of Ricardo Reis
Baltasar and Blimunda
The History of the Siege of Lisbon


From author José Saramago. I read his no..."

His books look very interesting. Which one would you recommend to start with?

Zadignose wrote: "I've never read William Styron, but if you want a "melancholy" theme, then maybe Darkness Visible by Styron would be a good choice.

Madness in general calls for a bit of Gogol, including Diary of ..."

Good suggestions, but for the Styron, I was thinking it might be better to avoid real-life confessions and instead read fiction about melancholy. I imagine if fictional depressive Kate Gompert wrote an autobiography, it would be much less engaging than Wallace's version.

I never read Bukowski. Which of his books would best fit the 'perils of excess' theme?

Hmmm, you pose a difficult challenge in your use of the superlative. Thanks to this discussion, I noticed that I somehow left 27 Bukowski books off the list of books I've read. Only six of them are novels though.

On a search, I came up with this site (http://georgedanderson.blogspot.kr/20...) which ranks Bukowski's novels and reviews several of them with detailed summaries. I was surprised to find that the blogger ranked the novels pretty much exactly as I would have done.

Women may well be the best suited to the theme, as it's certainly excessive. I'm not so sure about the "perils," part. Bukowski/Chinaski's life is certainly perilous, and in his view perhaps all life is greatly perilous... he gets a fair degree of misery out of his insane alcoholism, gambling, and womanizing, but the books aren't morality tales, so we won't come away thinking "it's so sad how alcohol ruined that poor man's life..." Rather, we'll probably blame him for the damage he wreaks. He's a hero and an anti-hero and someone who it may be very painful to identify with.

Bukowski may or may not be a good fit for the theme. Or maybe one of his many poetry collections would be an interesting alternative. Hmmm...

He's also not the kind of author who often raises his head in the literary company of the Brain Pain group, so perhaps it would be good to introduce him just because it's a challenge to our literary tastes and standards, and might really test the tolerance of our female membership. In the Bukowski universe, especially on exhibit in Women, we find three general classes of women, those who despise him, those who have sex with him, and a very large class of women who do both. In a similar way, female readers may also fall into the classes of those who despise his books, those who love his books, and those who despise his books while feeling compelled to read them and who would probably have sex with him if they could.

Zadignose wrote: "He's also not the kind of author who often raises his head in the literary company of the Brain Pain group, so perhaps it would be good to introduce him just because it's a challenge to our literary tastes and standards, and might really test the tolerance of our female membership. In the Bukowski universe, especially on exhibit in Women, we find three general classes of women, those who despise him, those who have sex with him, and a very large class of women who do both. In a similar way, female readers may also fall into the classes of those who despise his books, those who love his books, and those who despise his books while feeling compelled to read them and who would probably have sex with him if they could..."

Okay Z, you're going to have to defend that last prediction on your own, LOL!!!

I know of his work, but for some reason, when his star was rising, his books didn't sound interesting to me. Now, some decades later, we can explore whether or not his work holds up after the Mickey Rourke hype. For now, we can put Women on the list, but if you or others want to suggest alternative titles, please do.